Elizabeth Projects (7th St, Elizabeth Ave, etc)

[otherstream]

I agree, voyager. I think there is a lot of risk that it won't be as authentic. It is an odd thing about infill and densification, as in many cases, the original sets of buildings aren't designed to to maximize the use of the land, but they grew bit by bit. Larger projects them lack the organic growth, and associated goodwill among users, but deliver modernizations, better land use like structured parking, and higher densities to support the population. We must wait to see the dev plans.

Respectfully, I have to point out that many of the exact same arguments were made about the so-called "slum clearance" and "urban renewal" projects of the 1960s, namely that old development patterns were not sufficiently "modern" nor "efficient" and that bulldozing them en masse was necessary to create a living, growing city. The few inner-city areas that managed to survive this school of thought and make it to the present in their "inefficient" state are now some of the most desirable places to live and do business in most American cities.

I don't think we're going to be any more successful now that we're calling it "densification" rather than "urban renewal". There's more to urbanity than just simple density. Seventh Street right now is one of the most urban places in all of Charlotte, mainly because of its variety, which I'd argue is considerably more important to an "urban feel" than density is.

We shouldn't place the whole neighborhood in a stasis chamber, obviously, but the idea that bulldozing whole areas in the name of "density" will make these areas more "vital" and "urban" is ludicrous. Most of these massive, overplanned projects are absolutely lethal to neighborhood variety. They're not "infill" at all; that term suggests that something was inserted into the streetscape, not that something replaced it entirely.

I'd hate to see Seventh Street looking like South Boulevard or the "new and improved" Elizabeth Avenue: giant walls of "density" with all the charm of a suburban office park. That's what happens when you rebuild a neighborhood over a period of just a couple of years. There's no texture at all, just a big wall of boring spaces that were all built last week and will look like crap in twenty years.

[atlrvr]

I halfway buy in, but don't completely. These places could be demolished and replaced with something that is more urban, or they could be replaced with bigger masses with no real urbanity. It is all up to the developer, and that is a scary feeling.

Of the two developers, I have high hopes for what will replace Dollar Genera/Visart, but I'm nervous about the opposite side of the street.

Luckily, both will require a rezoning, so it gives everyone the opportunity to ask for the best product possible, and if citizens don't participate in teh process, then they can only blame themselves.

[uptownliving]

Don't think this siteplan has been posted yet of the Whole Foods part of Elizabeth:

Edited September 26, 2006 by uptownliving

[atlrvr]

Don't think this siteplan has been posted yet of the Whole Foods part of Elizabeth:

Ooooohhh...I like how the hotel drive is imbedded withing the parking deck and not along Elizabeth.....very urban

[voyager12]

I agree with much of Stream's analysis. I tried to express such beliefs as cogently but I get too emotional and it just blurts out VisArt is such a unique store with a great variety of movies. I will be sad to see it go. I highly doubt that the developer will allow a quirky independent store to reoccupy the new space.

[dubone]

I did say earlier that I agreed that I didn't want new crap put in, but without any development plan details, none of us know if the new project would have the bad stuff. For example, it could just be three story spots placed to abutt the street, and act as an extension of the old storefronts that house Heroes and Starbucks.

I think there may be a disconnect on what defines "urban" to some. It's almost like "stuff-put-there-when-the-neighborhood-was-1/2-abandonned-after-suburban-flight" is the definition that fits. I agree that Grubb made many mistakes with Latta Pavillion. But were the single story strip mall and Pizza Hut that were there before more 'urban'? Some of the arguments here would have applied to that.

But I don't think there are any similarities to urban renewal. This isn't a government wiping out an entire neighborhood for racial reasons with the hope that someone would eventually redevelop it with something better. This is a handful of parcels that have been bought with high land values, and needing to put something new in to recoup costs, and increase the density of an area.

When land values increase, there are only two routes to go: pursue the moneyed classes, or increase the density.

Visart isn't a unique store, it is a chain. They don't need to be in a run-down strip mall to be a good store. And, I'm not sure if this is clear, but Dollar General is also a chain.

You have no arguement from me on the old homes on the south side of 7th. But I actively want redevelopment of the strip mall.

For the others, this is the strip mall, I'm talking about:

I want these buildings, from 1937, to stay:

[voyager12]

Well, aside from a store in Chapel Hill I have not seen many Visarts around, so if they are a "chain" its rather small and they also provide great space in the front of their store for local bands and other groups to advertise. Their closure will be a loss to many in the community as will be the closing of The Dollar General for those who won't be able to afford to shop in the pricey replacement. I also disagree with the belief that something new and supposedly more "dense" is always preferable to working with what is already there and making it even better.

Edited September 27, 2006 by voyager12

[Charlotte_native]

The Visulite should be very happy about this! Plenty of parking added across the street, hotel so bigger bands might attract folks from out of town, and residents right there.

So glad to see some movement in this area.

[cinco]

Well, aside from a store in Chapel Hill I have not seen many Visarts around, so if they are a "chain" its rather small and they also provide great space in the front of their store for local bands and other groups to advertise. Their closure will be a loss to many in the community as will be the closing of The Dollar General for those who won't be able to afford to shop in the pricey replacement. I also disagree with the belief that something new and supposedly more "dense" is always preferable to working with what is already there and making it even better.

vis-art is based out of durham.... they only have a hand full of stores.

btw, i'm sure most of you know this but this area was called STANLEYVILLE for many years up until the 90's.

Edited September 27, 2006 by cinco

[Charlotte_native]

I think there may be a disconnect on what defines "urban" to some. It's almost like "stuff-put-there-when-the-neighborhood-was-1/2-abandonned-after-suburban-flight" is the definition that fits. I agree that Grubb made many mistakes with Latta Pavillion. But were the single story strip mall and Pizza Hut that were there before more 'urban'?

Just a quick correction, Latta did not replace a strip mall. It took out a Pizza Hut, a small storefront building on the corner (I think from the 1930's), a handful of bungalows, an Italian Restaurant with outdoor cafe seating, and a beautiful 1920's mediterranean style apartment building. There was no strip mall there. That being said I am glad Latta is there and wish the Epicurean site would finally get something.

As for the strip center on 7th, I would hope that is all that would go. The nightlife from Jacks, and Philosophers Stone is important for that area, IMO. The year or two of construction will deaden that area if they close down -- the other restaurants in the area are great, but small bars do much more for that kind of area. Look what the "temporary" closing of Fat City did to the nightlife and gallery crawls in North Davidson. After 4 years it is finally coming back.

[lupitachica]

But, a four lane road with skinny lanes would still be as ped friendly as the current street.

I'm skeptical of this. Personally I don't see how people cross over 7th or Monroe now - its very pedestrial unfriendly. Widening the lanes would only make it worse I think, if they do not increase the number of traffic lights/crosswalks and improve the flow of traffic. Not to say that I don't think widening the lanes is needed, particularly if they plan on increasing public transportation service along the route. But taking the bus down Monroe into Uptown I've often thought to myself that I wouldn't feel it reasonably safe to allow a child to attempt crossing the street to see a friend on the other side. I've tried crossing the street by that little strip mall, its not comfortable at all imo.

Also they need to widen the sidewalks all the way up 7th and Monroe. These single file sized sidewalks throughout Charlotte are absolutely ridiculous.

Whatever changes they make to 7th and Monroe - I'd hope they would make them with the idea to encourage public transportation and pedestrian use rather than it being about making it easier for the drivers who don't want to use Independence.

[dubone]

I guess I'm stating a lot of controversial things.

I thought it was a strip mall at Latta, but okay.

Visart is a chain, but a very small semi-local chain that deserves our patronage. But my point is that it didn't develop over decades in this building. It developed in Durham, spread to Thrill Hill, and then added a store in a strip mall in Elizabeth. Visart could go many places in the area and be exactly the same. It is not tied to the building.

I know four lanes is harder to cross than 3 lanes. In my pedestrian life, I cross many many 4 lane roads (2/d). To me, they could make the lanes skinny to calm traffic, add pedestian crossing amenities and use a street widening to improve streetscape, bury utilities, and replant trees. It would be a net improvement to pedestrian friendliness over the current road.

[voyager12]

So when is this going to hit the local press? I have not read or heard a whiff of it officially yet.

Edited September 28, 2006 by voyager12

[atlrvr]

According to next week's print CBJ, The Conformity Corp. has now got Roy White's flower and the adjacent undeveloped parcel under contract....White was a hold out and is technically separate from the rest of the strip center.

It reports the Conf. Corp and The Blvd Co. are in initial talks with City Planning about the site.

[uptownliving]

Well I am happy that it is Conformity and Blvd Co...they have shown in the past that they are willing to work with the surrounding neighborhoods to build a quality project.

[dubone]

Knowing it is Conformity, I suspect many will be pleased that what goes in place will not be generic upscale boringness. Hopefully, thing slow down for the other side of the street.

[atlrvr]

Well I am happy that it is Conformity and Blvd Co...they have shown in the past that they are willing to work with the surrounding neighborhoods to build a quality project.

Except for the Elizabeth Neighborhood HATES Chris Branch (Blvd. Co), for the project at Laurel and Randolph.

The accused him of trying to find loop-holes in public meeting rules, etc. and spoke against him at the rezoning. They were denied the rezoning in a land-slide, so that is why they are now building townhouses and not the midrise at the site.

Monte (of Conf. Corp) is more well liked, so we will see where all this leads....I expect it to be contentious, but they will have a good argument of reducing traffic, and increasing pedestrian friendliness if they propose what I suspect, which will be a range of 3-4 story buildings with ground floor retail and condos above.

[appatone]

Err... This is why I need to get internet access in my apartment. Only getting online every two weeks or so causes me to miss things like this when there hot topics. Anyway, I'm really excited about this.

[Seabreeze]

Well everyone, I have a sad post !!!

Tonight I saw on the news how CPCC had finally purchased Athens and were moving forward with a parking deck there. I told a friend and we decided to eat there, as we have been long time patrons (he had actually been going there occasionally for 26 years). We spoke with the waitstaff and found out that tonight will be their last night, and will be closing down for good tomorrow. I know it isn't the greatest, but it is one true Charlotte landmark gone. Even sadder, the plans of moving the restaurant to Matthews have failed, and there is no place they are moving as of yet.

Just thought I would let everyone know now in case someone wanted to go have one last 3am cheeseburger

[DigitalSky]

I do like that siteplan too.

And

It is sad about the Athens closing down. Just another testament to what Charlotte is.

[dubone]

I still don't quite get it. Why wouldn't Athens just take a spot at the bottom of the new parking deck. They could keep all of their equipment and furniture and spent almost nothing on the upfit. They could make their Spaghetti, Steak, Hamburgers, etc. sign a marquis on the 2nd or 3rd floor of the deck at the corner, and create something great.

I just don't get it. Why are they so married to their original building?

[Conformity]

This is my first post ever to an urbanplanet forum, although I have been a voyeur for several months now. I would be happy to shed some light on a few of the "goings on" along 7th, but want to be careful not to get booted. Given that I am a developer, I will look to others to catch me before I cross any lines; although I don't think that will be a problem.

I am not out to sell units in this environment, but rather to understand more deeply how different people view the built environment....how people want to live....how to create the feeling of incremental execution...even on larger lots...what are we doing right and more importantly, what are we doing wrong.

I've just registered and am not terribly capable as relates to the blog world....so I hope you will bear with me. For instance, I'm not entirely sure this is a blog.

At any rate, I am anxious to discuss to my plans (with the understanding that I will have to be guarded with some information).

May I jump in?

[monsoon]

I've just registered and am not terribly capable as relates to the blog world....so I hope you will bear with me. For instance, I'm not entirely sure this is a blog.

At any rate, I am anxious to discuss to my plans (with the understanding that I will have to be guarded with some information).

May I jump in?

We are on a web forum instead of a blog with the biggest difference being that any member can start a topic on a relevant subject. You are more than welcome to join in the conversations here as long as you respect our rules. (link is posted at the top of the page)

[Conformity]

I did read the rules. Thanks.

My company controls the Roy White Flowers Building, the related vacant land and Arrow Laundry, which, believe it or not was under separate ownership.

Were we to move forward, we would not touch the historically significant corner..... Elizabeth's original commercial district. For now, though, the corner is a non-issue given that there are two other owners in the center between here and there.

The Conformity Corporation has more preservation tax credit certified ventures under its belt than anyone in Charlotte. We can be relied upon when it comes to preservation. www.therutzler.com (sold out....so not a pitch....just a cool project)

I should mention that as an Elizabeth resident, I frequent Visart. In fact the 2 disc special edition ET is downstairs waiting for its turn in the DVD player. In many ways, national credit retail (as opposed to mom and pop) is one of the great challenges for the urban practioner.

Mom and pops keep the development crunchy, but national credit boosts the economics and can make the difference between a development that works or doesn't work. There are many other fascinating differences as well.

We are not involved with that part of the center which houses VisArt

I mean "practitioner".....dead without spellcheck.

[monsoon]

.... We can be relied upon when it comes to preservation. www.therutzler.com (sold out....so not a pitch....just a cool project).....

The website stinks however. You guys ought to stay away from the annoying flash technology as most people are not going to wait around while it loads or will install flash if they don't have it.