Elizabeth Projects (7th St, Elizabeth Ave, etc)

[SgtCampsalot]

 

19 minutes ago, UrbanGossip said:

Out of curiosity, why is early 20th century New England the ideal look for early 21st century Southeast Charlotte, NC.  I agree from an urban design perspective that this project is "right".  The way it addresses the street, the scale, the articulation in the facade...  But why can that not be achieved by GOOD contemporary design.  Architecture and art exist within a zeitgeist and designing current buildings to emulate buildings from a century ago is just Disneytecture in my opinion.

Go ahead, shout me down...

I'm with you in spirit... IMO the issue is that there hasn't really emerged a coherent architectural language in this region for that 21st century Southeast CLT that the culture could rally around. The closest thing is probably the Old South style wrap-around balconies of Charleston, Savannah, New Orleans, etc.

Although, in reality, what would truly be authentic would just be good old fashioned turn-of-the-twentieth century downtown Charlotte urbanism. The problem is that the policy makes the financing of the development world not touch small development with detail at that scale:

Edited February 1, 2016 by SgtCampsalot

[go_vertical]

I think you might have answered your own question. 20th century NE architecture has historically had decent to good street presence, been built at a more human scale (even taller examples tend to have a setback after the first couple floors, but this is more due to ordinances in some north east cities), and architectural embellishments compliment the style quite well without looking gaudy (in most cases). And from what I've witnessed in many cities, not just Charlotte, it seems like it is easier for developers to produce a decent project in this style than it is to put up a contemporary box. Why that is I have no idea. Contemporary architecture shouldn't be difficult.

[UrbanGossip]

You tee'ed me up perfectly for the point I want to make.  The "new south" style for our time has emerged whether we like it or not.  It is exactly what we are seeing everywhere we look all over the southeast.

1. Cheaply built, stick framed 4 and 5 story
2. Hardie clad
3. Superblocks
4. Homogenous use
5. Simple, contemporary detailing because the architects and developers desperately want it to be chic and modern (emmulating stuff in Seattle, Chicago, etc) though they don't have the budgets for it so it comes out looking boring and cheap.

Art and Architecture are not purely aesthetic or even functional endeavors.  They exist within a time and place and are heavily influenced by the economic, political, etc. landscape of that time and place.  I could write a book here about my thoughts on the economic and political influences that are creating these monsters...  (or maybe Tom Hanchett can now that he's retired!!)  But they include:

1. lax urban design guidelines driven by a conservative/libertarian mindset of "hey, it's your land" (yes, even among liberal council members).
2. Pressure for affordable rents (believe it or not $1,000 a month for a studio is affordable compared to other cities in the north).
3. At the same time that there is a drive for affordable rents, land values in urban environments are ever increasing.
4. Then there is a strong REIT market that turns these things into a hot potato that the developer can't sell fast enough.
5. This same REIT market doesn't want mixed use.  Or at the least mixed use complicates the sale.
6. Etc. etc.

It is all influencing how these things are built and has created our "new style".

[SgtCampsalot]

42 minutes ago, UrbanGossip said:

1. Then there is a strong REIT market that turns these things into a hot potato that the developer can't sell fast enough.
2. This same REIT market doesn't want mixed use.  Or at the least mixed use complicates the sale.

Literally.

It's the same story for decades by now. It is like trying to ask a brick wall to be more like a pillow. The developers representing the REIT simply do not respond to any mix of uses; Then they tell City Council why it doesn't work in their current business plan. And Council feels sympathy for them, and approves no problem. This is the problem with tipping the scales so much that only REITs can "afford" to build: building on scale alone, no local investment. REITs serve a wonderful purpose. But it's the only method in town for playing the game.

Edited February 1, 2016 by SgtCampsalot

[Spartan]

It's not 20th century New England. It's 20th century everywhere. New England is, however, a better reference point for denser 20th century architecture. I hope that Charlotte can evolve its own style over time. In general, it will probably tend to be more modern looking.

That being said. the interesting thing is that the building at 7th & Caswell is the first new apartment building I've seen that was actually to blend in and look like a building from the era when the neighborhood was built (ie: 20th Century). 

 

[go_vertical]

1 hour ago, Spartan said:

I hope that Charlotte can evolve its own style over time. In general, it will probably tend to be more modern looking.

 

I agree. If and when a true Charlotte style comes about I think it will look more like Westin and DEC and less like BofA and Hearst.

[tozmervo]

55 minutes ago, go_vertical said:

I agree. If and when a true Charlotte style comes about I think it will look more like Westin and DEC and less like BofA and Hearst.

 

[Crown]

Drove by the Showmars on 7th/Pecan today and there was a lot of construction activity. Is something else going in there, or are they just renovating? 

[Niner National]

I noticed there was a permit and interior work going on at the retail space beside the pool table store on 3rd street. I couldn't completely read the name on the permit from my car but it looked like it said pizza.

 

Did I miss something about this or is this a known addition to Elizabeth?

[caterpillar2]

On ‎2‎/‎1‎/‎2016 at 9:24 AM, UrbanGossip said:

Out of curiosity, why is early 20th century New England the ideal look for early 21st century Southeast Charlotte, NC.  I agree from an urban design perspective that this project is "right".  The way it addresses the street, the scale, the articulation in the facade...  But why can that not be achieved by GOOD contemporary design.  Architecture and art exist within a zeitgeist and designing current buildings to emulate buildings from a century ago is just Disneytecture in my opinion.

Go ahead, shout me down...

Just curious, I have never heard a form of architecture called "20th :century New England."  Is there actually such a category? Are you talking about Victorian? And, when you refer to "articulation in the facade,"  what are you referring to?  I believe the word articulation refers to speech.

[teeg]

2 hours ago, Niner National said:

I noticed there was a permit and interior work going on at the retail space beside the pool table store on 3rd street. I couldn't completely read the name on the permit from my car but it looked like it said pizza.

 

Did I miss something about this or is this a known addition to Elizabeth?

WebPermit says Domino's, which would make sense given that they recently closed the S. King's store.  

[Niner National]

2 hours ago, teeg said:

WebPermit says Domino's, which would make sense given that they recently closed the S. King's store.  

Also makes sense since there is very little parking there.

[UrbanGossip]

20 hours ago, caterpillar2 said:

Just curious, I have never heard a form of architecture called "20th :century New England."  Is there actually such a category? Are you talking about Victorian? And, when you refer to "articulation in the facade,"  what are you referring to?  I believe the word articulation refers to speech.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Articulation_(architecture)

Someone had commented that they loved the New England style apartments.  I agree with you - I would say "whatever that means".  I think they are looking at the curved facade on the corner, the dentil molding at the parapet, etc.  My question was why is that the look to emulate in 21st century Charlotte?

Edited March 7, 2016 by UrbanGossip

[caterpillar2]

2 hours ago, UrbanGossip said:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Articulation_(architecture)

Someone had commented that they loved the New England style apartments.  I agree with you - I would say "whatever that means".  I think they are looking at the curved facade on the corner, the dentil molding at the parapet, etc.  My question was why is that the look to emulate in 21st century Charlotte?

Thanks for making me a little smarter. I am in Boston every summer. My grandmother lived in Revere  Beach for 70 years since immigrating from Europe. I had never heard the term 20th century New England. I personally prefer the Victorian style homes of Old England,  Thanks for the info.

[nonillogical]

http://www.charlotteobserver.com/news/business/article64602787.html

Seriously, I give up. I just give up. 

[InitialD]

16 hours ago, nonillogical said:

http://www.charlotteobserver.com/news/business/article64602787.html

Seriously, I give up. I just give up. 

Yeah, looks like Crown Station, the Visualite, and Double Door are all on the chopping block. RIP Elizabeth.

[SgtCampsalot]

4 minutes ago, InitialD said:

the Visualite, are all on the chopping block. RIP Elizabeth.

The Visulite? The building, or just the business?

[Prodev]

The Visulite is definitely not a part of this. It's disappointing news though, not only to potentially lose the Double Door, but because the other parcels were one of the last sizable tracts on Elizabeth ave not controlled by Novant, so this will further limit how great Elizabeth Ave can ultimately be.  

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, Prodev said:

The Visulite is definitely not a part of this. It's disappointing news though, not only to potentially lose the Double Door, but because the other parcels were one of the last sizable tracts on Elizabeth ave not controlled by Novant, so this will further limit how great Elizabeth Ave can ultimately be.  

And Elizabeth's vision, goes the way of Brevards. So it goes... So it goes. We can all thank Clay Grubb for Levine-ing up this whole street.

Edited March 8, 2016 by Guest

[nonillogical]

Visulite is not on the chopping block, and Double Door is not definite, but I am not optimistic (that's losing Chop Shop, Tremont, and Double Door in the space of a year for those of you like me who used to enjoy a vibrant local music scene here). The strip of buildings definitely being lost represents some of the last low-cost spaces hosting interesting businesses in the area. According to some of the current tenants being forced out, they heard they will be replaced by...wait for it...a parking deck. They heard no mention of retail though I'm sure there will be some token poorly-designed never-used spaces like the CPCC deck at 7th & Charlottetown. 

[ah59396]

I wouldn't be shocked if the Visulite goes too.  This city and its leadership have no interest in actually developing a culture or maintaining what remains of the city's heritage.  The transplants that have recently moved here don't give a crap about what Charlotte used to be either.  I made a conscious decision a while back that if I actually want to experience destinations with character or soul, the only positive about Charlotte is that it's close to cities that are interested in keeping theirs (Asheville, Greenville, Durham, ect).

I love living in this city, but seriously it is well on its way to being a bunch of stupid fudgeing rooftop hotel bars called Yoma and more Asian fusion sushi restaurants built in the bottom of parking decks next to the latest yoga craze.  Nothing is sacred in this town.

 

edit:  And anyone that wants to claim that this is a part of a city "growing up" can save their breath.  I've seen other cities undergo expansive growth equal to Charlotte's and still not take a crap on its soul.

Edited March 8, 2016 by ah59396

[nonillogical]

^ I'm pretty pessimistic right now but I don't think the Visulite will go any time soon since it is sandwiched in by a row of successful businesses (and is very successful itself), and is part of SUCH an obvious downtown row. It's still my favorite all around venue in any city actually. If it were in a standalone building, yes it would be a goner too, and yes I don't think anything can be considered sacred anymore. Even with all the new bars and restaurants opening up, some quite good, I am steadily losing hangout spots in this city, not gaining them. I haven't mentioned here that I am likely moving to Denver later in the year, and it is this kind of stuff that makes me less sad to leave. 

 

[kermit]

Yea, this seriously steams my piss. There is no reason that CPCC should have so little sensitivity to the neighborhood that surrounds it and there is also no reason to build more parking here before they even consider leverageing the streetcar for park and ride kinds of activities. In addition there are several other places that make much more sense for a deck in the area (e.g. Between the substation and 277 or as part of a memorial stadium rebuild for MLS).  

Stupid stupid stupid

Edited March 8, 2016 by kermit

[CLT2014]

^ This is a nationwide problem. Developers all over the country buy up prime lots and build cheap ugly apartments. Some developers do an ok job, but Southend stuff is pretty much the norm in most places. While Denver is better at revitalizing neighborhoods, they have this problem too to an extent (just not as bad) and complain about the current development cycle. This strip will be soon destroyed in Denver for stucco apartments:

"

We are witnessing the homogenization and blanding of Denver into another Pasadena, Scottsdale, Plano, Kingwood or name-another-bland-suburb.

It's disgusting.

"

http://www.westword.com/restaurants/readers-developers-are-destroying-what-made-neighborhood-special-7583702

http://www.westword.com/restaurants/readers-developers-do-not-care-about-the-buildings-and-neighborhoods-they-destroy-7568513

Edited March 8, 2016 by CLT2014

[CLTProductions]

yeah we are definitely not alone. Asheville and Greenville have the benefit of being much much smaller. All the "it" cities have this issue. Look at this image of Austin. This is downtown. Right next door to a cool graffiti house restaurant we see a giant beige monster. Not excusing Charlotte from it, just saying it's a nationwide problem, not just a Charlotte one. 

That said, I am 90% sure Visulite and those buildings are safe. 

Edited March 8, 2016 by Jayvee