Indoor Waterpark Resort Downtown

[PR-15]

Wow, it took 46 posts this time for the Mackie's World card to be played. I think that's a new record on this board. You do realize that was a decade ago? In addition, AJ's was an outdoor waterpark, in a climate that sees 3.5 months of favorable outdoor waterpark weather.

The downtown condo market slowdown has a lot more to do with the general health of the Michigan job market than anything else. In fact, several of the downtown projects, even though slow now, are still far outselling their suburban condo counterparts.

But how that has anything to do with the discussion is beyond me.

[jbr12]

I work with a number of families in the area that would definitely prefer a local water park over having to drive 2 1/2 - 3 hours to get to one. Don't you folks think this would also be a draw for people OUTSIDE of the metro to bring people in? Even people from Chicago might come this far to get away from the 'big city' and if they have a family, would pick the water park hotel over anything else downtown. Having things for little ones to do will generally win out over normal hotels for families

[GRDadof3]

Well, I'm convinced...let's build a water park on the Days Inn property. I'm certain all of West Michigan/Michigan will come and spend a $1000 for a weekend...and do it 3-4 times a year and sustain that interest over a 10-15 year period.

On another note, Cereal City USA in Battle Creek just closed...due to lack of interest and not lacking of cartoonish characters to market the property. How's the Air Museum doing? Our zoos?

[Grand Rapidian]

I know I am late for the conversation of the water park.

My only thought is that it would be good as long as it doesn't hurt the already struggling city pools.

[PR-15]

It's not $1000 a weekend if it's local. And of course I'm not certain it would work, and market studies would need to be done, but to continue to compare any kind of family-oriented venture downtown to a ridiculous children's mall that had never been done anywhere before by a couple with no retail experience, with a lackluster tenant list, poorly finished interior, a stone's throw away from bums urinating on themselves and prostitutes (at the time) is silly. I really hope local commercial bankers don't use this Mackie's World argument to deny funding. How about bringing up the fact that Rivertown Crossings brings in about 10 million visitors a year? Or are we only using failures for comparison here?

In addition, our zoo needs to be greatly improved if it wants to be sustainable and be a bigger attraction. Cereal City? What kid in their right mind wants to go watch cereal being made?

Let's take that to a logical next step. No more high-rises downtown because Lyon and Ottawa was never built. Or let's not try anything because there is the possibility of failure.

Got any other valid arguments against? I'd actually love to hear some.

[GRDadof3]

I'm not actually arguing against a well-studied plan with a well-funded water park operator who has a passion and proven track record with family oriented amusements. That would be great to see take off.

My main point was cautioning that the idea that all a community needs is a family oriented attraction and we can watch the money roll in. I don't know for sure but the Air Zoo is a pretty high tech place with a pretty substantial ticket price for a family of 4-8 to affordably go and enjoy...I don't think it's doing that great...I could be wrong.

I agree with an earlier post about Great Wolf being primarily for people to escape the city. I just am not ready to say that people here in W. Mich would use it regularly if there is a substantial ticket price to get in...undoubtably it would have a decent amusement park type entry fee.

The economy is tough and it's hitting families all over the state...the primary audience/user for a water park. I just don't see a consistent local audience for this type of thing at a decent entry fee. It may not need locals to sustain it but I doubt it.

[joeDowntown]

Here here, GrDad. Maybe we should move this to it's own topic? I think the whole Waterpark thread has a lot of merit, no matter what they do with the Days Inn (which I am also very excited about, in lieu of our wild tangent

I hope someone with deep pockets is scratching their head right now saying "You know, this would work".

Think of Area 4, Area 5 as a live/work/entertainment district like the Theatre proposal and it has tremendous opportunities for downtown.

Joe

[Raildudes dad]

It's not $1000 a weekend if it's local. And of course I'm not certain it would work, and market studies would need to be done, but to continue to compare any kind of family-oriented venture downtown to a ridiculous children's mall that had never been done anywhere before by a couple with no retail experience, with a lackluster tenant list, poorly finished interior, a stone's throw away from bums urinating on themselves and prostitutes (at the time) is silly. I really hope local commercial bankers don't use this Mackie's World argument to deny funding. How about bringing up the fact that Rivertown Crossings brings in about 10 million visitors a year? Or are we only using failures for comparison here?

In addition, our zoo needs to be greatly improved if it wants to be sustainable and be a bigger attraction. Cereal City? What kid in their right mind wants to go watch cereal being made?

Let's take that to a logical next step. No more high-rises downtown because Lyon and Ottawa was never built. Or let's not try anything because there is the possibility of failure.

Got any other valid arguments against? I'd actually love to hear some.

[PR-15]

I apologize for my abrasive response earlier. It sometimes irritates me that people bring up Mackie's World, when in fact we could use 100 more people like the Colvins in this town. Although I don't know them personally, at least they had the b**ls to try something bold, despite the skeptics and naysayers. Instead of their entrepreneurial efforts being celebrated, people (not necessarily you PR-15) in this town continue to beat the Mackie's World drum 10 years later as a reason not to do anything.

[tamias6]

Another thing about Mackie's world to remember. its founders were totaly driven by emotion with a very weak business plan when they started that venture. I don't think they planned it too well, i.e. resarching if there was a market for such a place. Yes starting of a business does involve some emotional motivation. But basing one's business purely on emotion and excluding common sence and forethought from the process is asking for a one way trip to failure.

[GRDadof3]

Hey, no problem, GR-Dad. I'm not trying to be the water on the fire, but I can get equally frustrated when good projects or cool businesses fail because of lack of support or focus or whatever. Mackie's World is kind of the Hindenberg of failed dt projects...hard to forget and an easy mark. I'll try to be more fair (and more current in my examples).

My point was actually meant to be much larger about family oriented destinations looking great on paper and then really struggling...not just here but across the state. You've pulled some great stuff to look through and it does show reason for optimism.

Many cultural and family oriented destinations in GR are having a tough go of it...that includes GRAM, The GR Public Museum, Children's Museum...gosh even the Ford Museum was having their worst attendance in their history last year (no doubt they will rebound this year).

FMG seems to be the most successful of these the last decade or so. They do things right and have some deep pockets and PASSION. On top of that they have not been stagnant in their exhibitions or expansions/improvements...and are inclusive of all ages...the children's gardens are great. It keeps my kids excited about going there 4-5 times a summer.

Ultimately, the Days Inn property is headed in a new and positive direction and that is going to be awesome to watch.

[GRDadof3]

Discussion moved from the Days Inn topic.

Would an indoor waterpark resort work as well at the Area 4 of 5 sites, as Joe suggests?

According to developers of Orchard Park (possible Cabela's site), they are also looking at building a hotel with attached water park.

I can see a full-service hotel (possibly all suites) WITH an attached indoor waterpark. Not something stand-alone.

[Veloise]

Thank you Veloise. You all without children would be amazed at how people with children are starving for entertainment in this town. ChuckECheese and the treehouse at Rivertown Crossings just does not cut it. Families travel to Traverse City in droves to go to Great Wolf Lodge, and it costs upwards of $250 - $300/night. The last time I checked, there was a waiting list to get a weekend night stay at the hotel on 131 near the South Belt that has a SMALL indoor waterslide.

I bring this idea up about once a year, and it's funny the responses to it.

[GRDadof3]

Jeff, I was looking for census data for more back-up. Need age/income within a certain reasonable driving distance. Say, ages 0-14 and family income at a point where such a trip does not preclude shoes for the children or heat for a month.

If the CM can cahoot with the zoo (penguins), seems like other collaborations would be possible.

[GRguy]

Simply an observation...The Double JJ Ranch, just north of Muskegon added a new 60,000 sq ft water park (I think it is open, but not 100% complete at this time). They draw a large quantity of folks from Detroit and Chicago, even before the water park opened, so out of towners will travel for that kind of thing and pay BIG bucks to do so.

[lstmk]

Simply an observation...The Double JJ Ranch, just north of Muskegon added a new 60,000 sq ft water park (I think it is open, but not 100% complete at this time). They draw a large quantity of folks from Detroit and Chicago, even before the water park opened, so out of towners will travel for that kind of thing and pay BIG bucks to do so.

[allbusiness]

I wonder how the new water park at Boyne Mountain is doing.

[Nuncprotunc]

The Holiday Inn Express off of 68th has a small water park (it's really just a big slide, some sprayers and buckets, etc.). My mom took my niece and nephew there the Thursday after Christmas and the place was packed from the time the pool opened in the morning until it closed at night.

[PR-15]

There's a large article in the GR Press today about water park entertaimnet...Your Life section E.

The weekend ticket prices for entry only (no hotel room) at Double JJ are $34 adults and $29 for kids for a full day pass.

The cost for a family of 5 would be $165 before meals and trinkets. That's a pretty expensive outing for most people.

[snoogit]

There's a large article in the GR Press today about water park entertaimnet...Your Life section E.

The weekend ticket prices for entry only (no hotel room) at Double JJ are $34 adults and $29 for kids for a full day pass.

The cost for a family of 5 would be $165 before meals and trinkets. That's a pretty expensive outing for most people.

[PR-15]

Thats about your average initial ticket cost for a trip to Michigan's Adventure, or Cedar Point for a family of four. $165 isn't much to sacrifice for a family fun outing. Heck if you took all 5 to a Tigers game, or even a Griffins game I doubt you'd come out under $165 for the night depending on your seats.

With Double J, that goes the whole day...

I'm not hawking for JJ, but you gotta admit $165 is actually a pretty good deal compared to whats out there.

[snoogit]

between 8 and 16 I was going to Mich Adventure & cedar point 3 times a year (Mi Adv. twice, CP once)

[Allison Slater]

I went to MI Adv maybe once every two years, with it slowly declining as I became more and more responsible for my own money. =p

Now I only go when I have a free ticket usually.

[Veloise]

There's a large article in the GR Press today about water park entertaimnet...Your Life section E. ...

[joeDowntown]

I thought the same thing. I read it looking for a reference to Urban Planet discussing if building one downtown would benefit the area.

When I saw that, I had to laugh. We scooped 'em again!