The Washington County Militia

[hogwash]

While I respect your opinion I have to fundamentally disagree with your stance. For the purpose of this conversation let's assume a basic viewpoint that God does exist and basic Chrisitian doctrine is true. If you that offends you, please pass by the following statements. I'm not making these statement to open up a discussion about their validity as truth.

Its my opinion that Jesus would have never wanted us to rise up in armed resistance. I was always taught Chrisitans would be persecuted because of His name and that one may have even have to die because of His name. What comes to mind for me when I think of that are the martyrs, those like Stephen. Christianity exists as we know it today because of those people that didn't rise up with arms and say we aren't going to take it. They were persecuted, jailed, and murdered for their beliefs. Did they try to from an insurgent group to protect themselves from the government? To my knowledge they did not. God spread His message through them. God took something completely horrible, the murder of His own followers and used it to rock Roman culture. Rome went from being a place where one could die for preaching the Gospel to the capital of Christianity.

Let's also look at history, some of the most egregious wrongs taken out in the name of religion were the Crusades. Consequently, the Crusades also happen to be an armed resistance against another group perceived to be encroaching on something scared to Christianity. For me that is an endorsement of an action done outside of God's Will.

I believe we should also be careful about who we label a Christian and who we do not. We can call someone a Chrisitian who is definitely or even as I have seen by clergy, "preach someone into Heaven" at a funeral. I know at least I am incapable of truly knowing a man's heart. In the end, only Gods know who His true followers are.

[Mith242]

It's funny you say that about mixing religion and weapons. Most of history was written by various religions armed with weapons. Here's something to ponder: Most of the freedoms that people opposed to Christianity take for granted wouldn't even exist if it wasn't for Christians. Who abolished slavery? Christians. Who was the first established religion to allow and even encourage interdenominational worship? Christians. Who discovered America? Yep... Christians. Nearly every discovery ever made in this world was discovered by a Christian... except for weapons that is! It's only natural that when Christianity is becoming as threatened as it is these days that Christians will fight back, armed if need be. The only reason so many Americans (and others) have become so passifistic is because of all the freedoms and comforts that Christianity has spoiled them with.

[Mith242]

Okay sorry, to go off on this again but I thought of a couple more good examples. Wasn't Galileo imprisoned by the church for his discoveries that we don't live in a Geocentric universe? And what about ol' Albert Einstein, didn't he discover a few things? Last time I checked he wasn't Christian.

[zman9810]

Now that's just not true. The Chinese made plenty of discoveries and they aren't Christian. I'd also like to say it was Christians that killed thousands of innocent people in the Spanish Inquisition. It was Christians that killed thousands of innocent Native Americans. It was Christians that brought slavery to the New World in the first place. Can't say I agree with your thinking there. Our Founding Fathers weren't exactly the great Christian people we think of them nowadays. Most of them were Deists. They believed there was a God that created the universe but then afterwards God pretty much left the universe on it's own and that people were basically 'on their own'. So I question on whether this country was really founded as a 'Christian' nation. Mixing religion and weapons is just asking for trouble. Once people start crossing a line it becomes easier to keep crossing more and more. What's to keep some Christian militia from deciding one day to start imposing their particular denomination on other Christians? Maybe some armed Southern Baptists can tell all of us we can't drink alcohol anymore. Maybe some armed Mormons can come tell us we can't alcohol or caffeine anymore. What's causing a lot of the conflict over in Iraq right now? Shias and Sunnis, two different branches of Islam, fighting against each other. People can be any religion they want, I really don't care. But I don't want need any other person to come tell me my religious beliefs are wrong. I just worry when I see a growing factor of Christian fundamentalist growing stronger. If you ask me fundamentalists of any religion are the ones who end up causing most of the problems in this world. Anyway that's my rant for today. I just see this 'so called militia' as a sign of more problems to come.

[masons_dad1]

The Chinese invented gunpowder. Galileo's work was, at first, a political threat to the Catholic Church, yet his work was authorized by Pope Urban VIII in 1623. Also, Galileo was warned by the church but never imprisoned. Albert Einstein was an atheist whose work created the atom bomb. The Spanish Inquisition was a political maneuver. Native Americans mostly died by diseases and they were just as guilty for armed conflict with Europeans. Slavery predates writing and evidence for it can be found in almost all cultures and continents. Slavery was peacefully abolished by "Christian" England in 1834. Slavery in the US wasn't abolished until after a civil war in 1865 that cost 600,000 lives. Deists are Christians who reject God's word and continue to run this country today.

What's to keep some deists or atheists from deciding one day to start imposing their particular denomination on other Christians? Maybe some armed Gnostics can tell all of us we can't drink believe in one god anymore. Maybe some armed Vetics can come tell us we can't eat beef.

[Mith242]

The Chinese invented gunpowder. Galileo's work was, at first, a political threat to the Catholic Church, yet his work was authorized by Pope Urban VIII in 1623. Also, Galileo was warned by the church but never imprisoned. Albert Einstein was an atheist whose work created the atom bomb. The Spanish Inquisition was a political maneuver. Native Americans mostly died by diseases and they were just as guilty for armed conflict with Europeans. Slavery predates writing and evidence for it can be found in almost all cultures and continents. Slavery was peacefully abolished by "Christian" England in 1834. Slavery in the US wasn't abolished until after a civil war in 1865 that cost 600,000 lives. Deists are Christians who reject God's word and continue to run this country today.

What's to keep some deists or atheists from deciding one day to start imposing their particular denomination on other Christians? Maybe some armed Gnostics can tell all of us we can't drink believe in one god anymore. Maybe some armed Vetics can come tell us we can't eat beef.

[masons_dad1]

Okay maybe imprisoned was too strong as word, but Galileo was put under house arrest. Einstein did more than just to create the atom bomb. But if feel you must discredit everything he did because he wasn't Christian then go ahead. The Spanish Inquisition killed in the name of the Church and God. And so because Native Americans weren't Christian and weren't perfect human beings they deserved to be wiped out by the thousands? Great way to think there. Sure Christian countries eventually abolished slavery after centuries of use. I'm sorry but let's face it Christians are just as responsible for brutal acts in history as any other group. I'm not meaning this to seem like I'm picking on you for being Christian. For that matter I never said I wasn't Christian. But I think any Christian has to accept that Christians have done horrible things in the past in the name of God. Anyway what this started out as was some concern for the 'militia'. I still just worry in if there's much of a line between a religious militia becoming an armed cult. I keep using the word militia, but I don't think that's accurate. I believe a militia has to be recognized by the state as such. I don't think I can simply gather a bunch of people and call it a militia and stockpile illegal weapons.

[hogwash]

I'd also like to note that until the time of Augustine, pacifism was a widely accepted and undoubted aspect of Chrtistianity. In Rome those that converted to Christianity were expected to repent for their deeds as soldiers and diligently try to seek release from the legion. Pacifism does mean you don't resist, just that you not take up arms.

[Mith242]

Okay first of all I just wanted to say I didn't mean for this to get so off topic. I also don't want it to seem like I was picking on religion. Maybe I was trying a little too hard at being the devil's advocate. We obviously don't agree on the subject and have strong opinions about it. So perhaps we'll just leave it at that. I usually avoid discussions on religion and politics for that matter, for this very reason. But anyway back to the topic of the militia. I think there's a grey area here. Today I believe most people think militias were turned into the Natl Guard. I think in the government's eyes for there to be a militia it's supposed to be recognized by the state. Today I don't think any militias are recognized. Which is the main reason Wayne couldn't really use any of that as a real defense against the illegal weapons charges. But I have to be honest I'm no expert in this matter and I don't know where all of the sources for the material found on the militia's website.

[masons_dad1]

Okay first of all I just wanted to say I didn't mean for this to get so off topic. I also don't want it to seem like I was picking on religion. Maybe I was trying a little too hard at being the devil's advocate. We obviously don't agree on the subject and have strong opinions about it. So perhaps we'll just leave it at that. I usually avoid discussions on religion and politics for that matter, for this very reason. But anyway back to the topic of the militia. I think there's a grey area here. Today I believe most people think militias were turned into the Natl Guard. I think in the government's eyes for there to be a militia it's supposed to be recognized by the state. Today I don't think any militias are recognized. Which is the main reason Wayne couldn't really use any of that as a real defense against the illegal weapons charges. But I have to be honest I'm no expert in this matter and I don't know where all of the sources for the material found on the militia's website.

[masons_dad1]

I'd also like to note that until the time of Augustine, pacifism was a widely accepted and undoubted aspect of Chrtistianity. In Rome those that converted to Christianity were expected to repent for their deeds as soldiers and diligently try to seek release from the legion. Pacifism does mean you don't resist, just that you not take up arms.

[hogwash]

Excuse me. Yes it was Constantine. Augustine was a moralist that added his views to the Christian body of belief and helped transition Chrisitanity away from its pacifist beginnings. It would seem justification for war had to be adopted for Christianity to be more palpable as a mainstream belief system.

I can't present any evidence for pacifism more convincing than Jesus's own Sermon on the Mount and the way God used pacifism to fuel the spread of Christianity.

It's probably best as well that we agree to disagree.

[masons_dad1]

It's probably best as well that we agree to disagree.

[johnnydr87]

It's funny you say that about mixing religion and weapons. Most of history was written by various religions armed with weapons. Here's something to ponder: Most of the freedoms that people opposed to Christianity take for granted wouldn't even exist if it wasn't for Christians. Who abolished slavery? Christians. Who was the first established religion to allow and even encourage interdenominational worship? Christians. Who discovered America? Yep... Christians. Nearly every discovery ever made in this world was discovered by a Christian... except for weapons that is! It's only natural that when Christianity is becoming as threatened as it is these days that Christians will fight back, armed if need be. The only reason so many Americans (and others) have become so passifistic is because of all the freedoms and comforts that Christianity has spoiled them with.

[Mith242]

Johnny I thought of you when this topic was going on. I figured you'd find it over here eventually.

[masons_dad1]

And no, it was primarily deists who built America's government. I've said it many times, and I've learned it many times more at the University.

I'm currently reading the Federalist, primarily written by James Madison and Alexander Hamilton, and they cite religion as one of the many "faction"-inducing organizations that need to be controlled properly by a secular government.

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In other news, Jesus Christ is back.

[johnnydr87]

Sounds like a plan. Mine is not so much "belief" as "knowledge." There's a difference.

Link: http//www.msnbc.msn.com/id/16840066/site/newsweek/ What do ya know? Jesus is a Latino.

[masons_dad1]

Sounds like a plan. Mine is not so much "belief" as "knowledge." There's a difference.

Link: http//www.msnbc.msn.com/id/16840066/site/newsweek/ What do ya know? Jesus is a Latino.

[johnnydr87]

How can you know something without "believing" it to be true. So, go ahead and "believe" what you want and I'll "believe" what I want.

[masons_dad1]

I don't "believe" that Madison and Hamilton wrote about the importance of controlling factions (including those that religious) in the Federalist; I read the text, and I know it.

[hogwash]

I'll just jump in with my bit here. Knowledge requires belief to become knowledge. We all ultimately accept some sort of assumption when gaining knowledge. For example, to see a red car and "know" its red you must assume the car is real and that you are not color blind (like me), among other things. Knowledge requires perception and belief, which are both shaky. "Knowledge" is prone to inaccuracy by its possessors bias and being human we are all biased.

[johnnydr87]

“Knowing that they wrote a book and even reading said book doesn't imply belief in what they wrote.”

This doesn't make sense, and is not relevant at all to what I said.

Did I say that "reading a book implies belief in what is written?" No. In fact, what the hell are you even talking about? I read the book. I read the text, which said explicitly how to control factions--including those that are religious. I don't believe they said it; I know it's there. IT just is. End.

“I "know" that Paul the Apostle wrote the Gospel and I "believe" what he wrote to be inspired by Jesus Christ.”

This is what I have already said: there is a difference between belief and knowledge.

“Knowledge and belief are different, yet neither is substantial without the other. “

Rambling incoherently does not make you sound more intelligent.

Your signature shows your weak grasp on the fundamental concepts at hand (i.e. what exactly are we even arguing about here and what truth are we trying to derive from it at the end of the day.)

[masons_dad1]

I read the book. I read the text, which said explicitly how to control factions--including those that are religious. I don't believe they said it; I know it's there. IT just is. End.

Rambling incoherently does not make you sound more intelligent.

[Arkansas Student]

In talking about knowledge, we need to be careful how complacent/confident we become in our "knowledge" of the world. There's a whole school of philisophical thought that claims we only "know" what we directly (personally) experience.

For example, do I really know that Australia exists? I haven't been there, I haven't seen it with my own eyes, I haven't touched the ground or felt the air. Sure, I've seen pictures. I've seen moving pictures. I've met people who claim to be from Australia, and others who claim to have been there. But, when it comes down to it, I don't really "know" because I haven't experienced it. However, I "believe" it exists. Therefore the two words, on occassion, are interchangeable.

Now, it's justifiable for me to just believe in Australia because I trust my sources. Take that same statement and apply it to anything to anything else that others would claim to "know" exists.

I know my computer exists because it's right here in front of me. But I don't really know if any of YOU exist because I've never met you. The universe could be playing a giant trick on me. Or it could be playing one on you. How do YOU know that I exist?

You don't "know" that every morning, when you get out of bed, you're not going to be crushed by an airplane that falls out of the sky. You have simply conditioned yourself to "believe" that you won't be crushed, which allows you the confidence to get up and start the day. In this way, belief overrules knowledge.

We don't "know" that the sun is going to come up every morning, we just "believe" it will. On the day that it doesn't, our belief will be proven wrong and we will "know."

In other words, don't get too comfortable with believeing or knowing. The universe isn't on your side.

[Mith242]

I noticed someone had a letter in the editorial of the Northwest Arkansas Times today supporting Wayne. It was Jim Cole Jr, not sure if any of you remember his dad's commercials. But not getting into a religious side discussion again, I'm still a little surprised to see what I'm seeing. The whole basis of this militia seems to be distrust in the government and for them to potential use arms against the government to protect the 'average' citizen. I suppose as long as they are rather passive about it maybe there's no problem. But it would seem to me the government is going to see them as a potential threat. A group of people who don't seem too happy with the government and who are arming themselves as well. Not just that but as illegal weapons. Doesn't sound like a good situation. Seems to me this could possibly be a problem at some point in the future.

Especially if this group decides to become a little more 'pro-active'.