Highway and Road Construction Updates

[Raildude's dad]

Here's what MDOT has on line. I'm going to look for another map I have someplace that has more detail.

https://www.michigan.gov/documents/mdot/I-96_I-196_Interchange_Open_House_635592_7.pdf

[joeDowntown]

Thanks for the document. I’ve been confused on what was going where. The 196 to east Beltline exit looks like it’s 2 miles long!

Joe

[GRDadof3]

1 hour ago, joeDowntown said:

Thanks for the document. I’ve been confused on what was going where. The 196 to east Beltline exit looks like it’s 2 miles long!

Joe

It's even more confusing to me because a lot of the work going on now doesn't match the picture of the final product. That's why I think some of it is temporary?

[Raildude's dad]

The first contract is the new bridge over where you see the crane and all the temporary pavement needed for the contracts to follow. That way they can just move the traffic lanes around, no paving needed. I'm still looking for the phasing drawing I have someplace. I can get the answer to most any question since my daughter is doing a lot of the roadway design work.

[RustTown]

Phasing, as mention in August:

Quote

 

This fall, there will be shoulder closures and periodic single-lane for temporary widening and bridge construction, Richard said.

In the spring, there will be a single-lane on westbound I-196, from I-96 to Fuller Avenue, for about six months while westbound I-196 is being reconstructed. This will occur during the closure of the westbound I-196 bridge for widening.

https://www.mlive.com/news/grand-rapids/index.ssf/2018/08/reconfiguring_i-96_i-196_at_ea.html

 

 

[GRDadof3]

11 hours ago, Lmichigan said:

Phasing, as mention in August:

 

Thanks, I was seeking a little more detail than a press release though.  It looks like complete chaos right now. I think I have it figured out actually. 

12 hours ago, Raildude's dad said:

The first contract is the new bridge over where you see the crane and all the temporary pavement needed for the contracts to follow. That way they can just move the traffic lanes around, no paving needed. I'm still looking for the phasing drawing I have someplace. I can get the answer to most any question since my daughter is doing a lot of the roadway design work.

I'm not looking forward to I-196 Westbound being trimmed down to one lane. I assume they'll sell/communicate I-96 North as an "alternate route" for a lot of the traffic, now that the work up near Comstock Park is done? 

One other thing they should do, if they're not already, is make the acceleration lane from the East Beltline to I-96 Eastbound loooonger.... That traffic has very little room to merge, and because they're coming off a tight loop, they always slow traffic way down.  All the highways around here seem like they were designed for a max 55mph speed limit. 

[JoeSchmo]

I thought I-196 traffic was bad when they closed 96 this year.  1 lane WB seems multitudes worse.  It seems like this could close a lot of the downtown exits temporarily too.

[wingbert]

If they stay true to form, when they drop 196 to one lane they will also begin some kind of roadwork on 96, M6, Michigan St., Fulton, and Leonard just to be sure they fubar all westbound traffic.

... brought to you by the same brain trust that spent a lot of money creating the super fancy new diverging diamond at Cascade Road & 96 that actually fixed nothing.

[Allison Slater]

You just made both laugh and cry at the same time.

[GRDadof3]

9 hours ago, wingbert said:

If they stay true to form, when they drop 196 to one lane they will also begin some kind of roadwork on 96, M6, Michigan St., Fulton, and Leonard just to be sure they fubar all westbound traffic.

... brought to you by the same brain trust that spent a lot of money creating the super fancy new diverging diamond at Cascade Road & 96 that actually fixed nothing.

It's great that we can all come together around a common cause: hating MDOT. 

[Raildude's dad]

I can't find it on line but WB 196 is going to close at the river next summer to replace the deck of the bridge over the river. The project was delayed by relocating the mussels in the river and the I-96 project this summer.

As for the design issues, the freeways (except M-6) were built in the late 650's early 60's. Design standards were less, the speed limit 65 - 55 in town.  96 ended coming west at Whitneyville. The traffic count was 2500 a day, peak hour 250 cars about 4 every minute. Today the ADT is 51,000 / day, peak hour 5100, about 85 per minute.

As for all the construction, the lost decade had reduced gas tax funds for construction so we got used to fewer orange barrels. Now the funding has increased and that means more road work. The economy is cooking right alone and the workforce and traffic has increased accordingly.

As for the diverging diamond at Cascade. It was designed to take care of the problems on both ends of the interchange on Cascade. It was not a solution for the problems on I-96. If the west bounders would use all the acceleration lane to get up to 70-75 and then merge things would go much better. Nope , they get to the right lane and cut in, the right laners cut over into the left lanes and the stop and go begins. It does need a 3rd lane to M-21.

Edited October 15, 2018 by Raildude's dad
Spelling

[Hoeks]

12 hours ago, Raildude's dad said:

As for the diverging diamond at Cascade. It was designed to take care of the problems on both ends of the interchange on Cascade. It was not a solution for the problems on I-96. If the west bounders would use all the acceleration lane to get up to 70-75 and then merge things would go much better. Nope , they get to the right lane and cut in, the right laners cut over into the left lanes and the stop and go begins. It does need a 3rd lane to M-21.

Could lane dividers be added to the acceleration lane to stop that behavior, and help with the back up?

[GRDadof3]

12 hours ago, Raildude's dad said:

 

As for the diverging diamond at Cascade. It was designed to take care of the problems on both ends of the interchange on Cascade. It was not a solution for the problems on I-96. If the west bounders would use all the acceleration lane to get up to 70-75 and then merge things would go much better. Nope , they get to the right lane and cut in, the right laners cut over into the left lanes and the stop and go begins. It does need a 3rd lane to M-21.

Exactly right, it does need to stay as 3 lanes. And then move the whole 3 lane over so that the Fulton Street onramp traffic can merge in. 

[GRLaker]

25 minutes ago, Hoeks said:

Could lane dividers be added to the acceleration lane to stop that behavior, and help with the back up?

I like this idea to stop the d*cks that cut over onto the highway the second the onramp is in the general vicinity of the highway, but it won't stop the cars that cut over into the left lane the second they merge onto the highway.

[wingbert]

15 hours ago, Raildude's dad said:

As for the diverging diamond at Cascade. It was designed to take care of the problems on both ends of the interchange on Cascade. It was not a solution for the problems on I-96. If the west bounders would use all the acceleration lane to get up to 70-75 and then merge things would go much better. Nope , they get to the right lane and cut in, the right laners cut over into the left lanes and the stop and go begins. It does need a 3rd lane to M-21.

All true.  The problem is that the westbound on ramp still backs up and clogs the diverging diamond.  Also, locating 5 stoplights in the course of what, a quarter mile, was not the most intelligent of ideas.  Why didn’t East Paris get extended north before all that development was allowed to proceed?  Why was it deemed better to keep the light at Cascade West Parkway?  Why is the light at Kenmore on a timer and not a trigger?  It’s so frustrating to stop for a red light at Kenmore while you sit and wait for nobody - especially on a Sunday afternoon.  That area is such a mess and with continued addition of density in the Forest Hills area it is just going to get worse.  Horrific lack of foresight on display right there.

[crinzema]

I'm beginning to think that the most important construction project is not the next skyscraper or anything like that, but road construction improvements. I was headed to the northwest side of town around rush hour, and Lake Michigan drive was just a long parking lot.  Complete insanity. I'm thinking about taking my drone up into the skies and documenting this mess, just so that it can be easily seen how bad things are getting around town. I think there should be some sort of public forum that addresses traffic problems around the city. Here's what I would do:

1. Make all Highways 6 lanes, and have 131 become an eight-lane highway
2. Include Lane Dividers on On-ramps to encourage the full process of acceleration on on-ramps
3. Make downtown onramps longer, (Cars traveling 75 mph must slow down to 40mph for merging traffic on some of these short onramps. Example: Burton onramp traveling south on 131) 
4. Get Rid of Divison Street Bus Lane (Impoverishes an already impoverished area of town with less traffic and fewer customers to fading storefronts. Division Street should be as alive as 28th street, Alpine, Plainfield, and 44th st, but it isn't because of transportation politics) 
5. Make Wilson Ave a 4 lane road (Most obvious "Duh" improvement on this list)
6. Create a Highway From Hudsonville to Coopersville (Development of Western Suburbs)
7. Make Lenard Street a 4 lane road  and increase speed limit to 45mph throughout the length of the road (support Lake Michigan traffic to west suburbs)
8. Get rid of all bike lanes on arterial roads (Ex: Lenard)
9. Increase number of bike lanes on actual secondary roads
10. Become the first city to redefine what a dignified public transportation can be with an autonomous busing system. (Tax me all day on this one)
11. Make all street lights LEDs (Because it's cool) 
12. Tell everyone who doesn't have a job, not to drive between 7-10 am and 4-6pm. (Because I'm a dictator)
13. Re-test drivers with a stricter driver's license test, similar to the requirements that are placed on German drivers (Great Grandma should not be driving on them dam roads)
14. Increase tax on Gas (I'm very much not inclined to say this one, but I think that this is very important. Maybe those autonomous buses could be funded this way) 

These are my quick thoughts, nothing more.

[GRDadof3]

8 hours ago, crinzema said:

I'm beginning to think that the most important construction project is not the next skyscraper or anything like that, but road construction improvements. I was headed to the northwest side of town around rush hour, and Lake Michigan drive was just a long parking lot.  Complete insanity. I'm thinking about taking my drone up into the skies and documenting this mess, just so that it can be easily seen how bad things are getting around town. I think there should be some sort of public forum that addresses traffic problems around the city. Here's what I would do:

1. Make all Highways 6 lanes, and have 131 become an eight-lane highway
2. Include Lane Dividers on On-ramps to encourage the full process of acceleration on on-ramps
3. Make downtown onramps longer, (Cars traveling 75 mph must slow down to 40mph for merging traffic on some of these short onramps. Example: Burton onramp traveling south on 131) 
4. Get Rid of Divison Street Bus Lane (Impoverishes an already impoverished area of town with less traffic and fewer customers to fading storefronts. Division Street should be as alive as 28th street, Alpine, Plainfield, and 44th st, but it isn't because of transportation politics) 
5. Make Wilson Ave a 4 lane road (Most obvious "Duh" improvement on this list)
6. Create a Highway From Hudsonville to Coopersville (Development of Western Suburbs)
7. Make Lenard Street a 4 lane road  and increase speed limit to 45mph throughout the length of the road (support Lake Michigan traffic to west suburbs)
8. Get rid of all bike lanes on arterial roads (Ex: Lenard)
9. Increase number of bike lanes on actual secondary roads
10. Become the first city to redefine what a dignified public transportation can be with an autonomous busing system. (Tax me all day on this one)
11. Make all street lights LEDs (Because it's cool) 
12. Tell everyone who doesn't have a job, not to drive between 7-10 am and 4-6pm. (Because I'm a dictator)
13. Re-test drivers with a stricter driver's license test, similar to the requirements that are placed on German drivers (Great Grandma should not be driving on them dam roads)
14. Increase tax on Gas (I'm very much not inclined to say this one, but I think that this is very important. Maybe those autonomous buses could be funded this way) 

These are my quick thoughts, nothing more.

I would love to see drone video of the traffic mess (all over town). I tell people about it all the time and it's like they don't believe me.

Prime example, I was coming back from a sporting event in Middleville yesterday and like clockwork, at 5:15, Southbound Broadmoor Avenue which is two lanes South of 68th was basically stopped/backed up from 84th Street all the way to beyond 76th. That's over a mile of traffic stopped at a red light! Why is M-37 still so under-designed? Same with Wilson/M-11. Not only are they not designed for the traffic they get, they're extremely dangerous for cross-traffic. I sat at the corner of Richmond and Wilson for literally 10 minutes trying to make a left turn a few weeks ago, around rush hour. Two young girls on bikes were sitting on the other side of the road trying to cross toward me and I thought "they are literally never going to get across this road" because the traffic never lets up. 

[MJLO]

9 hours ago, crinzema said:

I'm beginning to think that the most important construction project is not the next skyscraper or anything like that, but road construction improvements. I was headed to the northwest side of town around rush hour, and Lake Michigan drive was just a long parking lot.  Complete insanity. I'm thinking about taking my drone up into the skies and documenting this mess, just so that it can be easily seen how bad things are getting around town. I think there should be some sort of public forum that addresses traffic problems around the city.

OMG!  Would you please get drone footage from the center of the I-196/US-131 interchange at 5PM showing all 4 directions at a crawl but with downtown in the background.  This would be badass

Also I know what you're talking about when it comes to LMD.  It backs up at Wilson for 2 or 3 miles some nights heading WB, and about a mile heading east. (Don't get me started on Wilson itself. ) I take that way home from Grand Haven a few days a week.   The Western suburbs are grossly under built with infrastructure.  I don't think there's a better example of the inadequate road network handling 3-4x's the volume it was intended to.  Though I think I-96 from 28th St to the I-196 split is close. 

[joeDowntown]

1 hour ago, MJLO said:

OMG!  Would you please get drone footage from the center of the I-196/US-131 interchange at 5PM showing all 4 directions at a crawl but with downtown in the background.  This would be badass

Also I know what you're talking about when it comes to LMD.  It backs up at Wilson for 2 or 3 miles some nights heading WB, and about a mile heading east. (Don't get me started on Wilson itself. ) I take that way home from Grand Haven a few days a week.   The Western suburbs are grossly under built with infrastructure.  I don't think there's a better example of the inadequate road network handling 3-4x's the volume it was intended to.  Though I think I-96 from 28th St to the I-196 split is close. 

131 going North to Rockford is about as bad ass it gets. Add that one to the list! I know they are working on it, but I doubt it'll be anything more than a short-term fix with the northern suburbs. 

Joe

[mpchicago]

1 minute ago, joeDowntown said:

131 going North to Rockford is about as bad ass it gets. Add that one to the list! I know they are working on it, but I doubt it'll be anything more than a short-term fix with the northern suburbs. 

Joe

Yes!  Why does US 131 go from 3 lanes though GR,  to 4 lanes (I-296 ) all the way  back down to 2 lanes at the I-96 interchange?   They just rebuilt that a few years ago too!   131 should be 3 lanes at least to Post Drive, but ideally to 10 Mile.   If you look at similar sized, and even smaller metro's such as Des Moines, Madison, Rochester, their infrastructure can carry much more freeway traffic.   MDOT has never invested as much as they should in GR, and its really showing now with the way the population has grown in the last 10 years.  They are barely playing catchup.   Same with the city of Grand Rapids.  They are barely playing catch up.   Some of the city's work literally consists of putting a layer of asphalt over a crumbling road, which a few years later is even worse.  i.e, Knapp from Fuller to Ann. 

[organsnyder]

10 hours ago, crinzema said:

Get Rid of Divison Street Bus Lane (Impoverishes an already impoverished area of town with less traffic and fewer customers to fading storefronts. Division Street should be as alive as 28th street, Alpine, Plainfield, and 44th st, but it isn't because of transportation politics) 

Some of your ideas are sensible, but this one is just bizarre. Division began its slide into "impoverishment" back in the 1960s with white flight and sprawl. Are you really claiming that people avoid businesses on South Division because of traffic!?

[discgrab21]

Milwaukee utilizes metering for its exrpessway on ramps.  Is that something that would help with rush-hour congestion, or are we still just dealing with too much volume with too few lanes?  Anybody know how expensive it is to install and operate meter systems?

[JoeSchmo]

You start widening highways and you often just shift the traffic problem to other locations 'downstream'. ...i.e. exits and secondary roads.  Also you just encourage more suburban sprawl until you have the same traffic issues again.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Induced_demand

Not saying there aren't actual issues though.

[MJLO]

16 minutes ago, JoeSchmo said:

You start widening highways and you often just shift the traffic problem to other locations 'downstream'. ...i.e. exits and secondary roads.  Also you just encourage more suburban sprawl until you have the same traffic issues again.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Induced_demand

Not saying there aren't actual issues though.

I think that holds true when you start talking 4,5,6 lanes ect.   At this point adding a weave/merge would  ease flow during non rush times, and increase safety for those entering the freeway.  Bringing all GR freeways to 3 lanes in the metro area would bring the area to a minimum of adequate infrastructure.  I don't think it would ease congestion at rush periods though it might to a small point.   On GR Freeways not named US-131 you have two options for speed.  Option A: 82 mph in the left lane, or have someone so close behind you, you're almost to 3rd base.  Option B: 66 MPH in the right lane.   IMO Option B is more dangerous because you often have to slam on your brakes to let  even slower merging traffic enter.  Getting into the left lane usually isn't an option with cars passing too quickly.  Anyone who's been stuck behind a dangerously cautious senior citizen(among others) knows this game.

[crinzema]

1 hour ago, organsnyder said:

Some of your ideas are sensible, but this one is just bizarre. Division began its slide into "impoverishment" back in the 1960s with white flight and sprawl. Are you really claiming that people avoid businesses on South Division because of traffic!?

Now I'll admit that I might not be completely rational on this one. But Let me tell you, everyone like me or anyone more conservative than me gets really jaded driving down division street. I don't think dividing the lanes up between cars and buses was a smart move. But going forward, I would love to see the entire distance of division street given a facelift. If division street becomes vibrant, that would be big for Grand Rapids.