Elizabeth Projects (7th St, Elizabeth Ave, etc)

[dubone]

These sidewalks are concrete... surely an extra 4 feet does not cost that much. There is significant amount of grassy area and it is just unnecessary.

[voyager12]

^ Bummer, the execution of some of the city plans around here sure do a great job of not acknowledging that we are a city. Guess I will still have to drive to Birkdale and walk around to pretend I am in a city

[New Name]

^ Bummer, the execution of some of the city plans around here sure do a great job of not acknowledging that we are a city. Guess I will still have to drive to Birkdale and walk around to pretend I am in a city

Well said. Your sentiments are mine exactly. Why do Charlotte's planners continually try to "un-urbanize" parts of the city? Is it because the population models show that more people live in the suburbs? Could they be narrow minded enough to think that if you turn the city into the suburbs, maybe suburban people will come to the city? Beautification is one thing. Urban places can be very beautiful - and that does not require 8' grass suburban mini-lawn planting strips to happen. Charlotte already has enough planting strips to maintain - they grow to be 3 feet tall, and get mowed twice a year. So for about 4 weeks out of the year, they look nice and well manicured. The other 48 weeks... ridiculous.

And since I'm allowing myself a rant - when will we stop building pseudo-cities like Birkdale in the suburbs? The time, money and resources spent destroying natural land should go into mitigating the land that we have already claimed in our cities. If a small portion of the funding pool that is diverted to new greenfield development in the suburbs was redirected toward the urban area, Elizabeth Avenue would already be finished. This is off topic. I'll stop.

Sorry about the rant. I totally support Elizabeth Ave and most of its infrastructure improvements. Aside from the suburban planting strips, I am glad that we are rehabilitating an urban corridor.

[voyager12]

Speaking of the overall project...anyone heard news lately? With the economic doldrums I don't expect much but I am trying to stay optimistic. So many proposals have come and gone: movie theatre, condos, apts, supermarkets, what now?

[dubone]

Looks like Elizabeth Ave reopens to traffic today. Hopefully that will go a long way to restoring patrons to the businesses along there. It doesn't matter how wide the sidewalks are if the businesses can't survive.

http://www.charlotteobserver.com/breaking/story/900468.html

Overall, though, I look back to my expectations, and this whole area is a dismal failure. The streetscape project is neither that attractive nor a proper reflection of urban design standards with the large grass areas and narrow sidewalks. The Whole Foods grocery store has abandoned the area. The movie theater seems unlikely now that the Epicenter 5 has opened. They have torn down a 1920s building but replaced it with nothing. The streetcar project has not only been pushed out far into the future but seems to be abandoned by CATS and only possible if the city itself builds it. This is just a huge disappointment. Even the residential projects seem to be on indefinite hold.

[Bikeguy]

Looks like Elizabeth Ave reopens to traffic today. Hopefully that will go a long way to restoring patrons to the businesses along there. It doesn't matter how wide the sidewalks are if the businesses can't survive.

http://www.charlotteobserver.com/breaking/story/900468.html

Overall, though, I look back to my expectations, and this whole area is a dismal failure. The streetscape project is neither that attractive nor a proper reflection of urban design standards with the large grass areas and narrow sidewalks. The Whole Foods grocery store has abandoned the area. The movie theater seems unlikely now that the Epicenter 5 has opened. They have torn down a 1920s building but replaced it with nothing. The streetcar project has not only been pushed out far into the future but seems to be abandoned by CATS and only possible if the city itself builds it. This is just a huge disappointment. Even the residential projects seem to be on indefinite hold.

...and where are the friggin bike lanes..????

[Seabreeze]

Yeah, they really should have thought this job through better... The time line on the project was ridiculous, they should have began laying the tracks closer to uptown first and completed this phase at a later date. Talk about jumping the gun, why lay tracks there before the rest of the line started construction?! I'm assuming this project was privately funded. If not, it would make much more sense to have the tracks installed from the government district to uptown first.

[orulz]

Seems to me they didn't get it wrong everywhere - looks good through CPCC. From this site (click to expand):

Wonder why they didn't extend that treatment from end to end?

[New Name]

Yeah, they really should have thought this job through better... The time line on the project was ridiculous, they should have began laying the tracks closer to uptown first and completed this phase at a later date. Talk about jumping the gun, why lay tracks there before the rest of the line started construction?! I'm assuming this project was privately funded. If not, it would make much more sense to have the tracks installed from the government district to uptown first.

This segment was a public/private funded project. If the Government District had called for an upfit of their streetscape, maybe this would have happened there too (although really that would end up being a public/public project).

But, judging by the HORRENDOUS condition of Trade Street between the newly resurfaced Davidson and Tryon (mostly by the arena and Epicentre), they've got some work ahead of them to fix that road. I hope they look at laying more tracks at that time.

[New Name]

Oh and really, I think everyone is nit picking too much with this thing.

Stuff they did well:

-Bury the utilities!!

-Use light colored pavements and surfaces

-Find on-street parking in a very tight ROW

-Define a uniform building set-back that is much better than before

-Built a SPECULATIVE multimodal street! WOW! This is a precedent for smart planning!

Edited August 21, 2009 by The Escapists

[uptownliving]

Seems to me they didn't get it wrong everywhere - looks good through CPCC. From this site (click to expand):

Wonder why they didn't extend that treatment from end to end?

I don't have any inside info but I would think Grubb would be the reason. They had a big say on how their section of Elizabeth would look....I think if they filled in the sidewalk where the on-street parking is it would be fine....and I suspect after Grubb starts getting complaints about muddy shoes and high heels...they will do just that.

[ontap]

Yeah, they really should have thought this job through better... The time line on the project was ridiculous, they should have began laying the tracks closer to uptown first and completed this phase at a later date. Talk about jumping the gun, why lay tracks there before the rest of the line started construction?! I'm assuming this project was privately funded. If not, it would make much more sense to have the tracks installed from the government district to uptown first.

We need to remember that this wasn't a transit or urbanization project. The tracks were installed because it was convenient and promoted as less disruptive to the local businesses. This was a water/sewer & telecommunications project. It's up to Grubb to urbanize the streetscape.

[cha]

So how does it work with cars as well as a train? I thought Street Cars worked with them in the middle and the roads on either side. Where will you drive when there is a train?

[dubone]

In depth discussion of the street car plans should go in the streetcar topic, but as a quick answer to a quick question, streetcars can be designed with their own lanes or to operate in mixed traffic. In this case, it is mixed traffic as this is not a busy corridor. The streetcar is just like a bus with cars in front and behind it in the lane.

As for the streetscape and the project overall, I will pull back a tiny bit as I went to NoFo and Elizabeth Creamery last night and the people were out this time. NoFo was 3/4 full in both the restaurant section and the bar sections (although I didn't love walking into a lot of smoke which was cognitive dissonance at a place like that with frou frou decor). Elizabeth Creamery had a decent number of people in it. And as I walked to Charlottetowne and back with my ice cream, there were a lot of people out and about and big group at SKNetCafe.

Interestingly, they did do curb to building sidewalks in front of SKNetCafe and Cuisine Malaya. I guess I can understand the 6' sidewalk in front of the dead areas with no buildings, but to have that on the relatively small stretch from Carpe Diem to the briefly opened Starbucks is beyond me. Like Uptownliving said, people may complain (and the businesses too) about the muddy shoes because there is no way grass will survive with so many people cutting across or needing to walk onto the grass when another group is coming the opposite direction on the sidewalk.

I think also that is correct that Grubb probably funded the sidewalk and decided to go cheap because the project has been such a failure.

[Seabreeze]

We need to remember that this wasn't a transit or urbanization project. The tracks were installed because it was convenient and promoted as less disruptive to the local businesses. This was a water/sewer & telecommunications project. It's up to Grubb to urbanize the streetscape.

Thanks for clearing that up, makes a lot more sense now. And now that everyone mentions it, it does look a lot nicer now that the utilities are buried.

Now if someone would just consider opening a late night diner to replace Athens on this stretch, I would probably visit more often!

[atlrvr]

The sidewalks look like crap. The fact that there is a wider planting strip than sidewalk in a "strolling" area is ridiculous. I commented on this in the South End thread regarding how bad Circle was in this regard and didn't garner a lot of support for urban sidewalks there, but certainly Elizabeth has to be a prime example of the suburbanization of the city.

On a positive note, there is considerable more vehicle and foot traffic at all the places along Elizabeth both last night and this evening.

[voyager12]

We urban elitists on this rarified site may find it wanting but the majority of Charlotteans don't care or think it's looks perfect.

To me the whole streetscape just has a sad air. It came across as pure facade, almost a stage that could be picked up and moved. I got this reaction because there really is nothing to it, as the redevelopment is stalled. There's no "there there" to back up the remodel. The current small strip of restaurants is great but it all just pales in comparison to the original plan.

I am going to Charleston next month, and am going to come back with another serious case of urban envy

Edited August 23, 2009 by voyager12

[Spartan]

...and where are the friggin bike lanes..????

Per the USDG, bike lanes are not needed on Elizabeth, since it functions as a "main street" and will be calmed by the mixture of traffic and land uses in the area.

I am going to Charleston next month, and am going to come back with another serious case of urban envy

Ironically, Charleston has relatively narrow sidewalks all over. They just have the land uses and density (and tourists) to support what they have going on.

[Miesian Corners]

The sidewalks look like crap. The fact that there is a wider planting strip than sidewalk in a "strolling" area is ridiculous. I commented on this in the South End thread regarding how bad Circle was in this regard and didn't garner a lot of support for urban sidewalks there, but certainly Elizabeth has to be a prime example of the suburbanization of the city.

On a positive note, there is considerable more vehicle and foot traffic at all the places along Elizabeth both last night and this evening.

I have to agree with you. After the disaster of sidewalks in Gateway Village (ridiculous planting strips uptown), you'd have thought that the city would have learned from its mistakes. I drove up Elizabeth last night and was supremely disappointed. I understand and support streetlighting, but my God, it might as well be a tanning bed! There are fewer streetlights per block on Tryon than there are on Elizabeth. The visual clutter of them is almost as bad as having power lines strewn up the avenue.

[dubone]

My explanation to myself on the streetlights are that they are properly spaced to support the catenary wires for the streetcar. But the amount of lighting is quite intriguing in its excess.

This as a stroll district with shops and planned density makes these sidewalks worse than at Circle, where there is no retail (which is a problem, of course). It is already crowded on the sidewalks in Elizabeth Ave, and they just finished building it, and the retail is struggling compared to the levels they want and need.

[InitialD]

I have to agree with you. After the disaster of sidewalks in Gateway Village (ridiculous planting strips uptown), you'd have thought that the city would have learned from its mistakes. I drove up Elizabeth last night and was supremely disappointed. I understand and support streetlighting, but my God, it might as well be a tanning bed! There are fewer streetlights per block on Tryon than there are on Elizabeth. The visual clutter of them is almost as bad as having power lines strewn up the avenue.

I'm just curious why the planting strips are a bad idea uptown. It would seem they would function to provide more plants/green space and also work as a traffic calming device. But that's just a guess at their reasoning for them.

[Windsurfer]

I'm just curious why the planting strips are a bad idea uptown. It would seem they would function to provide more plants/green space and also work as a traffic calming device. But that's just a guess at their reasoning for them.

There's no way to go around the streetcars is there, since the planter close off the right lane. (?) As the streetcars slowly go up and down the street and stop, cars are going to back up behind them.

[Eastman]

There's no way to go around the streetcars is there, since the planter close off the right lane. (?) As the streetcars slowly go up and down the street and stop, cars are going to back up behind them.

It will not be much different than where single lanes each way have bus routes. They did this on West Morehead and it works better than I thought it would.

[InitialD]

There's no way to go around the streetcars is there, since the planter close off the right lane. (?) As the streetcars slowly go up and down the street and stop, cars are going to back up behind them.

If there are 4 lanes, then the streetcars will have a shared lane, and cars will have their own lane. Though, this means no more on the street parking. I'm just interested in the design pros/cons of the planters.

[orulz]

Yeah - it's no big deal if a few cars wind up waiting a bit for streetcars. That's exactly what happens with buses on two lane roads. Besides, the streetcar might be carrying 50 or more people, whereas each car will be carrying 1. Making 10 cars = 10 people wait a minute for 50+ people on the streetcar doesn't bother me.