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Retail Downtown


GRDadof3

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I'd rather not make one huge indoor shopping mall downtown. I've been to Circle Center, and it is pretty well-done, but I don't think we need to copy it. Anchors don't necessarily need to be in the same development, we just need some downtown. Whether that's part of a mall or not doesn't make a difference.

What I'd really like to see is a tower on the corner of Market and Fulton with ground floor retail facing the street, but also a few levels of shopping inside. Then maybe 40 floors of offices and condos above that. For bonus points it could have a number of floors of underground parking and a subway station. :) Do pretty much the same thing at Lyon and Ottawa. Get a large retailer in each like Macy's or Nordstrom's and we've got anchors with Monroe Center right in between.

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I'd rather not make one huge indoor shopping mall downtown. I've been to Circle Center, and it is pretty well-done, but I don't think we need to copy it. Anchors don't necessarily need to be in the same development, we just need some downtown. Whether that's part of a mall or not doesn't make a difference.

What I'd really like to see is a tower on the corner of Market and Fulton with ground floor retail facing the street, but also a few levels of shopping inside. Then maybe 40 floors of offices and condos above that. For bonus points it could have a number of floors of underground parking and a subway station. :) Do pretty much the same thing at Lyon and Ottawa. Get a large retailer in each like Macy's or Nordstrom's and we've got anchors with Monroe Center right in between.

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You know, I was just thinking the same thing that maybe we need to back this truck up a bit.

- A MASSIVE mall downtown will require MASSIVE amounts of parking. I read that Circle Centre has 12,000 parking ramp spaces within a block of it. Who wants that.

- Both CC and Providence Place took 10 - 15 years to develop, were well over $350 Million, in an age where malls are becoming increasingly obsolete. There were only a few malls built in the U.S. last year. Most are going to lifestyle centers. Do we want to revamp 1/2 of downtown for a business model that's dying?

- A large mall will require complete revamping of the exits into downtown, street layout, and a bunch of other non-pedestrian friendly changes.

- GRTP, what that consultant failed to recognize is that people, in addition to buying what they NEED, also go out and buy what they WANT. Look at Saugatuck, or downtown Charlevoix. There's not one thing in either that I need, but we spend a lot of money in those towns.

Just a thought.

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I'm not sure that malls are dying. Lifestyle centers may be the new fad, but all they are is a mall without a roof. They're probably cheaper to build and operate than an enclosed mall. Also you're examples of Saugatuck and Charlevoix (and I'd add Grand Haven, Traverse City, Petoskey, and Harbor Springs) are primarily tourist-based downtowns. They wouldn't be so healthy if they relied on just the local population. Grand Rapids isn't a tourist destination, so we need a more utilitarian selection of stores for downtown shopping to be successful here. Not that we can't have fu-fu shops, we just can't only have fu-fu shops.

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I'm not sure that malls are dying. Lifestyle centers may be the new fad, but all they are is a mall without a roof. They're probably cheaper to build and operate than an enclosed mall. Also you're examples of Saugatuck and Charlevoix (and I'd add Grand Haven, Traverse City, Petoskey, and Harbor Springs) are primarily tourist-based downtowns. They wouldn't be so healthy if they relied on just the local population. Grand Rapids isn't a tourist destination, so we need a more utilitarian selection of stores for downtown shopping to be successful here. Not that we can't have fu-fu shops, we just can't only have fu-fu shops.
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I think that the discussion has gone in a good direction. The thought of creating a consolidated mall-like retail establishment is probably not very realistic, but also not really required. I think one or two well placed anchors could begin to spur other independent development. If a real anchor could be placed on the corner of Fulton and Division, I suspect that other things would fall into place, maybe the other side of Division could accomodate another national retailer, who knows.

The problem is actually getting that anchor. I have no doubts that a Crate and Barrel or Room and Board could accomodate one of these locations on multiple stories, they have proven that they can handle this type of urban site. But why would they locate there? DT could not make a book store viable and the other retail comparibles are non-existent. Little Bohemia doesn't count, what else is downtown that would make the people who do site selection HAVE to locate DTGR?

I would have to think that the developers for Division and Fulton have looked into getting a national retailer and have found no takers.

GRDad- People do buy what they want in addition to what they need, but I think one goes before the other. First you have to get people coming DT to buy what they need and then the more impulse stuff will feed off from that. The model of Saugutuck or Charlevoix will not work for our downtown - it needs more, and those towns feed off from the tourism dollar, a demographic that we can not expect, Murdicks fudge and the boating clothing stores will not work here. I think that the neighborhood retail areas (along the old street car lines) can accomodate the more boutique stuff - Wealthy Street, Fulton Street, Cherry Street, etc. This stuff is already happening and seems to have a better retail presence than downtown. Cherry-Diamond-Lake seems much more viable retail wise than our downtown!!

When we think of Chicago, we always talk about Michigan Avenue, but what about the more boutique shops along Oakes. There is a Bang and Olufsen store, a couple cool little music shops - some real high-end niche stuff that has a different demographic and I wonder if it could survive without the huge influx of national retail along Michigan Ave?

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I think that the discussion has gone in a good direction. The thought of creating a consolidated mall-like retail establishment is probably not very realistic, but also not really required. I think one or two well placed anchors could begin to spur other independent development. If a real anchor could be placed on the corner of Fulton and Division, I suspect that other things would fall into place, maybe the other side of Division could accomodate another national retailer, who knows.

The problem is actually getting that anchor. I have no doubts that a Crate and Barrel or Room and Board could accomodate one of these locations on multiple stories, they have proven that they can handle this type of urban site. But why would they locate there? DT could not make a book store viable and the other retail comparibles are non-existent. Little Bohemia doesn't count, what else is downtown that would make the people who do site selection HAVE to locate DTGR?

I would have to think that the developers for Division and Fulton have looked into getting a national retailer and have found no takers.

GRDad- People do buy what they want in addition to what they need, but I think one goes before the other. First you have to get people coming DT to buy what they need and then the more impulse stuff will feed off from that. The model of Saugutuck or Charlevoix will not work for our downtown - it needs more, and those towns feed off from the tourism dollar, a demographic that we can not expect, Murdicks fudge and the boating clothing stores will not work here. I think that the neighborhood retail areas (along the old street car lines) can accomodate the more boutique stuff - Wealthy Street, Fulton Street, Cherry Street, etc. This stuff is already happening and seems to have a better retail presence than downtown. Cherry-Diamond-Lake seems much more viable retail wise than our downtown!!

When we think of Chicago, we always talk about Michigan Avenue, but what about the more boutique shops along Oakes. There is a Bang and Olufsen store, a couple cool little music shops - some real high-end niche stuff that has a different demographic and I wonder if it could survive without the huge influx of national retail along Michigan Ave?

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For what you are talking about GR8-town, something that will rival any mall we currently have, put the lifestyle centers out of business, and draw people from around the state, it would need to be something similar to Mall of America. What purpose would that serve being downtown? I seriously think the automobile impact on downtown with something like that would far outweigh any benefits it would bring. In addition, who would finance and build such a venture? I don't know, that doesn't excite me in the least.

BTW: The 12,000 parking ramp spaces also includes parking ramps to the South, West and East of the mall according to the descriptions I read.

If you want to read the most frustrating article ever, here is the history of Circle Centre. They certainly didn't leave downtown Indianapolis unscathed:

occidental.jpg

excavation.jpg

I'm just not a big "mall" fan, so I can't see how going through 15 years of that would be worth it.

I keep going back to the Urban Meijer idea at Area 4/5. It would certainly provide things that people need, like groceries and necessities. That and a couple of other retail anchors might be enough to get things rolling again.

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Big, indoor, downtown malls like the Circle Center in Indy are rarely successful. The City Center Mall in downtown Columbus can be hardly considered a success. More like a giant grey eyesore on the southside of town. Same can be said for St. Louis Centre, which cost $95MM in 1985 and is now dead.

Street level shopping with distinct national retailers that are selling what consumers want is what's best for DT GR--places selling the staples (office supplies/groceries/pharmacy) next to popular consumer products (Crate & Barrel, Ann Taylor, Apple).

Still critical is the parking problem--perhaps incorporating validation into the price of goods (as the suburbs do) or as a city sales tax so it seems "free" to buyers.

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For what you are talking about GR8-town, something that will rival any mall we currently have, put the lifestyle centers out of business, and draw people from around the state, it would need to be something similar to Mall of America. What purpose would that serve being downtown? I seriously think the automobile impact on downtown with something like that would far outweigh any benefits it would bring. In addition, who would finance and build such a venture? I don't know, that doesn't excite me in the least.

BTW: The 12,000 parking ramp spaces also includes parking ramps to the South, West and East of the mall according to the descriptions I read.

If you want to read the most frustrating article ever, here is the history of Circle Centre. They certainly didn't leave downtown Indianapolis unscathed:

occidental.jpg

excavation.jpg

I'm just not a big "mall" fan, so I can't see how going through 15 years of that would be worth it.

I keep going back to the Urban Meijer idea at Area 4/5. It would certainly provide things that people need, like groceries and necessities. That and a couple of other retail anchors might be enough to get things rolling again.

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"I seriously think the automobile impact on downtown with something like that would far outweigh any benefits it would bring. In addition, who would finance and build such a venture? I don't know, that doesn't excite me in the least."

God forbid those pesky automobiles, Look downtown NYC, Chicago, LA they don't have any cars.

"who would finance and build such a venture?"

Someone with the money to make more.

"that doesn't excite me in the least"

Well hey then you can allways just go to Jimmy Johns and Little Bohemia insted?

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Just like what happens in any mid-sized city that does not have an extensive mass transit system, 99.5% of the people who go to the mall will drive there. Take Rivertown Parkway's 30 - 40,000 cars a day and drop them on downtown GR and see what happens. Yikes! The traffic going to the arena does not even come close to the impact that a mall would have. Then those people will complain about the traffic and parking, and more buildings will be torn down to make way for another parking garage, or to expand a street to get to the mall. And for what? So people can buy a pair of overpriced GAP jeans?

I am not against change, but there are some changes that are not worth having, IMO. There is a HUGE spectrum of retail experiences between the current Little Bohemia/Jimmy John's, and Mall of America/Circle Centre. I'd take Ann Arbor's Main Street over any mall downtown: http://www.mlive.com/aanews/video/flash/in..._livelydowntown

I like Greedo's line of thinking. :thumbsup: I definitely think a Lyon & Ottawa complex with some nice retail anchors would do a lot, as well as something significant at Fulton & Division.

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Everything always boils down to parking...free parking. This is unfortunate and as long as we continue to view free parking as a god-given right to being an American, then we can not expect our cities to become the places that we all fantasize about. Remember, when Jan Gehl was here that his take was that we have about twice as much asphalt as we need in our downtown. But yet many clamor for more...not less. So far, I have yet to see any proof that creating more makes for better places, it seems that more actually makes worse places, ie- Los Angeles.

As far as the retail question, retail will always (well maybe in the short term) require parking or the perception of parking. So for street level retail to work there will, at minimum, need to be the appearance of street parking along the entire street of retail (like what happened at Monroe Center-although that may be used by other users other than retail users - a potential problem)...there will also need to be structures to accomodate the major parking requirements - we seem to have that covered, with another 300+ spots coming soon with the new Rockford/City ramp. There should absolutely not be any surface lots in the DT -ever. The ones that are there need to be completely developed.

But to take the parking issue further, there are very progressive cities, like Portland, Oregon and Seattle, Washington that are changing the way they code for parking and I find this to be an intrigueing approach, because again clearly providing more does not work in place-making. Most of this change is occurring in the residential market, where many new residential projects have NO off-street parking.

Last year Seattle reduced parking requirements for multifamily housing in three of the city

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"You're not seriously comparing GR to NYC, Chicago and LA?"

NO but to say that

"I seriously think the automobile impact on downtown with something like that would far outweigh any benefits"

is insane. What hapened when they shut down the S curve did the world come to an end? NO

The last time I checked the mall of America was suburban, and not Urban.

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Why is that "insane"? What are the positives of having a "mega-mall" downtown? What are the negatives? It's hardly insane, it'd be like dropping a bomb on downtown. That's just not something I'd want to see. I want downtown's progress to be "greatly improved", not "rewritten from scratch".

I'm not saying it can't or shouldn't be done, but it's not something I'm enthusiastic about.

I agree GRTP that mass transit needs to be pushed hard now, because it will take decades to get a metro-wide system built. We need to leave that gift to future generations who choose to make Grand Rapids their home, instead of the current gift that we are wrapping for them (auto-dominated mono-culture I believe you called it :D ).

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many times we have discussed the "which comes first: the chicken or the egg" in regards to people/retail in DT proper. In all honesty I believe it is beginning to pan out. This year alone the number of condo's in DT are incresing by 1100!!! that could DOUBLE DT proper population. So the solution to the chicken/egg problem is people come and retail will follow. We need patience; lets ride this boom while we can. Retail is on its way.

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Not to get too far off the currect topic, but in the minutes for the city commission there is a agenda item about the city center ramp development. while asking for an extension to the development agreement with Second Story to help the UICA get its finances lined up to move in, they also mention they are in negotiations with 2 national retailers for the remaining space. This could possibly provide an anchor for what you guys are discussing, because the square feet of retail is fairly good sized.

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