Bushnell park rape -- it didn't happen

[HartfordTycoon]

I shouldn't start in on this one again!! I had put this topic to rest. Anyway, I totally repsect where you're coming from Tycoon, but I have a couple of thoughts.

Bikers do look tough, and they're trying to. But the stereotypes have gone by the wayside because very little violence by that demographic ("tough looking bikers") is reported. I think a major issue in American culture right now is the vicious cycle perpetuating the view that folks who sport a certain kind of urban dress commit crimes. (And I don't know how to really define this, but I take your point that there is a difference between nice looking baggy jeans and whatnot and what you and I would both have to agree is a "thug" look ... I'm talking about the latter.)

That is the message sent by a lot of rap and hip-hop performers, who pretty much look how JayHass described. Meanwhile they're talking about doing drugs and pimpin hos and killing their rivals! Now, obviously, the most naive among us will draw the conclusion that these stereotypes apply to every kid in the inner city. But, meanwhile, we're experiencing a surge in violent crimes committed by youth--who often match the stereotype. So when somebody sees a tough-looking biker they think, "ohh that biker looks tough!" But when they pass the kid with the gold teeth, the hoodie, and the xxl jacket they think, "that kid is tough." Is the solution only one-way? Are folks from the burbs supposed to continue to be bombarded by the images they see in the media but not buy into them?

Like it or not--and I don't, I promise--first impressions are so hugely important and, while we should condemn those who stereotype and harbor prejudice, many of them also employ people!! It's just a fact of life. A colleague of mine used to have pink hair and a nose ring, and she hated the fact just as much, but she took out the piercing and died the hair back to normal. It's not only about how you go to work, but how you carry yourself every day b/c you might bump into a client, prospective client or colleague. I just think that blaming the majority's ignorance doesn't actually get us anywhere because it doesn't defeat the stereotype.

With all due respect--and honestly, Tycoon, I say this with tremendous respect for your views and background--one of my most powerful experiences was attending the Amistad Foundation gala at the Wadsworth a couple summers ago because I had never seen so many exquisitely dressed black people in one place at the same time. It was a stereotype crusher. I think Hartford's kids could use a few more of those.

[Whaler0718]

There's actually been a lot of biker gang activity in CT recently from what I hear. The feds are also trying to bring them down currently for organized crime, you know gun running, drug smuggling, ect. That is what those guys are up to, or did you not realize they were actually still criminals.

[HartfordTycoon]

I didn't know that.

But it doesn't change my point. I haven't seen any music videos with bikers recently. I don't mean to sound trite, but perception is important. Also, there are lots of men in business suits who commit serious crimes (Enron etc.) but it's the difference between running guns and having one pointed at you that I think makes people fear bikers less and kids from Hartford more. I know the problem is much much bigger than clothes, but I'm just offering a view from the perspective of somebody who spent his first 17 years in an insulated, privileged bubble--and there are a lot of us out there. I'm just being realistic.

Seriously, if you get the chance, read Enough by Juan Williams. I'm not saying he'll convince you. In fact, maybe you can convince me he's wrong. But it's a really interesting book all the way around. He's gotten a lot of praise and a lot of criticism.

[JayHass]

That's not what he's saying at all. If you notice he says as long as you are dressed appropriately, indicating there is a time and place for certain attire. There is absolutely no need though for anyone to feel that casual clothing needs to be set to some standard. I don't wear certain styles because they look stupid to me, and even my business and business casual attire is a reflection of myself as I'm sure yours are. All I'm saying is don't expect me to put on a tight pair of jeans and some dirty old sneakers when I'm just about town running errands. That's not my style nor most in the young urban demographic. I do agree that some people dress to intimidate. It is also not a black or urban thing. Just look at many biker looking or blue collar white people in CT's more redneckish areas and they look pretty damn rough if you ask me. If they have a right to walk around looking tough, then everyone does and most of what is considered urban fashion has nothing to do with a thug image anyway.

[HartfordTycoon]

I understand what you are saying and don't totally disagree but to be blunt, I find his remark borderline racist.

What so "urban" and "black" males can ONLY dress in hip hop/thug wear? Really? Hmm. I would think there are many urban black professionals that would take issue with that comment. Same for the urban spanish and/or white folks. I can think of a lot of "artsy" types who are metrosexual in their dress. Are they not "real" blacks or "really urban" because of it?

Since when does "urban" equal only "thug life"? See what I"m getting at?

Edit: I just read through the following posts to the quote above and I think we are all on the same page for the most part. P.S. I really appreciate Juan's insight. I used to like it when him and Tony Snow would debate.

[Whaler0718]

We are on the same page. Of course everyone of every color is free to wear whatever styles they like. If you don't want to be deemed a thug or criminal, wear it neatly and treat people with respect in the way you present yourself. Urban does not only equal thug life at all and there are many various forms of urban fashion.

[doz180]

There's actually been a lot of biker gang activity in CT and across the nation recently from what I hear.

[Afro Saxon]

Sure, why set a standard. Who cares. Dress how you want, it doesn't matter. In fact I think I'll show up to work in my around the house leisure clothes. Hey I can make a great argument that I'll be more productive that way.

How you present yourself DOES matter. No one is going to take you seriously if you show up for a job interview without a proper handle on the English language, 14lbs of gold on your teeth, clothes 14 times the size they should be, with a doo rag on your head while you slump in your chair looking hard. Toss in a lip smack now and again and you got a real shot at getting the job.

Stereotypes do not grow out of the woodwork, they come from some form of truth. People adhere and embrace certain stereotypes to generally FIT into a certain stereo type. This is very basic.

As Whaler0718 said, why would you want to associate yourself with a certain "stereotype" if you don't live that kind of life?

[JayHass]

Did you read my post or get defensive and try to respond with more idiotic stereotype based opinions. I clearly said "as long as its appropriate". This is the problem, people talking about which they don't know. Stereotypes exist for the ignorant who like rant about things and pretend they actually have a basis for what they are saying. Street or casual wear isn't appropriate at interviews, and people don't wear it in such situations. So that makes a good percentage of your post pointless, asinine actually.

As of now there aren't any standards in dress really. Just different styles. How many people have I've seen, in square toed Kenneth Cole crap , paired with what they purchased from The Men Warehouse or where ever their cheap suits come from, countless. Its not really about standards it about style if you don''t like a style don't wear it, and don't get online and promote ignorant stereotypes.

[Afro Saxon]

Stereo types I know nothing about? Listen Mr "Afro". You would probably be scared in the neighborhood I grew up in. I was raised in the ghetto of ghetto's by a single mom who had her own "issues" - in the slums back when single moms were outcasts. I fought my way off the school bus more than not when I felt like going to school. Don't tell me I don't know "urban" or that I have some kind of bias. That is bullsh!t.

I chose to make a difference in my life and realized that there IS a standard in this world and more so in this country on how civil, professional people live and I did what I had to not to be another statistic, and for the most part suceeded but I never forgot where I came from and never lost sight of who I am at my core.

If wearing a Men's Warehouse suit is what it takes...so be it. If you think it's petty, so be it. But there IS a standard out there, like it or not and it's not "evil" or something to "rebel against" it's a goal. My goal in life is not to be a stoned out of my head "thug" with three kids on state assitance and no future. You know how it is Mr "Afro", I mean since you are so in touch with the "hood". Tell me how and when did it become "good" to be "bad"?

H&ll I visted a friend back "there" and asked how his new child was doing...the response "bad as hell, man - bad as hell" he said proudly. Well, I'm not one to mince words and told him straight out how I felt about that and gave him a reality check...we had a long in-depth conversaton. Hopefully he will see there is more to life than "thuggin" and "reputation".

Get the chip off your shoulder and learn to call what is "is" so you, this country, and city can heal and move forward.

[Luca Brasi]

Society has set standards for everything from language to dress to behavior, etc. When one decides to rebel against these standards that person is going to be viewed differently. I don't know how anyone can argue that or get upset about it - isn't that the whole reason for rebelling to begin with? To break some sort of standard set by society and to set yourself apart?

If you decide you want to dress like a gang-bangin thug, a biker, a skinhead or a Marilyn Manson wannabe, don't turn around and cry that society views you differently and how unfair and stereotypical it is. By emulating the rebelious images you see on TV, you better be prepared to accept the attitudes from others that are sure to follow. The world isn't going to change for you.

[JayHass]

Whats does this have to do with clothes exactly? You still haven't made a valid point on why people who prefer urban should not wear it. Your Job point was easily shot down now your rambling about what neighborhood you grew up in. So to got back to your original point. Why should people change their style of dress because of ignorant stereotyping? I know plenty professionals who wear hip hop clothes on their off time. I'm a college student at a local college and most of my Black and some of my white peers wear urban gear, and these are largely prep school kids. Anyone who thinks they are thugs would be an idiot, but apparently you would.

You mention standards, which is why I mention Menswarehouse, because they make cheap and trashy suits, but they are acceptable because they are of the proper style to business in, unless you work on Wall street. I used that point to illustrate its not standards its about style, big difference.

[MadVlad]

I have sleeves of tattoos and I'm used to getting stared at. Sometimes I forget and get angry when someone is staring at me, then I remember and realize it's my own damned fault. Girls with big juggs that wear low-cut blouses get stared at. Some mind, some don't but they shouldn't have worn that shirt if they didn't want people to stare at their chests. People love to complain about reaping what they sow.

[Afro Saxon]

It's in response to your post that I"m some "clueless" "white boy" from the suburbs with preconcieved ideas of what "urban" is. Like momma always told me...never ASSume.

Once you get out of school, you might see the world differently. For now, I'm not going to banter back and forth on basic life principles. Enjoy your XXXL shirts while you can, it's a whole different set of rules in the real world.

Luca said it perfectly so I find no need to add to it.

[MadVlad]

I didn't think you were White and I thought you were from Manchester so I didn't assume you were from the suburbs, or rich and disconnected suburbs I should say. Actually you have no idea how much "real world experience" I have, silly to even attempt to assume. There are these things called internships, other things called jobs. Sometime I even venture out on the street and talk to people, I just might have mentors and parents. Not sure why the real world is a stranger to anyone. Basic life principles? Yet you haven't manage to master them. You know what makes people successful? Education, connections, ambition, skill, intelligence, not clothes silly. And they wonder why American citizens are falling behind, too superficial, no real concept of what it really takes to succeed. The problem your probably aren't successful and have no real concept on how to be because you assume there are silly rules in place and that if you follow them Bill Gates or whoever will come down and reward you, unfortunately its not the case. I know for a fact you are wrong through personal experience. Now I ask you to prove, someone was fired from their high paying position for wearing XXXL shirts on the weekend? No evidence require just give me an example. Luca's point was as asinine as yours, you can't dress like a thug. You can only be one. So while your living in this fairy tale that your apart of the elites, my peers from a top ranked school will get good jobs and wear what they like on the weekends, my future brother inlaw will remain a CPA who does the same on weekends and so on and so forth.

Why do you assume I wear baggy shirts? Because I'm defending what should be common sense? I'm actually an adherent of AmerTrad in regards to clothes, nothing particularly Urban about it.

[JayHass]

Let's make it easy.

And example of "urban" wear that 99% of people wouldn't think twice about this guy NOT being a "thug":

Thug wear:

Are we clear now?

Cool.

[Afro Saxon]

I think you are in denial. Clothes are not just clothes. You totally misread what he said. He never said anyone would be fired for wearing over-sized clothes on the weekends. What he did say was they would never get the job in the first place if they showed up dressed like a thug with over-sized clothes, a doo-rag, and gold teeth. People are indeed judged by their clothing and look, whether it is right or wrong is irrelevant. It's reality. Wow, this is really off topic....

[MadVlad]

It's already been established, we were speaking about casual situations, as it would be inappropriate to wear urban or any casual clothing to an interview.

So you position is someone who wear urban clothes on the weekend will not be hired as an professional?

[Luca Brasi]

Luca's point was as asinine as yours, you can't dress like a thug. You can only be one.

[Afro Saxon]

"You can't dress like a thug. You can only be one...???" God help you if you ever run into a transvestite.

Whatever tough guy - no need to continue discussion with people who barge into the message board and immediately throw around insults and aren't mature enough to respect others views and opinions.