Elizabeth Projects (7th St, Elizabeth Ave, etc)

[turbocraig]

I have the sinking feeling that this little stretch of 7th is gonna be like Latta Pavillion on East with this new redevelopment. Big ideas; less than stellar execution.

[cooperdawg]

DAMN!!! I'm a Jack's regular. This certainly pisses me off.

[DigitalSky]

7th St. has a lot of charm. I hope that whatever happens, it can retain that.

[voyager12]

I don't find the current strip center along 7th near Pecan to be blighted at all. I patronize The Dollar General and many of the other stores there. It functions quite well. Is accessible by foot and offers a variety of services for mixed incomes. Jack's and the other restaurants create a nice walkable district. I know the deal was not some gvt takeover. The owners sold out under their own volition and probably made a bundle but I doubt that whatever replaces these establishments will have the same authentic feel

[ElricSeven]

If they are affordable and marketed to young people, it will really give the Whole Foods an interesting vibe, like the uptown Teet.

Nothing like having a grocery full of people from upstairs in their pajamas, picking up a bowl of cereal or and sub sandwich.

If MetMidtown is any indication, this place will be gawdaful expensive also. The hubris of Pappas on setting the price for MetMidtown astounds me.

[dubone]

I agree, voyager. I think there is a lot of risk that it won't be as authentic. It is an odd thing about infill and densification, as in many cases, the original sets of buildings aren't designed to to maximize the use of the land, but they grew bit by bit. Larger projects them lack the organic growth, and associated goodwill among users, but deliver modernizations, better land use like structured parking, and higher densities to support the population. We must wait to see the dev plans.

[voyager12]

I feel like I am missing something. If it's not broken, don't fix it! Why can't they preserve the existing buildings and do enhancements? I guess the bottom line is the money that can be made by tearing down and cramming in as much new development as possible. I don't have the same negative reaction to the Liz Avenue rehab because they are reviving an already downtrodden area but the portion of 7th St involved in this project is already thriving. I wish for once developers would leave an older successful Charlotte neighborhood alone. And that the owners of the doomed restaurants would have cared more about the character of the neighborhood instead of selling out for the almighty dollar.

[atlrvr]

I'm pretty confident that we will see prices set above $375k per square foot.

[atlrvr]

But to leave well enough alone means that change never occurs, and I don't view that as a positive. The Dollar general strip center certainly replaced single-family homes that were originally there, which replaced natural forests that worked perfectly well for the original inhabitants (wildlife).

The fact is, Charlotte is a growing city, so we can redevelop intown properties, or we can sprawl outwards at an ever greater rate. We may not always be happy with the results, but if we don't move forward, we stagnate, and the lack of positive energy is just as damaging to a neighborhoods character.

[voyager12]

We all know that Charlotte is a new and growing city but I for one wish that there was at least some attempt at preserving the older product that worked well for decades and is the inspiration for "The New Urbanist" craze to begin with. This approach will never work in Charlotte because city and county gvt could care less about preserving authenticity and are seemingly obsessed with putting faux urban mini Birkdale Villages all over this city. Thank goodness for the limited historic protections covering portions of Dilworth and Plaza Midwood are we would be left with nothing at all.

[ElricSeven]

I'm pretty confident that we will see prices set above $375k per square foot.

Is it me or does there seem to be a serious disconnect between what condo resales are going for versus what they're asking for new construction?

[atlrvr]

Pre-steel/concrete price run-up vs. post-cost run-up.

But yes...there is a very serious middle area that has little inventory which is the $275-$325psf range....the question is, will existing properties quickly rise into this hole in pricing, or will flippers take a hit and fall in the hole.

I suspect things will be skewed until 2010 or so, when the new construction boom has ended and ARM's have adjusted. We will have a real sense then, if there is enough demand to lift all properties, or if this was a passing fad, and the newest and shiniest have to fall back to reality.

[ElricSeven]

Pre-steel/concrete price run-up vs. post-cost run-up.

But yes...there is a very serious middle area that has little inventory which is the $275-$325psf range....the question is, will existing properties quickly rise into this hole in pricing, or will flippers take a hit and fall in the hole.

I suspect things will be skewed until 2010 or so, when the new construction boom has ended and ARM's have adjusted. We will have a real sense then, if there is enough demand to lift all properties, or if this was a passing fad, and the newest and shiniest have to fall back to reality.

My understanding is that construction inflation-based increases usually stick much better than speculative gains. There's a finite amount that were purchased by the flippers, so even if they cause a divot, you would think that would dry up with inventory.

[monsoon]

If MetMidtown is any indication, this place will be gawdaful expensive also. The hubris of Pappas on setting the price for MetMidtown astounds me.

A read of this rune will be helpful.

[dubone]

I do have a strong interest in saving the old houses on the southern part of 7th. I have zero interest in saving the low-qual strip mall that houses the Dollar General and Roy's Flowers.

To me, though, they can be moved to someplace and returned to their optimal use, a nice home.

I hate good things being replaced with infill, but I hate suburban sprawl even more. The only way Charlotte can grow in the right way is for densification to occur any way that it can be high-quality and viable.

Clearly, these businesses will all find other spots to succeed, possibly even in a new building on the same spot.

[cinco]

^ i pretty much feel the same way.... dollar general strip is nothing worth saving, IMO. i'm not talking about the type of retail cause i'd like to see all of those occupants remain in that location, but, it really is poor usage of land space. that parking lot is all f'd up. however, i do loathe the idea of redeveloping the other side of 7th. i personally do not like philosphers stone, nor i'm a patron of jacks (la de da has great sandwiches), but those buildings are part of the heart of elizabeth... it would be a shame to lose that block of electic buildings.

i do agree that the latta pavillon on east blvd is crap and i really hope this doesn't end up resembling that project.

[cinco]

well, i might as well throw in my praise for this project, too. i think darth vader said it best..."shock and awe".

nice design and these are about the best skyline views you can get.

Edited September 26, 2006 by cinco

[voyager12]

I have always enjoyed The Phil Stone for a variety of reasons. Chief among them, the eclectic crowd that it draws. Based on what has happened in other parts of Charlotte, I can only surmise that what will replace these restaurants will be very high end and cater to a select few. This further marginalizes those of us that don't fit the affluent market demo that Charlotte has wholeheartedly embraced and offers nothing for the rest of us. This wave is on the march towards Thomas St next I bet, and maybe that threat will wake people up but I doubt it .This current project is truly ripping the folksy heart out of Elizabeth and is a tragedy.

[Seabreeze]

Plans are starting to show up on transportation plans at MUMPO, the group that cooridinates this area's road money, to convert 7th to 4 lanes (2 lanes/direction) between Independence and Laurel.

Well you guys, this may be happening faster than we know. Tonight there were orange cones and pavers all over 7th St... between Independence Blvd. and... you know it, Laurel. Could be unrelated I just found this to be a bit coincidental

[graydog]

Converting Seventh to four lanes between Independence and Laurel is a terrible idea. East Blvd gets reduced to two lanes from four, but Seventh gets widend? Huh? The area has heavy pedestrian traffic due to Independence Park and the fact that residents of Elizabeth actually walk places. If they would simply pave it, I'd be happy. Besides what will they do to get the land, bulldoze St Martin's Episcopal Church?

This part of Elizabeth, especially Pecan and 7th is my favorite area of Charlotte. I Agree entirely with you MC. If anything, the road should be reduced as East was. However, repaving would encourage speeding, so I'm torn on that idea. I know plenty of 4 lane roads with ped access, but the new East Blvd. configuration is so good and would fit so well on this part of 7th.

There's a lot of new residential activity in this area too. I think it gets lost because the projects are not Uptown and they're pretty simple. Plus most don't require rezoning.

Does anyone know the plans for train tracks?

Edited September 26, 2006 by graydog

[Charlotte_native]

Is it me or does there seem to be a serious disconnect between what condo resales are going for versus what they're asking for new construction?

Developers a few years back based pre-construction pricing on the "current" pricing at the time they announced the project and began taking contracts or reservations. This was when the condo market in center city and close in areas was less proven and they needed to sell quickly for the banks to fund the project. They also didn't know, themselves, whether sales would be brisk or not.

Confidence in sales is high in the Charlotte market so now they add in some additional pricing to more match the 'current' pricing for when they are done. Call it built-in assumed inflation. Across the board in Charlotte condo projects are priced just above, or far above, what the same unit would fetch today.

They did this partly from watching investors buy and flip over the past few years and realized how much cash was being left on the table. Generally this stepped up pricing started about a year or two ago.

Edited September 26, 2006 by Charlotte_native

[dubone]

Actually, seabreeze and MC, the repaving is about to begin. Google it, and you'll see it yr approved for repaving a few months ago. The utility work in the area is what caused the rapid depreciation of the asphalt. Now, I actually can't find the mention for the widening that I saw before, so maybe it was mislabelled and just referring to the repaving. I still want it widened, but that isn't likely any time for decades.

[ElricSeven]

Developers a few years back based pre-construction pricing on the "current" pricing at the time they announced the project and began taking contracts or reservations. This was when the condo market in center city and close in areas was less proven and they needed to sell quickly for the banks to fund the project. They also didn't know, themselves, whether sales would be brisk or not.

Confidence in sales is high in the Charlotte market so now they add in some additional pricing to more match the 'current' pricing for when they are done. Call it built-in assumed inflation. Across the board in Charlotte condo projects are priced just above, or far above, what the same unit would fetch today.

They did this partly from watching investors buy and flip over the past few years and realized how much cash was being left on the table. Generally this stepped up pricing started about a year or two ago.

Like I said, they've got some hubris to have the buyer shoulder a bunch of the risk and not leave any of the profits to the buyer. I guess there will be a bunch of buyers dumb enough to fall for it, but eventually this will come home to roost when very high anticipated gains don't materialize and people closing find themselves upside down by 20%. One anecdotal story of such an occurence will go a long way to chilling sales for everyone for a long time.

[atlrvr]

Not to keep taking this off topic, but a new condo tower here in Boston is having an auction because they couldn't sell 40% of the units. Pre-sells did great when the market was flying high, but now they can't close the remaining units out. Minimum bids are going to be 40% off the last asking price (which has already been reduced by 10% off the original asking price).....I can imagine that a lot of the original purchasers will be sad to see that their condo's value decreased by about 30% on one Saturday afternoon in October.

To get back on topic, as many people have said, the best way to insulate against this is to study the economics of buildings and buy in buildings that are being sold at a reasonable value, to buy in properties that are unique/have additional instrinsic value beyond a concrete cube, and be willing to live there for 5+ years.

[Charlotte_native]

Like I said, they've got some hubris to have the buyer shoulder a bunch of the risk and not leave any of the profits to the buyer. I guess there will be a bunch of buyers dumb enough to fall for it, but eventually this will come home to roost when very high anticipated gains don't materialize and people closing find themselves upside down by 20%. One anecdotal story of such an occurence will go a long way to chilling sales for everyone for a long time.

I didn't say I agreed with it, just pointing out the facts.

The volume of new projects doesn't seem to end, though, and plenty are lining up to buy what is being put out there. The fact that all of these projects are being marketed at what could be considered future values still makes many concerned about investors buying them expecting a profit after they are built.