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GRDadof3

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I have heard that the Federal Highway Administration had given guidance that testing the air entrainment did not need to be tested twice. However, I have been unable to confirm that.   I've been in this business for 46 years, it always has been tested twice , once at the plant and again at placement by the owner or owner's representative. The contractor puts in the amount of entrainment additive called for in the owner's specification. . EastownLeo is right on. The air content goes down the longer the mixer is turning in transit. As the content goes down, the tester at placement lets the plant know the air content on site and to increase the amount of additive. The M-6 cores show the amount of entrained air decreases the further away from 68th and Clay, the batch plant.  Entrained air is the protection against freeze thaw damage. The saw cut joints let water in, the reduced air allowed the damage to occur.

I can state for a fact, the air entrainment was checked at the plant and placement on the 36th St extension.

I have attached a good document to read to learn more about entrained air in pavements. You only need to read the first 30 pages. The rest are very boring charts.

https://www.nap.edu/download/23165#

As for the flex lane.

11 hours ago, GRDadof3 said:

Cost savings, apparently. $400 Million to completely widen the highway in Ann Arbor vs $92 Million for an added flex lane. 

https://www.mlive.com/news/ann-arbor/index.ssf/2017/11/why_cant_you_drive_on_the_new.html

US 23 does not come close to meeting today's design standards. So adding the 3rd lane =$400 million. MDOT requested the FHWA approve adding the flex lane. FHWA approved it by requiring a speed of no more than 60 mph when it's in use. So MDOT has the two lanes off peak hours at normal speed limit, the speed limit drops to 60 when all 3 are open.

 

 

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22 hours ago, Raildude's dad said:

I have heard that the Federal Highway Administration had given guidance that testing the air entrainment did not need to be tested twice. However, I have been unable to confirm that.   I've been in this business for 46 years, it always has been tested twice , once at the plant and again at placement by the owner or owner's representative. The contractor puts in the amount of entrainment additive called for in the owner's specification. . EastownLeo is right on. The air content goes down the longer the mixer is turning in transit. As the content goes down, the tester at placement lets the plant know the air content on site and to increase the amount of additive. The M-6 cores show the amount of entrained air decreases the further away from 68th and Clay, the batch plant.  Entrained air is the protection against freeze thaw damage. The saw cut joints let water in, the reduced air allowed the damage to occur.

I can state for a fact, the air entrainment was checked at the plant and placement on the 36th St extension.

I have attached a good document to read to learn more about entrained air in pavements. You only need to read the first 30 pages. The rest are very boring charts.

https://www.nap.edu/download/23165#

As for the flex lane.

US 23 does not come close to meeting today's design standards. So adding the 3rd lane =$400 million. MDOT requested the FHWA approve adding the flex lane. FHWA approved it by requiring a speed of no more than 60 mph when it's in use. So MDOT has the two lanes off peak hours at normal speed limit, the speed limit drops to 60 when all 3 are open.

 

 

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I saw that the speed limit was 60 mph through there and I thought "yeah right." :)  

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I heard today that MDOT purchased this land at Fulton and I-96 to add a new offramp for Westbound Fulton traffic. I assume you could go Eastbound on Fulton as well?  In looking at that area around the retirement home, it looks like they had plans to add an onramp to Eastbound I-96 and never went through with it? 

217416357_MDOTfultonpurchase.thumb.jpg.c3d5314377184d3c394aa8d3da73836f.jpg

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9 hours ago, Lmichigan said:

Westbound and not eastbound?  That looks like a really awkward fit unless I'm misunderstanding.  How's that going to work with that quadrant?

I have to imagine that they will blow up that whole interchange and start over to make it work in all directions. It’s a really odd offramp. 

Joe

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11 hours ago, Lmichigan said:

Westbound and not eastbound?  That looks like a really awkward fit unless I'm misunderstanding.  How's that going to work with that quadrant?

Right now that little crossover you see just above the triangle is for Eastbound Fulton traffic to get on the highway and go North. You could also take the crossover and go back West on Fulton if you wanted.

My guess? They make the new offramp from I-96 come to a complete stop at Fulton, probably with a new traffic light (which might be needed, it too is a pretty dangerous intersection if you're coming from Fulton and trying to get to that crossover and traffic is traveling at 65 mph coming off the highway ). And then people could turn right and go Eastbound on Fulton, or take the crossover and go Westbound? 

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Totally missed that little crossover, there.  Okay, so I get what you're saying now and made a little mock-up of a possible configuration:

30676081767_f57643e73c_b.jpg

Joe is right; this is a really odd off-ramp.  And you're right about it needing a traffic light to make it work better.  That looks super dangerous; not only do you have to deal with the traffic I'm sure is speeding down eastbound Fulton, but you have people accelerating to get onto the northbound on-ramp and those continuing through westbound.  Seems like a perfect recipe for accidents.

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4 hours ago, Lmichigan said:

Totally missed that little crossover, there.  Okay, so I get what you're saying now and made a little mock-up of a possible configuration:

30676081767_f57643e73c_b.jpg

Joe is right; this is a really odd off-ramp.  And you're right about it needing a traffic light to make it work better.  That looks super dangerous; not only do you have to deal with the traffic I'm sure is speeding down eastbound Fulton, but you have people accelerating to get onto the northbound on-ramp and those continuing through westbound.  Seems like a perfect recipe for accidents.

I tried to draw a diagram but it's hard to do. :) But yes, I've seen many near misses almost every time I'm in that area (about twice a week):  Cars are traveling Eastbound on Fulton and need to cross over the onramp traffic to get to that crossover which has NO DECELERATION LANE to get into. So cars have to come to almost a complete stop and turn left, right in front of offramp traffic which are going from 75+ to about 65+ on Fulton (speed limit on Fulton through there is 55). The other thing people do constantly is pull out of the little crossover to get on the highway RIGHT in front of cars traveling Westbound on Fulton at 65+, who are accelerating up to highway speed. 

Many of the interchanges around here are complete jokes. Dangerous ones. 

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EDIT: Brainfart.  I wasn't even seeing at the westbound off-ramp when I posted that.

OMG, I did a google streetview of just to witness this mess, and didn't even realize that the "crossover" also includes a turn-around for westbound Fulton traffic to head back east.  That is insane.  I just figured the crossover was to allow eastbound Fulton traffic to turn left get on the freeway.  That is literally all that should be used for if it should even exist at all.

Why in the world is there a turn-around in the crossover?!  Yes, they need to destroy this entire setup with fire and redo the whole damn thing.

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1 hour ago, Lmichigan said:

One more question, when you're coming off southbound I-96 until eastbound Fulton, is there signage to tell you how to go westbound, or is the entire point of the setup not to loop you back around?

The eb ramp to M-21 splits, to the left to go east and right to go west. Yes it's signed.

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2 hours ago, Raildude's dad said:

This is from the Environmental Assessment for the proposed improvements in the corridor. 

image.thumb.png.1cc71977430c31820753129e205114ed.png

Wow, it's basically a complete interchange! And you can skip the East Beltline? Hallelujah!! 

That to me also looks like a 6 lane highway (at least).  Thanks for the intel RDD. 

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3 hours ago, Raildude's dad said:

This is from the Environmental Assessment for the proposed improvements in the corridor.

Thanks, Raildude!  Looks like they are adding a south/eastbound on ramp from Fulton, too, which totally makes sense.  They still need to take out that turnaround in the crossover, though.  That cross over should only be used for westbound traffic from the new offramp or eastbound traffic trying to get on the onramp.

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13 minutes ago, Lmichigan said:

Actually, the more I look at it, the more they look like they've reconfigured it and made it into a curve for access only from eastbound Fulton, which would be great. 

The problem though is that if you exit Westbound I-96 and want to go Westbound Fulton, you need to able to go through that crossover to get to the westbound side. It might necessitate a light to make that interchange safer but who knows. 

This would take a lot of traffic off of Cascade Road and actually take traffic off of Forest Hill Avenue. If you're near Forest Hills/Crahen and Fulton and want to get on the highway to go East, or vice versa, you're screwed. You have to go all the way down Forest Hill Avenue to Cascade Rd, and then up to the new diverging diamond interchange and get on the highway. 

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1 hour ago, GRDadof3 said:

The problem though is that if you exit Westbound I-96 and want to go Westbound Fulton, you need to able to go through that crossover to get to the westbound side. It might necessitate a light to make that interchange safer but who knows.

Oh, I know.  I was going to say that the crossover would also be used as a turnaround for people getting off westbound I-96, but though the diagram was kind of obvious about this so didn't mention it.  It looks that at least from the left lane on the offramp, you'll be able to accress the crossover turnaround. 

I guess what I've been trying to get at is that that crossover needs to be one-way: accessible only by eastbound Fulton traffic and the traffic off the westbound I-96 offramp.

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7 hours ago, Lmichigan said:

Oh, I know.  I was going to say that the crossover would also be used as a turnaround for people getting off westbound I-96, but though the diagram was kind of obvious about this so didn't mention it.  It looks that at least from the left lane on the offramp, you'll be able to accress the crossover turnaround. 

I guess what I've been trying to get at is that that crossover needs to be one-way: accessible only by eastbound Fulton traffic and the traffic off the westbound I-96 offramp.

I would totally concur with that. Sold! 

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Fox 17 ran a segment on the Cottonwood project in Jenison yesterday. This is a project that began in February and they're now saying it likely won't be complete until next spring after originally stating it would be done two months ago. According to a business owner of a gas station/convenience store at Cottonwood and Bauer, he has lost half of his revenue due to this project and it's possible they might not survive a full winter of no through traffic on top of the entire spring-summer-fall with no through traffic. We're starting to see the negative effects of the MITA's reckless disregard for citizens and businesses that rely on the roads they were tasked to complete as quickly as possible. 

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1 hour ago, GRLaker said:

Fox 17 ran a segment on the Cottonwood project in Jenison yesterday. This is a project that began in February and they're now saying it likely won't be complete until next spring after originally stating it would be done two months ago. According to a business owner of a gas station/convenience store at Cottonwood and Bauer, he has lost half of his revenue due to this project and it's possible they might not survive a full winter of no through traffic on top of the entire spring-summer-fall with no through traffic. We're starting to see the negative effects of the MITA's reckless disregard for citizens and businesses that rely on the roads they were tasked to complete as quickly as possible. 

Nice.  So, no incentives for timely completion?

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39 minutes ago, wingbert said:

Nice.  So, no incentives for timely completion?

You would think there would be a fine for every day/week/month they go over the proposed deadline. Apparently all asphalt companies close for the winter on Friday, so they have said that after they lay down the base layer, they're putting the project on hold until next spring. Having family drive through that area on a regular basis, I can attest to the fact that it has really inconvenienced the township. All traffic is routed from Fillmore down 20th through a neighborhood of $500,000+ homes, lined up down 20th at a stop sign at Bauer where they sit for sometimes up to 10 minutes as a seemingly endless stream of cars goes down Bauer. Then there is a line at 24th and Baldwin in the left turn lane that often stretches beyond the turn lane down the left lane, resulting in people waiting to turn left through multiple lights. Now we're starting to hear from businesses saying they might end up closing because it has gone on for so long. I'm just floored that the MITA was able to get away with their mandatory shut-down of all labor when we have such a short window to take advantage of for these projects. They should face some kind of heavy repercussions for projects going this far over due to their own actions.

Edited by GRLaker
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3 hours ago, GRLaker said:

You would think there would be a fine for every day/week/month they go over the proposed deadline. Apparently all asphalt companies close for the winter on Friday, so they have said that after they lay down the base layer, they're putting the project on hold until next spring. Having family drive through that area on a regular basis, I can attest to the fact that it has really inconvenienced the township. All traffic is routed from Fillmore down 20th through a neighborhood of $500,000+ homes, lined up down 20th at a stop sign at Bauer where they sit for sometimes up to 10 minutes as a seemingly endless stream of cars goes down Bauer. Then there is a line at 24th and Baldwin in the left turn lane that often stretches beyond the turn lane down the left lane, resulting in people waiting to turn left through multiple lights. Now we're starting to hear from businesses saying they might end up closing because it has gone on for so long. I'm just floored that the MITA was able to get away with their mandatory shut-down of all labor when we have such a short window to take advantage of for these projects. They should face some kind of heavy repercussions for projects going this far over due to their own actions.

If I were a business owner I'd sue. Complete BS. 

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MITA did not shut anything down. They had been the negotiating voice for the contractors. The Operating Engineers union said they were going to negotiate with the individual companies not MITA. They threatened to walk out after the contractors refused to individually negotiate. The contractors all shut down and refused to let the operators strike or come to work, that's  called an employer lockout.

This is situation that no owner ie the Road Commission wants to be in. I've had a couple where we could only get the base asphalt down. In fact I  have a small one that is that way right now.  There might be some patching that will be done in the spring but it will be okay.

There's blame to be shared by both the Operating Engineers and the contractors to let it happen.

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