Elizabeth Projects (7th St, Elizabeth Ave, etc)

[Guest]

Bad news guys. Thanks to another major anchor pulling out of elizabeth avenue this project is getting scaled down drastically. Here is a quote from the CBJ article.

Grubb is still pushing forward, just in a different

Edited December 8, 2008 by Guest

[DigitalSky]

That's sad, the turn this project has taken from what was originally envisioned. I wonder what home furnishings retailer pulled out of the project... I'm guessing it's in the vein of West Elm/Pottery Barn/Crate and Barrel... maybe CB2?

[voyager12]

Depressing. I am still holding out hope that this street will build on the great restaurants already there and become an established walkable urban friendly destination. I was in Blowing Rock this week and while the comparsion is way skewed, they have more of a walkable urban vibe with stores and restaurants than we do. Liz Ave could help fill this niche. I am hoping for a blocks long version of great but way too small Thomas, North Davidson, and Camden streets.

Edited December 8, 2008 by voyager12

[New Name]

I was just reading about Savanna's "Wireless Streetcar," and it made me think about the tracks that are being placed currently on Elizabeth. Savanna took a historic steel-wheel trolley and powered it by a bio diesel motor. They left the overhead contact arm in place, and plan to eventually power it by the normal overhead catenary wire. They bought the trolley, restored and outfit it and engineered it for $1M. Sounds like something that could happen here in CLT. Now where could we find some underused historic trolleys?

PS: Oh and if I'm not mistaken, wasn't the catenary system to be installed in this phase anyway?

[atlrvr]

Elizabeth Ave between Kings and Charlottetown is now open. I drove it last night. I love driving on top of rail tracks...how urban

[49er]

quick, someone pave over them!

[Guest]

No! Don't do that. We need them just in case it doesn't happen! That way when we are like 70 we can tell our grandkids about the train that used to go down eliz. They won't have to know its not true!

[49er]

getting back on track..., i read up on the Savannah trolley and man what a cheap way to get a little bit of rail transit up and running. Too bad liz avenue will only have 1/2 mile of track when its done. At about a mile maybe we could consider something like that here, we already have the trolleys.

[Spartan]

Savannah has had the track on River St for years though, so its just a matter of buying a train to run on it.

[sakami]

Winter has filed their rezoning petition for the land bordered by 7th, Rainier and Weddington. The application lists 6.8 acres and may contain up to 400 residential units. They specifically say there will be no retail or commercial use in the project. There is also mention of potentially creating an extension for Bascom St and I'm guessing closing off Rainier. Without any retail or commercial elements I don't see a lot of positives about this project. The link for the application and the site plan is below.

http://www.charmeck.org/Departments/Planni...ns/2009-048.htm

[atlrvr]

No commercial was a big rallying point of the community when the mini-small area plan was done last year. I absolutely agree that it is ridiculous not to have ~5,000 sq. ft. or so of retail where the future Bascom extension will intersect with 7th.

Overall, the project is "ok" in my opinion.

[SCLA]

Winter has filed their rezoning petition for the land bordered by 7th, Rainier and Weddington. The application lists 6.8 acres and may contain up to 400 residential units. They specifically say there will be no retail or commercial use in the project. There is also mention of potentially creating an extension for Bascom St and I'm guessing closing off Rainier. Without any retail or commercial elements I don't see a lot of positives about this project. The link for the application and the site plan is below.

http://www.charmeck.org/Departments/Planni...ns/2009-048.htm

Thanks for sharing the rezoning link to this. Personally, I rather like the idea that's presented: a higher, better use than the rundown stuff there now; an up-to-the-street urban face; internal hidden parking, w/ other street parking on the interior-n'hood side. Of course it remains to be seen what it'll really look like once the elevations etc. are completed and shared; the devil is in the details. I hafta say, I hope it looks better than the Eliz. Court project next door to it @ the corner of Firefighter & Weddington......I don't take any pleasure out of criticizing its design quality, but really, to me it's a very good example of a developer who either doesn't have the talent, won't pay for it, or simply could care less about design quality, but jumps on the bandwagon of some semblance of the NTD look just to cram in more DU/acre. I find it hard to believe that many people are attracted to staring out your back window across to your neighbor's vinyl-clad garage doors. Yuck.

About the mixed-use aspect: I would suggest that maybe it's a good thing to not have it included; all those units can only help make the corner of 7th & Pecan more revitalized w/ a short walk or drive a couple blocks away. Mixed-use is great, sure, but oughta be considered on a case-by-case basis; if it only serves to further dilute commercial & office attention away from a node like 7th & Pecan, just b/c every new project "should" include it, then I think it's a negative. Assuming Charlotte comes out of this recession healthy and growing sustainably again, I can foresee that node of Elizabeth becoming really great as far as pedestrian & car-friendly, I mean even more so than it has been on its own, maybe with some minor traffic engineering improvements. It could really one day be as great as Virginia-Highlands [in Atlanta].

[sakami]

I guess I am just very concerned about the details. To a large extent as a neighborhood Chantilly was very open to the idea of the proposed Doral re-development (outside of the reinforced bridge plan) when it was a true mixed-use project. Adding 400 rental units right outside the neighborhood doesn't seem like much of an addition to the area. I believe the Elizabeth Court apartments on Hawthorne at the independence Bridge are not fully occupied so adding even more apartments to the saturated area right now is not a particularly welcome addition to the neighborhood. But I have to confess I am worried about my neighborhood so perhaps I'm not particularly open-minded about it.

Thanks for sharing the rezoning link to this. Personally, I rather like the idea that's presented: a higher, better use than the rundown stuff there now; an up-to-the-street urban face; internal hidden parking, w/ other street parking on the interior-n'hood side. Of course it remains to be seen what it'll really look like once the elevations etc. are completed and shared; the devil is in the details. I hafta say, I hope it looks better than the Eliz. Court project next door to it @ the corner of Firefighter & Weddington......I don't take any pleasure out of criticizing its design quality, but really, to me it's a very good example of a developer who either doesn't have the talent, won't pay for it, or simply could care less about design quality, but jumps on the bandwagon of some semblance of the NTD look just to cram in more DU/acre. I find it hard to believe that many people are attracted to staring out your back window across to your neighbor's vinyl-clad garage doors. Yuck

About the mixed-use aspect: I would suggest that maybe it's a good thing to not have it included; all those units can only help make the corner of 7th & Pecan more revitalized w/ a short walk or drive a couple blocks away. Mixed-use is great, sure, but oughta be considered on a case-by-case basis; if it only serves to further dilute commercial & office attention away from a node like 7th & Pecan, just b/c every new project "should" include it, then I think it's a negative. Assuming Charlotte comes out of this recession healthy and growing sustainably again, I can foresee that node of Elizabeth becoming really great as far as pedestrian & car-friendly, I mean even more so than it has been on its own, maybe with some minor traffic engineering improvements. It could really one day be as great as Virginia-Highlands [in Atlanta].

[voyager12]

I admit to falling into the " mixed used is always good" mindset at times. If this project was proposed further out on Monroe which is a lost cause of sprawl that would be more fitting.

7th going through Elizabeth does have a good growing walkable retail vibe and it's a shame this project will not add to this connectivity.

[Spartan]

A small convenience store at Bascom would not detract from the 7th/Pecan area. It would more than likely improve the neighborhood and encourage more pedestrian activity. Otherwise, this is density for density's sake. Sounds to me like Elizabeth/Chantilly shot themselves in the foot, so to speak. Now that a developer is doing what the neighborhood asked, it's not good enough. Hmm.

[UrbanGossip]

There is no such thing as "density for densities sake". Density costs money to build, so obviously it has to be traced back to the price that was paid to consolidate the property. A proforma would tell them what density they have to get to make their money back in 5-10-15-20 etc years (whatever their goal is).

That being said, I am sure they have a "pull out" density that they have to get or else they dump the land and the neighborhood gets to keep what they have now. I am sure that number is not 400 units, but less. It is the game that the developer and neighborhood must play now that will determine the final number. I just hope they can make it happen (both sides) because that end of seventh street needs this; maybe not 400 units, but something like this. It will never be new or renovated single family homes because the value of the land is too much now after consolidation, so anyone holding on to that pipe dream should get over it. It will either be exactly what it is, or density.

As far as retail, I think it is succesful with or without it, but would prefer it without. Spreading retail up and down a street is the problem with roads like this. It is a microcosim of the suburban sprawl we all hate. It is why roads like independance and Monroe are so miserable; signage everywhere, commercial curb-cuts every 20 feet. Elizabeth has a great thing going with its commercial core at pecan, and should encorage that rather than spread it all up and down 7th. Just think if Monroe had been done this way all along, with dense commercial cores every 5 miles or so, and residential in between. Would be much better in my opinion.

[SCLA]

.....As far as retail, I think it is succesful with or without it, but would prefer it without. Spreading retail up and down a street is the problem with roads like this. It is a microcosim of the suburban sprawl we all hate. It is why roads like independance and Monroe are so miserable; signage everywhere, commercial curb-cuts every 20 feet. Elizabeth has a great thing going with its commercial core at pecan, and should encorage that rather than spread it all up and down 7th. Just think if Monroe had been done this way all along, with dense commercial cores every 5 miles or so, and residential in between. Would be much better in my opinion.

I absolutely agree; your analogies to other roads in town (Independence, Monroe, etc.) should make it obvious how allowing retail to spread out, even in the noble attempt to create that New Urbanist mix of residential & retail, can really ruin an area if all the implications aren't thought through fully. I'm not an urban planner, but I think relying on that basic premise of nodes & passages, where to cluster things and where to not, can be an invaluable philosophy to design from.

[Spartan]

If you think about retail in terms of a suburban design then I agree.

If you think about urban retail then I disagree. Look at Gateway Village as an example. There are two convince stores there and they contribute to the urban environment without creating suburban style curb cuts or uglying up the place. They have on-street parking but rely mostly on pedestrian traffic, not vehicular traffic. The more legitimate argument is over whether or not the density being proposed and the existing residential area could support another convenience store. Perhaps the businesses located at 7th/Pecan are enough for the neighborhood.

[UrbanGossip]

Well, that is very true. I agree that a distinction needs to be drawn between urban and suburban retail models. And thats why I say that the developement as a whole would be succesfull either way because this would be based on an urban model.

But I still don't think that it is neccessary, and really I don't think that it is appropriate. The center at pecan is within walking distance to every point in the neighborhood, so I don't see the need to denude that core by putting some competing retail 1 1/2 miles down the street.

I would much rather see us encourage that core, than strong-arm some developer into putting retail in a place that it will struggle to survive.

In my opinion the only real issue and potential sticking point is the density and the way the building "feels" as it addresses seventh street.

[voyager12]

To me, it seems like the Pecan&7th district became ped friendly almost in spite of itself, rather organically. I assume the plans to demo the P Stone and neighboring businesses to put in condos is on hiatus. Hopefully, when it restarts the midscale atmosphere will be maintained instead of having massive condo blocks looming over the sidewalk.

[tozmervo]

The culinary school looks to me, in a word, ghastly. Aesthetics aside (it looks like a generic bank building, not a school for culinary arts), it's like a poster child for how to not site a building. They evidentally decided that having a super-formal front (facing south) meant making the other three sides all equally unimportant. The walls along Kings and 7th are about as exciting as the substation's walls. I can't stand how much potential was missed here.

[atlrvr]

My wife has become annoyed with me, because every time we drive down 7th I rhetorically ask what they were thinking not putting a major entrance facing 7th to the building.

[Norm2]

They probably put the entrance facing south since that is most likely the direction that students would first get to the building from having to walk there from the school's parking decks. But who knows.

[dubone]

After the article this weekend, I have gone to support to Elizabeth Creamery and I noticed that the streetscape project only installed 5 foot sidewalks in the Elizabeth Ave section, while the rest appears to be a large grass planting area. I am baffled by this choice as it seems at odds with the whole purpose of the streetscape project and the standards the city has for 'main street' projects. There will barely be enough room for a couple people to walk together, let alone any room for al fresca dining or much else.

I would venture to say it is just a temporary situation during construction, but they have put out hay for the grass to grow. I am more than just a little horrified, as it basically means the street has a less urban streetscape than before they even started!

[Spartan]

They are 6 ft sidewalks. It doesn't change anything though, because they are still too narrow for what is supposed to be a pedestrian oriented urban area. I went to have lunch at the Nothing But Noodles yesterday and the sidewalks are already too small for the modest crowds of people. Just imagine when all of this great high density stuff moves in...