The Confederate flag issue rekindled

[whitehourseview]

The schools and tournaments belong to the NCAA. Again, you're missing the point about the NCAA being the owner of events and not schools or sites associated with them.

[krazeeboi]

The major difference with GA's state flag and the Confederate national flag is the number of stars. GA's state flag has 13 stars for the original colonies.

[scoop]

Just trying to get what you are saying when earlier you said this:

Not sure what point I'm missing. Furman isn't a state school, the city of Greenville is not the state.

If the NCAA is putting sanctions against a state government, and if the issue is state recognition of the Confederacy through state symbols, couldn't the NCAA at least be consistent towards other Southern states? If the NCAA isn't going to be consistent, even though I think the flag should have come down after 1965, then this whole kit n koobidle amounts to little more than an athletic organization continuing to major on the minors and minor on the majors. The NCAA, through lots of actions in a variety of areas, has a long history of promoting odd ball issues, while ignoring basic reforms that actually have something to do with the well-being of student athletes.

Alabama, Florida, Mississippi, Georgia, and Arkansas have Confederate imagery not just in one flag at one monument, but everywhere the state flag is flown. Alabama even has odes to the Confederacy at every interstate rest area. Will the NCAA apply its compliance standards here, or to just fights it wants to handle?

The Georgia state flag

The Confederate national flag

[GvilleSC]

My question is, how is all of this ultimately relevant to the mission of the NCAA? The reasons the NCAA is boycotting the state of South Carolina are because the organization "condemns all forms of discrimination and racism" (which they see the Confederate flag being a symbol of) and it is concerned about "circumstances that create inhospitable environments for [its] student-athletes." What you cited is entirely beyond the domain of the concerns of the NCAA, so I don't see what that has to do with the NCAA partnering with the NAACP to see that something is done about those concerns.

Secondly, while I'm not a member of the NAACP, I must defend them and say that the only time larger society talks about them is when issues like this spring up. We don't have big discussions about events like these, sponsored by the NAACP, because they aren't sensational.

Getting the Confederate flag off the Statehouse grounds isn't a magic bullet, and I don't think the NAACP, or anyone else who agrees with its position (such as myself), believes that; it's all about the message it sends. Most of you guys in Greenville were for the county recognizing the MLK Holiday, not because it would magically make things perfect, but because of the message it sends--correct? So why should it be any different here?

[whitehourseview]

The major difference with GA's state flag and the Confederate national flag is the number of stars. GA's state flag has 13 stars for the original colonies.

[Spartan]

We had an impact on the VRA, whether it's believed or not.

The NAACP just want it removed form the statehouse grounds. The state legislature of SC has been unwilling to sit down to dialogue about such an option to my knowledge. That's why the situation is where it is today. The organization tried to reason with the legislature at the outset, but couldn't get them to budge.

After threat of a boycott, the legislature decided to move the flag from atop the house but leave it on statehouse grounds. That's the hold up.

[krazeeboi]

No, The NCAA is not in charge of improving the lives of African Americans, but they would have a stellar opportunity to hold the NAACP accountable to their mission, just like the NAACP is holding them accountable for not supporting discrimination or racism.

[whitehourseview]

The new Georgia flag still has elements of the old Confederate Flag. If the NAACP is true to its word, it won't have an objection to this one, because it is not the flag used to promote segregation and bigotry.

[scoop]

The NAACP wanted the flag off of the State House dome of all Southern States, which is what they did- SC being the last to follow suit. Then they altered their opinion to reflect their dislike of its current location- and thus the boycott continues.

-

I thought that the NAACP still had a boycott on Mississippi? They are far and away the most beligerant with their state flag.

The new Georgia flag still has elements of the old Confederate Flag. If the NAACP is true to its word, it won't have an objection to this one, because it is not the flag used to promote segregation and bigotry.

[krazeeboi]

not the flag used to promote segregation and bigotry? If we're going that route, then most Southern state flags should be changed, or even change the USA flag for that matter.

The Confederate battle flag was shamefully picked up for use by night riders, KKK and general roust about lost causers.

The state governments were the ones who used their authority to actually police and enforce bigotry and segregation. Were it not for them, then those that used the Confederate battle flag from reconstruction onwards as a symbol of racial oppresion wouldn't have much of a leg to stand on. The flag of the slave trade and advancement of slavery into the western territories was the USA flag.

If the Confederate battle flag is the equivalent of the NAZI swastika, what's that mean for the South Carolina Palmetto and crescent flag?

[g-man430]

Just take down the stupid flag and be done with it.

[GvilleSC]

Maybe the question here should be are we against the flag being moved altogether, or simply the NAACP's handling of the situation? If it's the former, all of the complaints lodged against the NAACP could be brought up against a grassroots effort attempting to do the same.

[adrockc2]

The flag of the slave trade and advancement of slavery into the western territories was the USA flag.

[krazeeboi]

If there was no NAACP to go against, and the citizens (of any race) of SC asked the state to remove the flag, I'd be inclined to believe that it would be more effective.

[scoop]

I think that's the thing though--what organization could possibly make as much noise about this as the NAACP? A grassroots effort wouldn't, because it would essentially be the NAACP without the title (i.e., it would still be an overwhelmingly majority Black effort).

How exactly do you feel the NAACP is excluding non-Blacks who may have some sympathy for this particular cause? I would sincerely like to know how you feel about this. From what I see, the organization only "targets" those who are sympathetic to the flag to the point of wanting it to remain in its present location (or putting it back in its former location).

[GvilleSC]

krazee,

I hope you're not falling for this okedoke. If it were not for the NAACP, black folks would be in bad shape today, just search the record. From civil rights to voting rights, the NAACP has been there. And I might add that there were some very helpful whites who helped to make this organization a success.

I sincerely don't think that much would have changed without the NAACP, SCLC and others. I don't understand how G'vill seems to think that the state of SC would make changes because some of it's citizens asked it to. This insults the intelligence of all of SC's black communities.

So he calls the NAACP an organization that doesn't accept whites? We have some white members and many white supporters. There would not be a need for the NAACP if all people were treated equally, regardless of their race or other differentiating factors.

I'd better stop typing now before I get .............................

[g-man430]

I never said that the NAACP never accomplished anything or was never useful to society. Thanks to many organizations, including the NAACP, and devoted people, we are where we are today and in much better shape. And I thank all the people and their efforts of the past, because I like attending school with and living near a diverse crowd and having the many black friends that I do. I would not change a thing. I'm not sold on the idea however that the NAACP is still needed today.

I'm not insulting the intelligence of the black community.

I'm sure you have white members in the NAACP. But I, as a white individual in 21st century America, would not feel comfortable being a part of the organization. Perhaps it's because of the comments that have appeared in The Greenville News when West End Field was being proposed for Greenville's West End. The pastor of the AME church, whom I do believe is a very outspoken member of the NAACP, claimed things along the lines of: 'the white men are trying to keep the black community down'.

[GvilleSC]

I think that's the thing though--what organization could possibly make as much noise about this as the NAACP? A grassroots effort wouldn't, because it would essentially be the NAACP without the title (i.e., it would still be an overwhelmingly majority Black effort).

[scoop]

I never said that the NAACP never accomplished anything or was never useful to society. Thanks to many organizations, including the NAACP, and devoted people, we are where we are today and in much better shape. And I thank all the people and their efforts of the past, because I like attending school with and living near a diverse crowd and having the many black friends that I do. I would not change a thing. I'm not sold on the idea however that the NAACP is still needed today.

I'm not insulting the intelligence of the black community.

I'm sure you have white members in the NAACP. But I, as a white individual in 21st century America, would not feel comfortable being a part of the organization. Perhaps it's because of the comments that have appeared in The Greenville News when West End Field was being proposed for Greenville's West End. The pastor of the AME church, whom I do believe is a very outspoken member of the NAACP, claimed things along the lines of: 'the white men are trying to keep the black community down'.

[scoop]

The majority of non-blacks just don't feel comfortable with the organization. The NAACP has been attempting to overcome the suppression of the WHITE people. I'm a part of the "enemy" group. I'm not going to take part in an organization that's trying to advance at the expense of other races (i.e. Affirmative Action-- which almost kept me out of Clemson's architecture program, forcing me to pay three times the amount of money at an out of state school. I got in through appeal).

[krazeeboi]

While the effort would still most likely be prodominately black, more white people would feel able to join in, and the negative stigma of the NAACP would be removed from the equation. It's not about just making noise and expecting change. People don't respond well to that. Would you not agree? It's about taking the right steps and making noise at the right times. Going out and drumming up support from EVERYONE, followed by writing representatives and gathering petitions. Then presenting a case in Columbia as SOUTH CAROLINIANS wanting change.

[krazeeboi]

I have split the posts concerning the Confederate flag, the NCAA, and the NAACP off from the off-topic thread to constitute its own topic. Against my better judgment, I'm going to allow this disussion to continue to take place, but I warn you, this thread will be monitored closely. Watch your choice of words and your tone, and above all, be respectful and refrain from anything that could even be misconstrued as inflammatory.

[monsoon]

Well, this is coming from two Democratic candidates for President trying to make a name for themselves. Chris Dodd and Joe Biden are also rans and to come to SC and stir this issue back up again shows they are clueless as John Kerry on what it will take to win the South in a Presidential election. I would doubt they are going to pick off many voters who are opposed to the flag and they certainly won't get any votes from people who support the flag or for that matter anyone who doesn't care. Nobody likes a Yankee coming to town to tell SC how to run its state and its pandering to a certain demographic of the worst sort. Karl Rove/GW Bush couldn't have done better. The fact of the matter is that if either one was elected, they would not do a damn thing about it.

I would have hoped that Dodd or Biden might have suggested what they would have done to end the Iraq War, to keep SC jobs from going to China and Mexico, what they are going to to about the Illegals. All of which have a much more detrimental effect on all SC residents than the Confederate flag flying on the capital. On the flag issue, the residents of SC are one day going to have to resolve that amongst themselves without outsiders getting involved. I don't think that time is here yet mainly because of all of the bad blood that has been stirred up from those looking to take advantage of the situation for themselves.

[Greenville]

I had written a long response to this, but I decided not to post it because this whole issue just pisses me off. The flag serves no purpose. It is a relic from years ago, and means nothing now. Get it out of the public eye. Holding onto it makes our state look backwards. The simple fact that minorities find it offensive should be enough of a reason to get rid of it. The ban is hurting the image of our state, which only hurts everyone in it - including minorities.

P.S. The NAACP has been very cowardly about this whole issue. The agreement (read: compromise) was that the flag would be removed from the state house dome and put in a memorial on the state house grounds. That was supposed to make everyone happy. That occurred, and shortly thereafter the NAACP was upset and changed its mind. I don't get it. Why agree to the compromise if it's not good enough? For that reason, there are probably many people in our state who are against taking down the flag simply because they don't want to let the NAACP get what they want after going back on their word. That is not doing much to advance minorities, is it? It is creating divisiveness, and that is a shame. That is the last thing we need.

[mallguy]

Shame on Joe Biden for playing the race card. I am white and would rather see the flag gone, but Biden is just stirring up antagonism.

Perhaps his opponents should bring up how he ripped off other people's speeches back in the 1980s?