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Highway and Road Construction Updates


GRDadof3

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2 hours ago, Raildude's dad said:

That's a good question, I'll see if I can get an answer.

It's totally dangerous. A lot of people pass the line not knowing that it's offramp traffic, and then they completely STOP in the left traffic lane trying get in later down the road.  As in, stopped on the highway, with 65 - 70 mph cars coming up on them and jamming on the brakes or swerving over into the right lane to avoid an accident, which the right lane has Lane Avenue onramp traffic trying to merge in. When I enter that area during rush hour I just now assume someone's going to cut right in front of me.

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On 10/20/2018 at 4:45 PM, GRDadof3 said:

Exactly. So why aren't they making them actual lanes? 

Seems like if they don't want to make it a dedicated exit lane, they could flex it like on US-23 north of Ann Arbor.  I have driven that stretch several times, both when the flex lane is open and closed, it makes a huge difference for traffic.  It couldn't be very expensive to do that for the approximate 1 mile between the lane ave exit and the 131 interchange.   

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47 minutes ago, discgrab21 said:

Seems like if they don't want to make it a dedicated exit lane, they could flex it like on US-23 north of Ann Arbor.  I have driven that stretch several times, both when the flex lane is open and closed, it makes a huge difference for traffic.  It couldn't be very expensive to do that for the approximate 1 mile between the lane ave exit and the 131 interchange.   

Agreed. A flex lane with some new signage would be good. 

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On 10/20/2018 at 9:30 PM, GRDadof3 said:

It's totally dangerous. A lot of people pass the line not knowing that it's offramp traffic, and then they completely STOP in the left traffic lane trying get in later down the road.  As in, stopped on the highway, with 65 - 70 mph cars coming up on them and jamming on the brakes or swerving over into the right lane to avoid an accident, which the right lane has Lane Avenue onramp traffic trying to merge in. When I enter that area during rush hour I just now assume someone's going to cut right in front of me.

I've experienced the sudden stopping on I-196 EB once some has realized they should've gotten over sooner. So dangerous. Is the leadership at M-Dot appointed? Is there a way to report dangerous traffic conditions? They seems so out of touch with anyone that actually uses the highways they build and maintain. 

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6 hours ago, JoeSchmo said:

So the 131 exit doesnt start until after the Lane Ave on ramp.  I think this is the reasoning for the location of the start of the 131 off ramp.

No one should be getting on I-196 Eastbround from Lane and be expecting to get all the way over to go North on 131. Not when there are so many other ways to get on Northbound 131 from the West Side. Especially not during rush hour. If MDOT thinks this is a reasonable thing that people should be able to do, that's insane. 

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7 hours ago, thebeerqueer said:

I've experienced the sudden stopping on I-196 EB once some has realized they should've gotten over sooner. So dangerous. Is the leadership at M-Dot appointed? Is there a way to report dangerous traffic conditions? They seems so out of touch with anyone that actually uses the highways they build and maintain. 

I like to blame MDOT just like everyone else, but I think it really comes down to funding.   Lansing continues to cut taxes thinking it will appease the masses and then surprise, surprise they have no money for anything.

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15 minutes ago, Floyd_Z said:

I like to blame MDOT just like everyone else, but I think it really comes down to funding.   Lansing continues to cut taxes thinking it will appease the masses and then surprise, surprise they have no money for anything.

Based on my limited knowledge of things and the history, the disfunction of Lansing when it comes to road funding goes WAY deeper than a simple partisan argument about tax cuts.  I am also under the impression that the bulk of these unfunded projects started hitting road blocks during a time when the state was doing everything and anything it could to find revenue.  Tax cuts certainly weren't a part of that era.

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2 hours ago, MJLO said:

Based on my limited knowledge of things and the history, the disfunction of Lansing when it comes to road funding goes WAY deeper than a simple partisan argument about tax cuts.  I am also under the impression that the bulk of these unfunded projects started hitting road blocks during a time when the state was doing everything and anything it could to find revenue.  Tax cuts certainly weren't a part of that era.

Yeah I think you're probably right.

I think if MDOT had it their way, they would be going crazy with projects, but with such limited revenue they have to pick and chose.  Obviously their priorities are Lansing and Metro Detroit, the rest of the state gets the scraps.   

I really have no idea, it's just what I've noticed.  Projects are too little too late.  Contractors use crap materials and aren't held accountable (M6)

 Being a peninsula, would tolls work?  I still think a gas tax is the best solution.

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If I can get more time, I will share my insight into the state highway system / issues.

9 minutes ago, Floyd_Z said:

Contractors use crap materials and aren't held accountable (M6)

This is not true. The contractor used the materials specified by MDOT and did it under full time MDOT inspection. The very same contractor constructed the 36th St extension at the same time using the same materials and specifications.  See any bad joints there? Not a one. The same highway authority (Road Commission) maintains both roads so don't tell me they are maintained different.

MDOT specifies the materials,  mix designs and the methods of construction. Shame on MDOT if the product isn't top notch. However, no pavement is good for life. The road authority has to maintain it and eventually will need to do some heavy duty repairs.

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5 minutes ago, Raildude's dad said:

If I can get more time, I will share my insight into the state highway system / issues.

This is not true. The contractor used the materials specified by MDOT and did it under full time MDOT inspection. The very same contractor constructed the 36th St extension at the same time using the same materials and specifications.  See any bad joints there? Not a one. The same highway authority (Road Commission) maintains both roads so don't tell me they are maintained different.

MDOT specifies the materials,  mix designs and the methods of construction. Shame on MDOT if the product isn't top notch. However, no pavement is good for life. The road authority has to maintain it and eventually will need to do some heavy duty repairs.

Thanks Raildudes,  I know you do have a little more insight than the average person on here.  So in all curiosity... what is the difference b/w the two sections that makes one crumble and one stay intact?  From what I understand it was crap material, but approved by MDOT?  Was it somewhat of a test to try a more economical alternative that didn't work out?

I understand no road lasts forever, but a brand new highway should last more than 14 years

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19 hours ago, discgrab21 said:

Seems like if they don't want to make it a dedicated exit lane, they could flex it like on US-23 north of Ann Arbor.  I have driven that stretch several times, both when the flex lane is open and closed, it makes a huge difference for traffic.  It couldn't be very expensive to do that for the approximate 1 mile between the lane ave exit and the 131 interchange.   

I just don't understand flex lanes. Why not just paint it to be its own lane instead of installing a bunch of signage to tell people they can or cannot use something as a lane? What benefit is there in having it not be a lane during parts of the day? It just doesn't make any sense to me.

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3 hours ago, tSlater said:

I just don't understand flex lanes. Why not just paint it to be its own lane instead of installing a bunch of signage to tell people they can or cannot use something as a lane? What benefit is there in having it not be a lane during parts of the day? It just doesn't make any sense to me.

Cost savings, apparently. $400 Million to completely widen the highway in Ann Arbor vs $92 Million for an added flex lane. 

https://www.mlive.com/news/ann-arbor/index.ssf/2017/11/why_cant_you_drive_on_the_new.html

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1 hour ago, GRDadof3 said:

Cost savings, apparently. $400 Million to completely widen the highway in Ann Arbor vs $92 Million for an added flex lane. 

https://www.mlive.com/news/ann-arbor/index.ssf/2017/11/why_cant_you_drive_on_the_new.html

And I would think it would be a small fraction to implement on 196.  Such a short stretch, and would not need to employ the flex speed limits either. 

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13 hours ago, Raildude's dad said:

If I can get more time, I will share my insight into the state highway system / issues.

This is not true. The contractor used the materials specified by MDOT and did it under full time MDOT inspection. The very same contractor constructed the 36th St extension at the same time using the same materials and specifications.  See any bad joints there? Not a one. The same highway authority (Road Commission) maintains both roads so don't tell me they are maintained different.

MDOT specifies the materials,  mix designs and the methods of construction. Shame on MDOT if the product isn't top notch. However, no pavement is good for life. The road authority has to maintain it and eventually will need to do some heavy duty repairs.

I have family in the redi-mix business.  They said that its highly probable that the M6 issue was that they were transporting the cement too far from the Mixing site.  What often causes the issues that M6 had is that the suspended air in the mix settles out because of vibration and long drive distances.  They should have mixed closer to the use site.  This also explains how it was the far end that was effected the most.

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I have heard that the Federal Highway Administration had given guidance that testing the air entrainment did not need to be tested twice. However, I have been unable to confirm that.   I've been in this business for 46 years, it always has been tested twice , once at the plant and again at placement by the owner or owner's representative. The contractor puts in the amount of entrainment additive called for in the owner's specification. . EastownLeo is right on. The air content goes down the longer the mixer is turning in transit. As the content goes down, the tester at placement lets the plant know the air content on site and to increase the amount of additive. The M-6 cores show the amount of entrained air decreases the further away from 68th and Clay, the batch plant.  Entrained air is the protection against freeze thaw damage. The saw cut joints let water in, the reduced air allowed the damage to occur.

I can state for a fact, the air entrainment was checked at the plant and placement on the 36th St extension.

I have attached a good document to read to learn more about entrained air in pavements. You only need to read the first 30 pages. The rest are very boring charts.

https://www.nap.edu/download/23165#

As for the flex lane.

11 hours ago, GRDadof3 said:

Cost savings, apparently. $400 Million to completely widen the highway in Ann Arbor vs $92 Million for an added flex lane. 

https://www.mlive.com/news/ann-arbor/index.ssf/2017/11/why_cant_you_drive_on_the_new.html

US 23 does not come close to meeting today's design standards. So adding the 3rd lane =$400 million. MDOT requested the FHWA approve adding the flex lane. FHWA approved it by requiring a speed of no more than 60 mph when it's in use. So MDOT has the two lanes off peak hours at normal speed limit, the speed limit drops to 60 when all 3 are open.

 

 

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22 hours ago, Raildude's dad said:

I have heard that the Federal Highway Administration had given guidance that testing the air entrainment did not need to be tested twice. However, I have been unable to confirm that.   I've been in this business for 46 years, it always has been tested twice , once at the plant and again at placement by the owner or owner's representative. The contractor puts in the amount of entrainment additive called for in the owner's specification. . EastownLeo is right on. The air content goes down the longer the mixer is turning in transit. As the content goes down, the tester at placement lets the plant know the air content on site and to increase the amount of additive. The M-6 cores show the amount of entrained air decreases the further away from 68th and Clay, the batch plant.  Entrained air is the protection against freeze thaw damage. The saw cut joints let water in, the reduced air allowed the damage to occur.

I can state for a fact, the air entrainment was checked at the plant and placement on the 36th St extension.

I have attached a good document to read to learn more about entrained air in pavements. You only need to read the first 30 pages. The rest are very boring charts.

https://www.nap.edu/download/23165#

As for the flex lane.

US 23 does not come close to meeting today's design standards. So adding the 3rd lane =$400 million. MDOT requested the FHWA approve adding the flex lane. FHWA approved it by requiring a speed of no more than 60 mph when it's in use. So MDOT has the two lanes off peak hours at normal speed limit, the speed limit drops to 60 when all 3 are open.

 

 

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I saw that the speed limit was 60 mph through there and I thought "yeah right." :)  

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I heard today that MDOT purchased this land at Fulton and I-96 to add a new offramp for Westbound Fulton traffic. I assume you could go Eastbound on Fulton as well?  In looking at that area around the retirement home, it looks like they had plans to add an onramp to Eastbound I-96 and never went through with it? 

217416357_MDOTfultonpurchase.thumb.jpg.c3d5314377184d3c394aa8d3da73836f.jpg

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9 hours ago, Lmichigan said:

Westbound and not eastbound?  That looks like a really awkward fit unless I'm misunderstanding.  How's that going to work with that quadrant?

I have to imagine that they will blow up that whole interchange and start over to make it work in all directions. It’s a really odd offramp. 

Joe

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11 hours ago, Lmichigan said:

Westbound and not eastbound?  That looks like a really awkward fit unless I'm misunderstanding.  How's that going to work with that quadrant?

Right now that little crossover you see just above the triangle is for Eastbound Fulton traffic to get on the highway and go North. You could also take the crossover and go back West on Fulton if you wanted.

My guess? They make the new offramp from I-96 come to a complete stop at Fulton, probably with a new traffic light (which might be needed, it too is a pretty dangerous intersection if you're coming from Fulton and trying to get to that crossover and traffic is traveling at 65 mph coming off the highway ). And then people could turn right and go Eastbound on Fulton, or take the crossover and go Westbound? 

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Totally missed that little crossover, there.  Okay, so I get what you're saying now and made a little mock-up of a possible configuration:

30676081767_f57643e73c_b.jpg

Joe is right; this is a really odd off-ramp.  And you're right about it needing a traffic light to make it work better.  That looks super dangerous; not only do you have to deal with the traffic I'm sure is speeding down eastbound Fulton, but you have people accelerating to get onto the northbound on-ramp and those continuing through westbound.  Seems like a perfect recipe for accidents.

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4 hours ago, Lmichigan said:

Totally missed that little crossover, there.  Okay, so I get what you're saying now and made a little mock-up of a possible configuration:

30676081767_f57643e73c_b.jpg

Joe is right; this is a really odd off-ramp.  And you're right about it needing a traffic light to make it work better.  That looks super dangerous; not only do you have to deal with the traffic I'm sure is speeding down eastbound Fulton, but you have people accelerating to get onto the northbound on-ramp and those continuing through westbound.  Seems like a perfect recipe for accidents.

I tried to draw a diagram but it's hard to do. :) But yes, I've seen many near misses almost every time I'm in that area (about twice a week):  Cars are traveling Eastbound on Fulton and need to cross over the onramp traffic to get to that crossover which has NO DECELERATION LANE to get into. So cars have to come to almost a complete stop and turn left, right in front of offramp traffic which are going from 75+ to about 65+ on Fulton (speed limit on Fulton through there is 55). The other thing people do constantly is pull out of the little crossover to get on the highway RIGHT in front of cars traveling Westbound on Fulton at 65+, who are accelerating up to highway speed. 

Many of the interchanges around here are complete jokes. Dangerous ones. 

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EDIT: Brainfart.  I wasn't even seeing at the westbound off-ramp when I posted that.

OMG, I did a google streetview of just to witness this mess, and didn't even realize that the "crossover" also includes a turn-around for westbound Fulton traffic to head back east.  That is insane.  I just figured the crossover was to allow eastbound Fulton traffic to turn left get on the freeway.  That is literally all that should be used for if it should even exist at all.

Why in the world is there a turn-around in the crossover?!  Yes, they need to destroy this entire setup with fire and redo the whole damn thing.

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1 hour ago, Lmichigan said:

One more question, when you're coming off southbound I-96 until eastbound Fulton, is there signage to tell you how to go westbound, or is the entire point of the setup not to loop you back around?

The eb ramp to M-21 splits, to the left to go east and right to go west. Yes it's signed.

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