Highway and Road Construction Updates

[GRDadof3]

10 hours ago, MJLO said:

It would also appear that Alpine Avenue between 3 and 4 mile is still the busiest thoroughfare in the metro area.   That is if you don't count US-31 in Grand Haven near Jackson St which handles more vehicles than any other monitored point in Ottawa County including freeways.

No wonder I hate Alpine.

It's also fascinating that I-96 jumps from 66,717 cars north of Cascade Rd, to 84,516 North of Fulton, to 105,966 as it crosses West of the East Beltline. That explains the backups every day now.  That makes it the first section of highway in the region outside of 131 to surpass 100,000 vehicles a day. 

[arcturus]

18 hours ago, GRDadof3 said:

I was just looking at the MDOT traffic counts page (because that's what I do on a crazy Monday evening), and 131 just North of downtown (between I-196 and Leonard) is the busiest stretch of highway in the region with now 146,000 cars a day (2016 numbers, I wonder what 2017 will show?). This is the same amount of traffic as I-696 through Oakland County/Farmington Hills, or I-94 through Southern Wayne County, or I-75 through Oakland County, or "pick a Detroit major freeway". All except 275 which sees almost 200,000 cars a day. 

http://mdot.maps.arcgis.com/apps/Viewer/index.html?appid=18a4b2f2ba3b4e079e935f8835862c73

 

131 at that section is 147,900 actually. 

I haven't driven the others mentioned but what strikes me is they're considered interstates which I assume means they were constructed with higher standards than 131, thus better equipped to handle that amount of traffic.    For those who've driven these areas is the 'stress level' any worse than what motorists encounter on 131?

[MJLO]

2 hours ago, arcturus said:

131 at that section is 147,900 actually. 

I haven't driven the others mentioned but what strikes me is they're considered interstates which I assume means they were constructed with higher standards than 131, thus better equipped to handle that amount of traffic.    For those who've driven these areas is the 'stress level' any worse than what motorists encounter on 131?

I think that would be somewhat of a misnomer.  US-131 is built to the same standard as any limited access freeway.   Technically 131 from  the Ford Freeway (I-196) north to I-96 is designated as I-296 by the federal government, however it is not visually marked as such for motorists.  There are several freeway segments within the state that are interstate grade, but do not carry an interstate designate.   Most interstate routes were planned along former US Route designates anyway.  For instance I-65 basically follows US-31 From Indy to it's termination point at the gulf coast.  

EDIT:   You can actually read about I-296 in this wikipedia article

 

Warning, nerd rant coming.

This is another one of my nerd peeves, that the western side of Michigan never received a north/south interstate connection.  I don't know if there is another section of the country with 2.8 million+ people that does not have a direct interstate connection.  I-96 only somewhat counts IMO because at no point does it leave the state of Michigan.   When they first planned the Eisenhower Interstate system, Michigan was much more population slanted to the SE than it is now.  Direct North/South routes were considered for Grand Rapids but never fully realized.  The decision was made to terminate I-65 at I-80 near Chicago instead of routing it through the western side of Michigan.   

An alternative that has been discussed was to take the portion of US-31 that does not follow I-65 from Indianapolis north through the mitten, and designate it as I-67( I may have previously discussed this).     Indiana is almost finished upgrading US-31 to a full freeway from Indy to South Bend.   US-31 is completed to full interstate standards through Berrein County until Napier avenue.  At that point there is about a mile and a half gap of freeway left to construct to connect it to I-196.  From that point  I-67 would continue either up the coast on the current US-31 Freeway Route, or more logically continue into Grand Rapids at which point it would continue north on US-131 until it terminates.  Ideally they would extend the freeway to connect to I-75 in the north giving the western half of the state full freeway access from Canada through to Indy. 

There has been no activity on finishing the US-31 connection in Berrien County since 2004.  The 10 year recession pretty much permanently shelved whatever plans were out there.   I wish there was a value for our political leadership on this side of the state to lobby for completion on that connection since there is economic benefit to it.  While it may seem trivial,  not having a connection like that can have an impact on the perception of accessibility to the region, and may be hindering potential investment.  

[arcturus]

2 hours ago, MJLO said:

I think that would be somewhat of a misnomer.  US-131 is built to the same standard as any limited access freeway.

Taking a few examples:

- the NB exit to Wealthy St

- the SB entrance from Wealthy St

- the SB entrance off Franklin

- lack of emergency lanes for a considerable distance south of Wealthy in both directions

These are interstate grade?  Can similar 'standards' be seen on portions of those listed interstates?  It's hard to believe 131 throughout would pass muster as an Interstate by definition of today's standards. 

[MJLO]

3 hours ago, arcturus said:

Taking a few examples:

- the NB exit to Wealthy St

- the SB entrance from Wealthy St

- the SB entrance off Franklin

- lack of emergency lanes for a considerable distance south of Wealthy in both directions

These are interstate grade?  Can similar 'standards' be seen on portions of those listed interstates?  It's hard to believe 131 throughout would pass muster as an Interstate by definition of today's standards. 

Note the bolded: Probably not,  although by today's standards they don't build freeways quite like 131 anymore.  Outside of the S-Curve rebuild in 2000 the 131 has been relatively unchanged in some of it's counter intuitive designs for close to 60 years.  You can see similar examples of stuff like this in many cities with older interstate infrastructure throughout the country.  They don't remove an interstate designation due to the age of the design

[arcturus]

14 hours ago, MJLO said:

You can see similar examples of stuff like this in many cities with older interstate infrastructure throughout the country.  They don't remove an interstate designation due to the age of the design

You have me curious.  Point me to an interstate that has substandard features as bad as Wealthy St/Franklin/no emergency lane all bundled into one.   Older interstates may not lose their designation but would assume improvements have pretty much eliminated what we face on 131.

[mpchicago]

2 hours ago, arcturus said:

You have me curious.  Point me to an interstate that has substandard features as bad as Wealthy St/Franklin/no emergency lane all bundled into one.   Older interstates may not lose their designation but would assume improvements have pretty much eliminated what we face on 131.

I-94 in Jackson County has a similarly old infrastructure in a nearly 1.5-mile stretch, where there are short ramps, and virtually no areas for emergency pull-offs.  It's a rather scary section to drive considering all the semi traffic.  I drive it a fair amount to visit family in Ann Arbor.  MDOT is completely rebuilding that stretch this construction season.  In fact, there are other spots along I-94, in Kalamazoo County with similar issues, especially with the short ramps.  

http://www.mlive.com/news/jackson/index.ssf/2018/02/i-94_project_costs_up_to_100_m.html

 

Edited March 14, 2018 by mpchicago

[arcturus]

I looked at both the Jackson and Kzoo areas and with 1 ramp exception which is still 100 feet longer than Wealthy and MUCH longer than Franklin (WB 96 from Elm .. Jackson) all the ramps are nearly 2x the length and more.  Even the tightest sections in the Jackson region has double the emergency lane width as sections of 131.   So I-96 is bad in spots but not as bad as 131 so I guess we're just speaking about degrees of mediocrity.   The key takeaway is highway improvements on that bad section of 96 are being done while any talk about 131 improvements are in discussion phase at best.  Seems to me if the full length of 131 was an official interstate highway that improvements would of been done years ago .. or funded for upcoming needs.

[RegalTDP]

The Santa Ana Freeway (I-5) between the East LA interchange and I-605 has some crazy short on-off ramps and stretches with no emergency lane.  Some of these entrances are really strange, like they are just neighborhood residential streets that dead-end into a freeway.  Swivel the Google Street View around in the links below to see what I mean:

Concord Street

Calzona Street

There may be plans in the works to fix this... As long as I've lived in Southern CA (5+ years) at least some portion of I-5 has been under construction at any given time.

[wingbert]

On 3/13/2018 at 3:48 PM, MJLO said:

There has been no activity on finishing the US-31 connection in Berrien County since 2004.  The 10 year recession pretty much permanently shelved whatever plans were out there.   I wish there was a value for our political leadership on this side of the state to lobby for completion on that connection since there is economic benefit to it.  While it may seem trivial,  not having a connection like that can have an impact on the perception of accessibility to the region, and may be hindering potential investment.  

If I recall correctly, they ended 31 at Napier because beyond that is now a protected habitat for a butterfly that is now on the endangered species list or some such thing.

[wingbert]

On 3/14/2018 at 12:24 PM, arcturus said:

Point me to an interstate that has substandard features as bad as Wealthy St/Franklin/no emergency lane all bundled into one.   

Ever driven the Merritt Parkway?  It's beautiful but entering and exiting are a whole different level of highway driving.

"The Parkway has two lanes in each direction. Due to its age, it was originally constructed without the merge-lanes, long on-ramps, and long off-ramps that are found on modern limited-access highways. Some entrances have perilously short and/or sharp ramps; some entrances even have stop signs, with no merge lane whatsoever; this leads to some dangerous entrances onto the highway. "

I love that road.

[MJLO]

26 minutes ago, wingbert said:

If I recall correctly, they ended 31 at Napier because beyond that is now a protected habitat for a butterfly that is now on the endangered species list or some such thing.

They had a number of alternatives because putting the freeway straight through would have been cost prohibitive due to the environmental impacts yes.  The easiest alternative would be to curve the freeway to connect with where business 94 starts/ends just to the west, about a half mile before the entrance ramps begin for the 1-196.   There's no reason it can't be done outside of a lack of commitment/funds from the state.  

I was just in Wisconsin for work and every time I'm there I cannot believe how well they maintain and invest in their infrastructure compared to Michigan.  Wisconsin is by no means a high growth state, yet their DOT finance model is still able to to keep the state positioned for growth with better infrastructure.   The reason our roads are in this condition cannot  be as simple as the state overbuilding infrastructure they can no longer afford  in stagnant SE Michigan, as they most definitely under built in the rest of the state.    Other people in here are in the know certainly more than I am, perhaps someone can shed some light.   We are in the state that has historically been unable to get out of it's own way.  We have the most oppressive car insurance laws in the country ( I get the protectional benefits they provide).   There are other "unique" aspects of Michigan laws that set us apart in less than exemplar ways as a state.  I have to figure that the way the states road funding model is structured in comparison to peer states plays to part of the reason why roads take longer to rebuild, let alone upgrade. 

[RegalTDP]

6 hours ago, wingbert said:

Ever driven the Merritt Parkway?  It's beautiful but entering and exiting are a whole different level of highway driving.

"The Parkway has two lanes in each direction. Due to its age, it was originally constructed without the merge-lanes, long on-ramps, and long off-ramps that are found on modern limited-access highways. Some entrances have perilously short and/or sharp ramps; some entrances even have stop signs, with no merge lane whatsoever; this leads to some dangerous entrances onto the highway. "

I love that road.

Not an Interstate but yes - I love that road too.  Definitely a better route in/out of NYC than I-95.  I wonder how may U-Haul roofs have been shaved off by the low-overhead tunnels over the years 

Edited March 15, 2018 by RegalTDP

[getemngo]

On 3/15/2018 at 1:22 PM, MJLO said:

They had a number of alternatives because putting the freeway straight through would have been cost prohibitive due to the environmental impacts yes.  The easiest alternative would be to curve the freeway to connect with where business 94 starts/ends just to the west, about a half mile before the entrance ramps begin for the 1-196.   There's no reason it can't be done outside of a lack of commitment/funds from the state.  

It's looking more and more likely that exactly this will happen in the next few years.

[Raildude's dad]

On 3/14/2018 at 12:24 PM, arcturus said:

You have me curious.  Point me to an interstate that has substandard features as bad as Wealthy St/Franklin/no emergency lane all bundled into one.   Older interstates may not lose their designation but would assume improvements have pretty much eliminated what we face on 131.

 

On 3/15/2018 at 1:22 PM, MJLO said:

They had a number of alternatives because putting the freeway straight through would have been cost prohibitive due to the environmental impacts yes.  The easiest alternative would be to curve the freeway to connect with where business 94 starts/ends just to the west, about a half mile before the entrance ramps begin for the 1-196.   There's no reason it can't be done outside of a lack of commitment/funds from the state.  

I was just in Wisconsin for work and every time I'm there I cannot believe how well they maintain and invest in their infrastructure compared to Michigan.  Wisconsin is by no means a high growth state, yet their DOT finance model is still able to to keep the state positioned for growth with better infrastructure.   The reason our roads are in this condition cannot  be as simple as the state overbuilding infrastructure they can no longer afford  in stagnant SE Michigan, as they most definitely under built in the rest of the state.    Other people in here are in the know certainly more than I am, perhaps someone can shed some light.   We are in the state that has historically been unable to get out of it's own way.  We have the most oppressive car insurance laws in the country ( I get the protectional benefits they provide).   There are other "unique" aspects of Michigan laws that set us apart in less than exemplar ways as a state.  I have to figure that the way the states road funding model is structured in comparison to peer states plays to part of the reason why roads take longer to rebuild, let alone upgrade. 

I really don't know where to start

As for 131 design standards, the stretch thru Grand Rapids was built during 1956-57 time frame. The Interstate system was authorized by legislation in 1956.  So US 131 was built using standards prior to the Interstate standards.  This is a good explanation of how the standards for the Interstate system came about. Just substitute Michigan in place of Georgia and Detroit for Atlanta, the story is the same.    http://www.dot.ga.gov/AboutGeorgia/CentennialHome/Documents/Historical Documents/HistoricalContextof GeorgiaInterstates.pdf

As for the state of the highway system in Michigan, it's historically been skewed to Detroit. With the Dems in power, they favored the east side of the state. When the Repubs were in power, thy favored the east side, trying to gain dem votes. So the west side was always a bit short changed.

You will never see any real new construction. Years ago there was a 7-8 Mile Road connector proposed between M-37 and US 131. The NIMBYS got the County Board to pass a resolution telling MDOT to drop it from their long range planning. It's been gone for years.

Look at M-6. When I stated in the business in 1972, it was in "the plan". The first funds were authorized. The City of GR fought it every which way for years. It took 32 years until it was opened.  The Environmental Impact regulations make it virtually impossible to build a new road of freeway magnitude  on a new alignment. Wet land mitigation at a 2 or 3 to one ratio. The cost of right of way acquisition is staggering.  Any residential property must be purchased at 125% of appraised market value plus any and all relocation expenses. If you can't find a another home of comparable value, they make you whole for the upgrade. Not saying it's wrong, it just gets very expensive.  And then there are the NIMBYS and the NIABYS (Not in Anyone's backyard).

We also have had a major funding shortfall for almost 20 years.  I've posted before the bonding fiasco pushed thru by Engler and Granholm. There was the lost decade when MI was in a recession. The gas tax was the same  cents/ gallon from 1997 to 2017. The cost of road construction / maintenance didn't remain at 1997 levels . So there's lots of catching up to do. The sad thing is there is so much anti tax sentiment. How do these folks think infrastructure gets paid for? Oh that's right. I forgot, "free" federal money.

Enough ranting on a nice sunny Saturday. Time to go outside

[arcturus]

2 hours ago, Raildude's dad said:

The Interstate system was authorized by legislation in 1956.  So US 131 was built using standards prior to the Interstate standards.  This is a good explanation of how the standards for the Interstate system came about. Just substitute Michigan in place of Georgia and Detroit for Atlanta, the story is the same.    http://www.dot.ga.gov/AboutGeorgia/CentennialHome/Documents/Historical Documents/HistoricalContextof GeorgiaInterstates.pdf

Yes, this was my original point.  131 has interstate-like traffic volumes on a roadway which doesn't meet interstate standards.   I typically drive on 131 from 44th to the downtown YMCA later in the afternoon and the traffic is so crazy at times I feel like having a Founders IPA BEFORE I work out just to settle down.

[Raildude's dad]

And the rest of my post is why it hasn't been been rebuilt.  We were in Florida a month ago (Largo) and over the past few years a 28th style road was rebuilt, 4 lanes each direction, rt and lt turn lanes, narrow boulevard in the middle. US 19 has been converted from a multi lane highway to a freeway.  Gas prices were the same there as here.

[arcturus]

1 hour ago, Raildude's dad said:

And the rest of my post is why it hasn't been been rebuilt.

That was never my point of contention but thanks for that added info.

Edited March 25, 2018 by arcturus

[Guest]

Does anyone know what they're actually doing with the section of 96 E of 131?  It's ripped up down to the dirt.  I'm assuming they aren't widening it, cause you know... MDOT.

[Raildude's dad]

Replacing the concrete slab. It's the original pavement from east of Alpine to the Grand River.

[wingbert]

Build more roads, drive more cars, avoid more transit options at all costs and get free money - How the Koch Brothers Are Killing Public Transit Projects Around The Country

 

[tamias6]

On 5/25/2018 at 8:59 PM, Raildude's dad said:

Replacing the concrete slab. It's the original pavement from east of Alpine to the Grand River.

This project should be almost done. 

[RustTown]

Excuse my ignorance, since I hadn't been on this side of a state in awhile, but what fresh hell is I-96 between Thornapple River Drive then east across the river?  It reminded my of the aerial photos I've seen of the buckling along M-6.  I'm glad MDOT is finally paying better attention to its warranties, because we can't let that kind of construction happen again.

[GRDadof3]

3 hours ago, Lmichigan said:

Excuse my ignorance, since I hadn't been on this side of a state in awhile, but what fresh hell is I-96 between Thornapple River Drive then east across the river?  It reminded my of the aerial photos I've seen of the buckling along M-6.  I'm glad MDOT is finally paying better attention to its warranties, because we can't let that kind of construction happen again.

Several areas of M-6 and where it joined I-96 and I-196 used some kind of experimental process that did not hold up to the test of time. They've been patching a lot of it, and some parts of M-6 have been completely rebuilt now. 

https://www.wzzm13.com/article/news/investigations/13-on-your-side/stretch-of-m-6-is-12-years-old-but-needs-total-repair-mdot-says/69-170909045

[RustTown]

Yes, I'd known about M-6 and its fixing, but didn't know that the part where it connects with I-96 was built that way, too.  It's almost comical driving over it, like someone came in very precisely and buckled it by hand or something.  Is the part I described on MDOT's list of things to fix?