Highway and Road Construction Updates

[wingbert]

6 hours ago, arcturus said:

What we do know is it failed early and the ultimate responsibility lies with the state regardless of semantics and their definition of what's considered at spec at what isn't.  At the very least their accepted use criteria was faulty and therefore doesn't relieve them of fault.

Well we are talking about the same organization that felt the best solution to traffic issues on the Cascade Road interchange at I96 was to blow a fortune on a fancy new overpass system without doing anything to actually make room on the highway to provide that traffic someplace to go.  It's like thinking the best solution to the water backing up in your bathtub is to install a fancy new faucet.

[x99]

On 9/20/2016 at 6:27 PM, Raildude's dad said:

I'm not going to try an defend MDOT. They are not the organization of a 3 decades ago. They had early buyouts in the Engler and Granholm administrations and lost a lot of their experience. Lots of job shuffling goes on. They rely heavily on consulting firms as well. Consultants just move on to the next project, they don't deal with the future maintenance issues. Today on Mlive there's an article where the so called expert is blaming it on too much salt. That's BS. East of Wilson is fine. I tend to believe the material substitution is the reason. If you remember, it was a hurry up, construct M-6 by Engler. "Haste makes waste".

That seem like fiction.  The heightened adverse impact of de-icing salts on concrete with improperly distributed and sized void spaces is pretty well documented.  

A useful quote from the Federal Highway Administration circa 1997: 

"The type, size, shape, arrangement, and abundance of the voids are factors controlling many important properties, such as compressive strength, resistance to destruction by freezing and thawing, and resistance to chemical attack on the reinforcing steel and the cement paste. The percentage of air void volume is generally specified by the design of the mixture. A large number of very small (most not visible without magnification) air voids are desired so that an appropriate amount of air can be distributed throughout the HCC in such a way that the distance between voids is very short and, thus, the paste is protected from freezing and thawing. 

To put it is a rather non-technical context, it seems to me that if you know how critical these bubbles are, and you are going to use a substitute product to create the bubbles, you would probably want to know whether the substitute product worked the same before spending hundreds of millions of dollars.  This is "duh" level thinking.  There is stuff called lab equipment that figures this out for not much money (in the scope of a hundred plus million dollar project).  MDOT's negligence here is shocking, and I think that's a fair comment even without the benefit of 20/20 hindsight.  MDOT spent hundred of million on what amounted to an experiment.  

[GRDadof3]

31 minutes ago, x99 said:

That seem like fiction.  The heightened adverse impact of de-icing salts on concrete with improperly distributed and sized void spaces is pretty well documented.  

A useful quote from the Federal Highway Administration circa 1997: 

"The type, size, shape, arrangement, and abundance of the voids are factors controlling many important properties, such as compressive strength, resistance to destruction by freezing and thawing, and resistance to chemical attack on the reinforcing steel and the cement paste. The percentage of air void volume is generally specified by the design of the mixture. A large number of very small (most not visible without magnification) air voids are desired so that an appropriate amount of air can be distributed throughout the HCC in such a way that the distance between voids is very short and, thus, the paste is protected from freezing and thawing. 

To put it is a rather non-technical context, it seems to me that if you know how critical these bubbles are, and you are going to use a substitute product to create the bubbles, you would probably want to know whether the substitute product worked the same before spending hundreds of millions of dollars.  This is "duh" level thinking.  There is stuff called lab equipment that figures this out for not much money (in the scope of a hundred plus million dollar project).  MDOT's negligence here is shocking, and I think that's a fair comment even without the benefit of 20/20 hindsight.  MDOT spent hundred of million on what amounted to an experiment.  

Don't forget that that's the phase of M-6 where an entire bridge over I-196 needed to be rebuilt because of a "math error." 

I remember when it happened, but this is from Wiki:

The last major project for the freeway was to replace bridge beams in the overpasses from westbound I-196 to eastbound M-6.[40] Design flaws were found in 2002 in the size of the beams in the bridges over eastbound I-196 and the ramp from westbound M-6 to westbound I-196.[41] The replacement was originally supposed to close traffic along I-196 over a weekend in 2004, but kept a lane closed for a full week, backing up traffic on the Interstate for two miles (3.2 km); completion of the work was delayed when human error caused a shortage of nuts and bolts.[42]

[Raildude's dad]

I have read the report quoted at the news conference. There's not much conclusive info in it. I talked to a person very intimately involved with the issue. The slab between the joints is fine . If it was an air entertainment issue, the entire slab would be deteriorating. It's not, it's confined the the joint areas. Joints have always been the Achilles heel of a concrete pavement. I've been in the highway design, construction and maintenance business for 44 years. In the years before a concrete pavement is reconstructed (they don't last forever and require routine maintenance just like you change the oil in your car and replace the tires). there are always many joints that need to be fixed. I will agree there are more joints than usual  that need to be repaired on that section but I'm  giving less credence to the air entraining issue being the reason. I would be looking at the joint sawing. I've never been a fan of sawing. I think there's better types of joints but they are more expensive.

As for the bridges on the west end, the beam size was is adequate but they requiring additional bracing until the beams act compositely with the deck due to the skew the bridge was on.  The same issue showed up on the skewed bridges at M-6 and 131.Was it design error?, yes it was.

 

 

[Prankster]

7 hours ago, Raildude's dad said:

I have read the report quoted at the news conference. There's not much conclusive info in it. I talked to a person very intimately involved with the issue. The slab between the joints is fine . If it was an air entertainment issue, the entire slab would be deteriorating. It's not, it's confined the the joint areas. Joints have always been the Achilles heel of a concrete pavement. I've been in the highway design, construction and maintenance business for 44 years. In the years before a concrete pavement is reconstructed (they don't last forever and require routine maintenance just like you change the oil in your car and replace the tires). there are always many joints that need to be fixed. I will agree there are more joints than usual  that need to be repaired on that section but I'm  giving less credence to the air entraining issue being the reason. I would be looking at the joint sawing. I've never been a fan of sawing. I think there's better types of joints but they are more expensive.

As for the bridges on the west end, the beam size was is adequate but they requiring additional bracing until the beams act compositely with the deck due to the skew the bridge was on.  The same issue showed up on the skewed bridges at M-6 and 131.Was it design error?, yes it was.

 

 

Not to pile on M-DOT, but what is the difference between our process/product and what they use in Europe?  I always hear how there roads are superior to ours, so I'm genuinely interested in what they do to prevent something like this. 

[Raildude's dad]

1 hour ago, Prankster said:

Not to pile on M-DOT, but what is the difference between our process/product and what they use in Europe?  I always hear how there roads are superior to ours, so I'm genuinely interested in what they do to prevent something like this. 

I'd be happy to but give me till I get some free time this weekend. if we did what they do in Europe, there would be a lot less complaining about the condition of our roads.

[organsnyder]

This discussion has been fascinating. Looking forward to reading more.

[GRDadof3]

The major work coming up for the I-196 Westbround bridge over the Grand Rapids has been moved back to 2018/2019, apparently because of the need to "translocate" an endangered species in the river called the Snuffbox Mussel. 

If you don't recall details about this project, they're going to almost completely close the river in with earthen berms to work on the bases of the bridge piers. The rebuilding and widening of the bridge will also make the Westbound lane that ends at Coit now continue all the way down the hill and across the river and will become the Northbound ramp to 131 (if that makes sense).

I believe some time next year will begin the complete reconstruction of the whole Ottawa exit/Michigan Street intersection.

 

[GRDadof3]

The Diverging Diamond at Cascade Rd is now (partially) open. It is weird going across the bridge on the left side but I don't see how anyone could do it wrong, like many of the critics on Mlive were saying. 

[GRDadof3]

What is this? It almost looks like they're building landscaping berms along this ugly stretch of 131 (where the rail yards are). Could it be true? 

[WMrapids]

15 minutes ago, GRDadof3 said:

What is this? It almost looks like they're building landscaping berms along this ugly stretch of 131 (where the rail yards are). Could it be true? 

I see those pipes or whatever and could it be a drainage system that they're going to put in? I have no idea what's going on but I don't remember seeing those there.

[GRDadof3]

1 minute ago, WMrapids said:

I see those pipes or whatever and could it be a drainage system that they're going to put in? I have no idea what's going on but I don't remember seeing those there.

Those do look like water or sewer pipes, but you don't usually build "up" to put those in. I'll bet @Raildude's dadknows.

[Raildude's dad]

Looks like water-main - big water-main pipe. I heard there's new track as well. I'll need to check it out.

[GRDadof3]

36 minutes ago, Raildude's dad said:

Looks like water-main - big water-main pipe. I heard there's new track as well. I'll need to check it out.

They are working on the Benteler plant right across the railroad tracks, demolishing the office portion. Not sure if it's related. 

[SEsideguy]

Temporary skatepark?

[WMrapids]

Looks like the LED lighting is finally getting installed around the city.

http://fox17online.com/2017/01/04/led-lights-overpasses-grand-rapids/

Places include:

• Heartside Park
• Grandville overpass
• Fulton Street overpass and at the intersection with Market Avenue
• Pearl Street overpass
• Bridge Street overpass
• Monroe Avenue overpass
• I-196 on and off-ramps
• Monroe Avenue at Coldbrook
• Market and Wealthy streets
• Division and Wealthy streets

[thebeerqueer]

I noticed some of the streets in the Creston neighborhood have the new LED lights as well. 

[WMrapids]

On 9/21/2016 at 7:46 PM, Raildude's dad said:

The S-curve de-icing system was the largest designed by the supplier. It was much larger than the others they had supplied. MDOT specified potassium acetate as the material to be used in the system. Potassium acetate does not melt snow or ice, it prevents the snow from icing up. So to the average motorist,. it appears the system isn't doing anything.  Last time I knew it is operational.

Won't be operational for much longer.

http://www.wzzm13.com/mb/news/investigations/13-on-your-side/watchdog/s-curve-million-dollar-anti-icing-system-on-last-leg/385287416

[elcelc]

On 12/6/2016 at 7:15 PM, GRDadof3 said:

They are working on the Benteler plant right across the railroad tracks, demolishing the office portion. Not sure if it's related. 

From their listing:

The Former Benteler Automotive Plant has recently been acquired by a local and well known developer. The facility underwent a complete transformation which included new lights, updated parking lot, epoxy floors, interior painting and other upgrades. The 100,000 square foot warehouse/manufacturing space features ceilings up to 45’, a 25 ton crane with 26' under hook, 70’ X 30’ Column spacing in some areas, along with heavy power, 8 loading docks and 3 overhead grade level doors.  The facility is visible from US 131 at the Hall Street interchange and offers excellent highway access. There is also an opportunity for up to 12,000 SF of non-contiguous office space which can be leased for an additional rate of $8.00 SF

[GRDadof3]

Sounds like next summer, not only will I-196 over the Grand River be completely shut down, but the bridges/interchanges at I-96 and 131 and the Grand River are also being completely rebuilt. 

They better get working on those bike lanes post haste! Oy vey. 

[WMrapids]

18 hours ago, GRDadof3 said:

Sounds like next summer, not only will I-196 over the Grand River be completely shut down, but the bridges/interchanges at I-96 and 131 and the Grand River are also being completely rebuilt. 

They better get working on those bike lanes post haste! Oy vey. 

If only...

[MJLO]

On 5/31/2017 at 8:30 AM, GRDadof3 said:

Sounds like next summer, not only will I-196 over the Grand River be completely shut down, but the bridges/interchanges at I-96 and 131 and the Grand River are also being completely rebuilt. 

They better get working on those bike lanes post haste! Oy vey. 

I think they are getting close to finally adding that extra weave/merge lane all the way to Chicago Dr/Jenison.  Halleler!

[GRDadof3]

17 hours ago, MJLO said:

I think they are getting close to finally adding that extra weave/merge lane all the way to Chicago Dr/Jenison.  Halleler!

Where did you see that? 

[MJLO]

2 hours ago, GRDadof3 said:

Where did you see that? 

I haven't seen it anywhere.  Just doing math.  Every major improvement they've done on that strip has been done with the ability to add another lane.  Every bridge had to be upgraded.  The ones over the grand were the last.

[GRDadof3]

7 hours ago, MJLO said:

I haven't seen it anywhere.  Just doing math.  Every major improvement they've done on that strip has been done with the ability to add another lane.  Every bridge had to be upgraded.  The ones over the grand were the last.

Possibly. I think too that it was just a major pinchpoint, since everyone and his fuckin brother goes 55 in the left lane on I-196 to get off going South on 131, backing up traffic, and the three lanes just abruptly comes to an end after the Ottawa exit, but then opens up again to get off going Northbound 131. We really do have some of the worst-designed highways I've ever seen.