Jump to content

People Mover may get expanded to New Center


Allan

Recommended Posts

With the new Motorcity Casino opening today, Marian Ilitch sounds like she wants some big things to happen. A mirror-second tower, if hotel is successful. National Retailers. Finally some development behind the Fox, whether it is a new arena or not. But probably the most notable thing is the fact that she wants the people mover expanded through foxtown and the Stadia to Eastern Market and Motorcity Casino. SOUNDS GOOD!!!!! Hoping...

"The MotorCity complex's directors have even grander dreams than just looking funky. Hotel Chief Executive Gregg Solomon sketched out the footprint of a second tower, a mirror to the first, that could be built if the hotel is a success. Owner Marian Ilitch spoke optimistically about adding a People Mover stop for the building, which would link it to the downtown -- and also to other Ilitch entertainment enterprises such as the Fox Theatre and the Red Wings at Joe Louis Arena."

""I think the odds are good," Ilitch said of a People Mover expansion, suggesting it could link to Eastern Market as well. "If it was expanded, it would bring us all closer together." Her remarks are noteworthy because People Mover alteration has largely been dismissed over the years as an expensive pipe dream."

"Detroit mayoral spokesman James Canning said Tuesday there are no official plans in the works to alter the People Mover route."

Going for the Bold

http://freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID.../711280314/1035

Notice he said, "Official Plans," so maybe there is something in the works. Kwame's Big Announcement anyone? :thumbsup:

Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Replies 119
  • Created
  • Last Reply

you could get light rail there for about 1/4 the price... and it would be able to tie in with the DTOGS project. The future of the region is not in small, single use oriented transit systems but rather in large scale multi-use (trip generator) systems. That is why i get a little frustrated with little ideas like dpm expansion and an airport monorail that won't really connect with anything. Believe me, I am anything but anti public transit, but I think its important to divert our limited regional resources to regional solutions rather than small distributors. Now, if she wants to pay for an expansion of the line to Greenfield, we may have something :-).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The People Mover IS light rail. I know what you mean though. I'm just as critical. But, I keep drilling myself and asking, what makes the most sense for TRAIN connectivity along the corridors? I'm almost leaning entirely against street-level rail transit along Woodward. I believe the Ww corridor has THAT much potential...and by that I mean large enough ridership numbers that will almost certainly demand that you can get from the riverfront to 8 Mile, 8 Mile to Royal Oak, and Ro to Pontiac in a reasonable amount of time. I undoubedly believe that Woodward has that type of ridership potential, and if it in fact does, street level light rail may not cut it.

That leaves elevated or below grade rail transit in their own right of way. It will be a huge investment, but one that I think people may be under estimating, again in terms of potential ridership and future corridor growth. Even w/o mass transit, people I associate w/ WANT to live along the range of the Ww Corridor.

I've run across some info that the link btw the CBD and Eastern Market will be a street car line and that is fine by me. I'm not sure how that will work in terms of expansion up Gratiot, but maybe the ultimate plan is just to connect the urban density of the city for that route. That same sourse informs that Woodward will be light rail up to 8 Mile. It won't go into the suburbs because Oakland (officials/not residents) refuse to work with peasants.

So, anyway, I'm not sure how I feel about the PM expansion. It obviously wouldn't be that great if they expanded it the way it is now, but even though I don't know much about the technology of the system, I would imagine that there might be a way to just overhaul the 80s technology up to a modern standard of electronic, elevated light rail trains. Also, I'm wondering if the stations can accomodate trains with 3 cars, as opposed to just 2?

Finally, in my fantasy world, the Ww corridor would be served by a underground rail line. It seems like it would be easy (and costly) to just open up the widths of Ww and put the system directly below it. I know it's more complicating that that, but whatever, I'm not an engineer. But, I think reality is that if rail does come to Ww, it will be w/i the street as light rail which might slow down travel times, which would affect future expansion into OC once they start crying that they're the have-nots for once. I think PM expansion might also gain strength simply because the idea has floated around public and private entities in the greater downtown, and especially since the private entity (hospitals/casinos/New Center Businesses/Cultural Center Institutions) might seem like they would be willing to foot some of the costs.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Here is my thought. The ICTS cars, while cute... can go. There time has come and gone, the reality is that the automated system really doesn't save that much money. The DPM track is standard gauge, just have the Light Rail Vehicles run on the DPM loop rather than at street level. You can sell the ICTS cars off to Vancouver or Toronto as spares (or keep them around for local loop trips). Equip the Light Rail vehicles with dual power sources like the MBTA Blue line in boston. You can operate with overhead catenary while opperating at grade and switch to third rail on the DPM tracks. I would eliminate some of the stations on the DPM and then lengthen platforms accordingly. Also, consider placing at switch at Cass and Larned and using the Cobo/JLA loop only during special events or run a loop train for downtown/downtown trips.

I agree with your hunch on woodward. The only thing holding me back is that there is so much damn width on that road, its almost too easy to go with LRT. I'd be very curious to see what sort of utility conflicts might exist below Woodward (i'm going record plan hunting tomorrow at work... so curious!). The good news is that I doubt you'd have to go that deep. Probably 50 feet max. Due to street redundancy, you can probably just close Woodward during construction and do cut/cover versus tunnel boring... probably cheaper.

I'm not surprised at all about your info on the Gratiot extension, i begrudgingly accept that this may be the option DTOGS uses. Gratiot SMART busses see very high ridership (highest in the system). I believe DDOT also does well on this route. Michigan Avenue, while my choice, sees pretty dismal ridership on the Michigan Line. Poor ridership is a good way to shoot your new starts FTA application in the foot.

And Woodward to 8-mile? Couldn't resist the pull of Ferndale and Royal Oak I gather. No surprises there.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The future of the region is not in small, single use oriented transit systems but rather in large scale multi-use (trip generator) systems. That is why i get a little frustrated with little ideas like dpm expansion and an airport monorail that won't really connect with anything. Believe me, I am anything but anti public transit, but I think its important to divert our limited regional resources to regional solutions rather than small distributors. Now, if she wants to pay for an expansion of the line to Greenfield, we may have something :-).
Link to comment
Share on other sites

No, I think OC govt is that much of a beotch. Seriously though, they had L. Brook's spokesman on the other day (I think on Detroit Today) saying that OC is too spread out for mass transit and that it's a waste of money. This, after L. Brooks himself playing along w/ the regional strategy. What's the truth behind OC's transit position? My take is that they are against a regional co-op, but in favor of the plans intra-county; like the B-ham-Troy transit line.

I would seriously love to see underground Woodward at least studied. St. Louis can do it (maybe not to an 8 mile extent), so why can't we?

Btw, what is ITCS, tapezord?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

icts is the technology that the dpm uses... basically it refers to linear induction vehicles (vehicles that pull themselves along rather than using traction motors like typical transit like LRT, subway, commuter rail).

Oakland is actually becoming more and more split, at least in terms of the Oakland County Commission. You certainly won't see the DTOGS extend into Ferndale, but what I do see happening is immense pressure with the train stopping right at the border. Its probably almost like a, hey... c'mon and get it. Its right here! The nice thing about DTOGS is that it is pretty much independent of the region, but I think we as a region all recognize that this line is the right thing to do.

As for OC's rationale on their true position, I have no idea. I wouldn't look too far past what your hunches may be. The disinterest in cooperating is childish at best. I assume it probably comes down to where you view the future of the county. Is it in the Royal Oaks, Ferndales and Birminghams or in Groveland, Oakland and Orion? I'm sure that LBP likes the latter. Easier to drive around drunk in the sticks.

I think this has to do with business interests.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

My biggest concern (and this is just me and my gut speaking) is the FUNDING PROPOSAL. Funding is one mountain, but the proposal and the convincing of the FTA to fund YOUR project is like stacking 10 Mt. Everests on top of one another.

Do we (whoever "we" is) have the ability to convince the Fed. Govt. that our proposal is thee most fund-worthy project compared to other REGIONS who are competing against us for funding? The problem with "us" is fragmentation. It seems like everytime you turn around, someone/somewhere in this region is proposing mass transit; separate and independent of one another. DTOGS, PM extension, Troy-Bham, AA-Det. Commuter Rail, AA-Howell, airport monorail loop, etc...I'm sure there's more.

This weakens our ability to compete. Other regions bring the strength of regional cooperation to the table, while we may bring loud voices, and not only lack other to join the table, but additionally burdonsome is that those missing people come to the table later on with their own projects!

This is what I mean by speaking for myself and from my gut. I may be completely off base, but this is where I feel that we are weakest. If transit is a process from A - Z, I feel like we aren't following the proper protocol to get past A (funding).

Even if we did have regional cooperation, there are 2 Oakland Counties (north and south) and much of OC is becoming Livingston; further separating the cohesion.

This is why I think DTOGs is our best bet so far. It says t'hell with everything, we're going to treat the city of Detroit comprehensively as its own animal and we're going to expect the fed. gov. to treat us as such. They need to create the authority that will oversee the system (assuming that is already in place as DDOT), and they need to cross every t and dot every i to make sure that their proposal can trump all others (Phoenix, Charlotte, Dallas, etc) to get the funding we need to make this happen. This is why Woodward is without a doubt, route #1. If and when it stops at 8 Mile, you can bet that OC will take notice of the affects and all of a sudden there is instant regionalism centered around Woodward and 8 Mile. Since Ww connects south OC to north OC, it becomes more strategic that even the 2 sides of OC cooperate so that both ends are serviced by transit.

All this is total bs on my behalf. I'm just saying what I think I know! ;)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I would think that if Detroit were to get a subway along Woodward, it would only really need to go as far as McNichols. From there it could run at grade in the center median to 8 Mile and eventually into southeastern Oakland County. The total route is about 7 miles which is shorter (nearly by half) than the subway line that runs beneath Broad St in Philadelphia.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yes, well he was loitering, which is illegal. What the manager did was illegal as well, but the enforcement of the law was reactionary and not proactionary.

Loitering is illegal because it is trespassing and people, including myself stay away from businesses who tolerate bums. In fact, when I first moved to Det. in 2004, after work, I went to the KFC on Grand Blvd across from Henry Ford Hospital, to sit down and eat after a busy day. There was a bum who harrassed me on the other side of the window and then came into the restaurant and stood at my table after I told him to leave countless times. Once he sat down across from me, I took my tray, placed it on the counter, took my food outside (past another bum in the foyer who wanted money), went to my car, locked the doors, and ate my meal.

I was the only customer in the restaurant (I wonder why), except for the employees behind the counter who were too busy chatting with the neighborhood posse who were blocking the counter area. At least they were hollering at the bum to leave me along and to get out of the building. Instead, the paying customer had to leave. They didn't even say sorry as I left.

Anyway, that's off topic! :)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I would assume the stops in Highland Park would be at Woodland St on the southern border, Glendale St to serve "downtown", Manchester St to serve the "Model T Plaza" area, and McNichols Rd to serve the northern border. Each stop is spaced about 1/2 apart and is accessible to nearly the entire city.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

That would be awesome if the DPM got extended. Maybe one day it will be as cool as Vancouver, BC's Sky Train. Same technology with 30 miles of track.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SkyTrain_%28Vancouver%29

I would like to see the DPM go over to Windsor. I think that a PM extension to Windsor would be a great alternative to another bridge. Metrolink in St Louis goes to Illinois, crossing a river. I think it's very possible if the Canadian and US governments work together like St. Louis and Illinois did. Plus this would give Canadians a good way to get to cheaper flights around America via Metro Airport!!! Do it! Do it!

There's my pipe dream for ya.... :)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I would think that if Detroit were to get a subway along Woodward, it would only really need to go as far as McNichols. From there it could run at grade in the center median to 8 Mile and eventually into southeastern Oakland County. The total route is about 7 miles which is shorter (nearly by half) than the subway line that runs beneath Broad St in Philadelphia.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

That is true if you want to look at the current conditions, but eventually if the line is built, TOD will be developed near the stations. Granted, even in this declined state, much of the Woodward corridor through Detroit has a density in the 7,500-10,000 ppsm range. Even if a gentrified corridor were to only double the population density, it would definitely be enough to warrant a subway. After all, if you were to create a separate on-street light rail right of way, it would leave Woodward with only two lanes in each direction and no left-turn lane or on-street parking. In fact, I think Woodward south of Grand Blvd is actually wider than it is between Grand Blvd and McNichols.

Also, the Central Woodward corridor (the area bounded by McNichols, Oakland, Grand Blvd, and Hamilton) has a population of nearly 28,000 in 3.7 sq. mi. The Lower Woodward corridor (the area bounded by Grand Blvd, I-75, M-10 and the river) has a population of about 24,000 in 4.1 sq. mi. So while the employment base is much larger along the Lower Woowdard corridor, the population density is actually much lower. When you consider that Highland Park at one time had nearly 60,000 residents you can make the case that if you build for density it could possibly achieve that again. It won't be in the form of single-family homes as it was in the 1930's, but it could happen if the developments you see going into Royal Oak are built.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

BTW, here is a map I made showing the route from a future transit center on the site of Cobo Arena to the McNichols Rd station. Each stop (shown as a red dot) is about 1/2 mile apart. Hamilton Ave and Oakland Ave serve as the western and eastern "edges" for the Central Woodward Corridor, while the two highways serve as the "edges' for the Lower Woodward Corridor. You can see the CWC outlined in a heavy black line. The blue lines represent the halfway point between each station. Each blue rectange is more or less 1/2 square mile in size. The numbers in blue are the population and density of each of the blue rectangles.

woodwardsubway.jpg

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Cool! Fun to see the population/density break down. And the ones with low population/density have a lot of jobs there too, so I think it's a good line. The only thing I'd have to say is that a station should be at the train station at New Center too.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

A better idea would be to move it back to MCS in Corktown and get some hotel developer to ay for most of it and occupy the upper floors. We do not need a new train station when we have one of the finest examples of such just waiting for re-birth.

Also, what is with this talk about the former cobo area site? The building is still there, and there hasn't been any anounced plans to do so.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

By using this site you agree to our Terms of Use and Privacy Policy. We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue.