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Elizabeth Projects (7th St, Elizabeth Ave, etc)


JunktionFET

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I think Uptown, Elizabeth Ave, and SouthEnd should be looking at less "planting strips" and more "amenity zones." Hardscapes are appropriate in the places where we invision an dense urban environment, and there's no reason not to have tree wells and vegetation in containers. The extra concrete allows for more space for restaurant tables, clothing racks, benches, etc. In places where we don't expect that type of land use to exist, then planting strips are cool.

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I think Uptown, Elizabeth Ave, and SouthEnd should be looking at less "planting strips" and more "amenity zones." Hardscapes are appropriate in the places where we invision an dense urban environment, and there's no reason not to have tree wells and vegetation in containers. The extra concrete allows for more space for restaurant tables, clothing racks, benches, etc. In places where we don't expect that type of land use to exist, then planting strips are cool.

I agree about more amenity zones than planting strips.

The other problem I have with planting strips are that they are a hazard for bicycling. I rode up Elizabeth Sunday when there was zero traffic and pedestrians. I still had to watch for the curbs sticking out. They are downright treacherous if your attention drifts and your steering takes you over to one side too far. At least a straight curb runs parellel to the street instead of creating a 90 degree impediment.

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You're supposed to take the lane and ride in mixed traffic on that portion of Elizabeth. If you're in between the tracks you should be fine. Of course, watch to make sure your wheel doesn't get caught in the rail.

I would say that's a VERY bad idea. Instead, ride to the right of the rails. Not sure how wide the gap is for the streetcar wheel flanges (to the inside of each rail), but I'd bet that it's wide enough to swallow a bicycle tire. to Riding between the rails, there's basically no way to get out from between them without getting caught. Crossing rails at a slight angle is certain to result in a wreck. I speak from experience because I made that mistake while I lived in Hiroshima which has streetcars all over the place.

In my experience, crossing the rails at anywhere between a 45 and 90 degree angle should be safe when it's dry; a 60 to 90 degree angle is necessary when it's raining. Your wheel doesn't even have to get caught when it's wet: the rail is extremely slippery. Regardless, It's difficult or impossible to do any of this, dry or wet, at speed when you're riding in the 4 foot strip between the rails.

If you ride to the right, that way you can make a right turn without having to risk death or serious injury. As for a left turn, I would say a "box left" is the only safe option.

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I'll have to get out there and play around with it. It sounds like there isn't much space to the right of the rails. I think it would be frustrating to deal with watching out for the rails, curb extensions and car doors. Maybe I won't bike on Elizabeth and just take my changes on 4th/7th St.

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Yes. Between Charlottetowne and Hawthorne there are no bike lanes. That portion of Elizabeth Ave is classified as a "main street" under the USDG, so the built environment and traffic speeds should be conducive to riding in mixed traffic. It's like 36th Street in Noda (except with a streetcar).

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Yes. Between Charlottetowne and Hawthorne there are no bike lanes. That portion of Elizabeth Ave is classified as a "main street" under the USDG, so the built environment and traffic speeds should be conducive to riding in mixed traffic. It's like 36th Street in Noda (except with a streetcar).

Do you mean like North Davidson in NoDa, because 36th has a bike lane?

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So they used Main Street guidelines to skip the bike lanes but not to make sidewalks wider than 6'? Bizarre.

There was a lot of noise made by city council that CDOT skipped bike lanes on the ultra short Pearl Park Way, yet in this case, it is much longer and there is a case where it is difficult to ride your bike in a lane with tracks in it.

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Just as you wouldn't expect through-traffic motorists to drive mixed in with streetcars on Elizabeth unless their destination is in the immediate area, the same can be said for bicyclists. There are also more parallel routes for bicyclists east of Charlottetowne than west.

Plus, there wasn't enough right-of-way (the facade of restaurant row is a fixed edge) for both on-street parking AND bicycle lanes. Of course, if the sidewalks were going to be so narrow (which they shouldn't have been), you could argue there is enough room for both, but obviously the sidewalks should just be wider, meaning still not enough room between the building fronts and centerline of the street for both bike lanes and parking.

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Just as you wouldn't expect through-traffic motorists to drive mixed in with streetcars on Elizabeth unless their destination is in the immediate area, the same can be said for bicyclists. There are also more parallel routes for bicyclists east of Charlottetowne than west.

Unless you ride on the sidewalks, you take your life in your hands when you travel by bike on the "parallel routes" like 3rd/4th Street. The only other one I can think of would be 7th and that's just as scary. I suppose you could meander through the park.

I'm going to miss Jimmy's resturant. Pretty soon CPCC's campus is going to look like CMC.

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The best parallel to Elizabeth between Charlottetowne and Hawthorne is 5th. I've riden 5th myself during construction (and even 7th, which I agree is scary, except that the rarely used center reversible lane does allow kinder motorists to safely pass you).

This section of Elizabeth is similar to Thomas between Central and Commonwealth. You can still bike it without any lanes, since the single-lane traffic is moving slower. But if you are just riding through the area (not directly to or from the business district), you're more likely to be on another street.

Granted, north of Central, Thomas does serve as a parallel to Plaza (though outside of rush hour, motorists can use the extra lane to pass you). However, the light at Central takes so long to cross (indeed hard to actuate unless a ped has pushed a button or a motor vehicle is detected) and that block south of Central so busy with jaywalkers, opening parked car doors, and more, that I just avoid riding that block of Thomas unless it's my actual destination. So I ride Pecan or Plaza south of Central instead of Thomas, just as I ride Hamorton and Commonwealth as parallels to Central, albeit for different reasons (busy main street vs. constrained thoroughfare).

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Ok, so just to be clear, you guys are advocating the termination of the city policy to add bike lanes to all major street renovations as long as you can point out a low volume street nearby? If not, then the only reason to not have bike lanes is in areas where the new streets are designed to be low speed streets. But if this is supposed to be a low speed street that can go the same speed as a bicyclist can go, then why do we plan a major transit corridor down it?

This street design gets more and more odd the more you dig.

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Ok, so just to be clear, you guys are advocating the termination of the city policy to add bike lanes to all major street renovations as long as you can point out a low volume street nearby? If not, then the only reason to not have bike lanes is in areas where the new streets are designed to be low speed streets. But if this is supposed to be a low speed street that can go the same speed as a bicyclist can go, then why do we plan a major transit corridor down it?

This street design gets more and more odd the more you dig.

I am quite sure that similar conversations are also taking place within CDOT.. Ken Tippett, who is the City's Bicycle Coordinator, bikes to work every day, so he has first hand knowledge of the hazards that cyclists face every day..

These rails as they are placed on this new section of Elizabeth are a death warrent waiting to happen. I personally know several people ( my wife for one) who have fallen on South Blvd. where the Blue Line crosses diagonally. This is extremely dangerous particularly if drivers who are closely following are not paying cl;ose attention. I see the same thing happening on Elizabeth... only in combos.

There is absolutely insufficient room on the outside of these rails for safe cycling...

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How do people bike in Amsterdam and The Hague, cities with both enormous volumes of bikers and streetcar tracks? Ok, the easy answer is there are pretty much bike "roads" everywhere, but still there has to be a number of crossings, even at less than 90 degrees.

As far as the street. It is way too narrow. I've been driving it almost every day and dislike it more and more. I would be happier if they got rid of on street parking on the south side of the street, and added bike lanes. Inevitably some lazy person is going to park there Hummer H2 too far from the curb and a streetcar isn't going to be able to get buy.....it is REALLY tight in front of Visulite.

I want to go off on the sidewalks widths again, but I better not.

I do want to add a positive. Fresh Market has definitely signed a lease commitment for where Whole Foods was going to go and Grubb still plans on building. Financing is just impossible at the moment. Best case is a start date of late 2010, and that will likely NOT include the residential tower, though the project is designed so that the tower can be added in the future as demand improves.

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The Fresh Market news is definitely encouraging. They have good if pricey food. The Strawberry Hill store is a nightmare of sensory overload. Can't see anything because there is so much to see! I don't mourn the closing of the Starbucks on the corner. With the nearby 7th St locale there was no need for it. Perhaps an indie can replace it.

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That is a relief about Fresh Market. I think they will be good for the area and gives me hope again.

I don't know, I just had such high hopes for the streetscape and not only are the aesthetics a bit off with the over use of concrete, but the functionality is off for the bicyclists and pedestrians that are intended to drive the area's success. Of course, one benefit is that it won't be too hard to fill in the planting strip with concrete later when it finally does fill up. Perhaps this was the plan all along, I don't know.

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We went to NOFO for dinner last night. They had a good crowd. I hope all the businesses start rebounding. And it was very nice to see the foot traffic along the street. The lights though....beyond overkill. Just ridiculous and wasteful. The articficial overillumination just looks weird too.

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These rails as they are placed on this new section of Elizabeth are a death warrent waiting to happen. I personally know several people ( my wife for one) who have fallen on South Blvd. where the Blue Line crosses diagonally. This is extremely dangerous particularly if drivers who are closely following are not paying cl;ose attention. I see the same thing happening on Elizabeth... only in combos.

There is absolutely insufficient room on the outside of these rails for safe cycling...

I took a quick detour through there (by car), and I have to agree with you. Between Charlottetowne and Hawthorne, Elizabeth Ave is frighteningly unsafe for bicycles. If I had to bike that stretch, I would use the sidewalk, no question.

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After reading the posts regarding the "improvements" made on Elizabeth Avenue between Charlottetowne and Hawthorne, I took a trip down said boulevard last evening. It appears to me that this stretch of road will be proven to be unsafe to adults, children, cars, trolleys, cats, dogs, bicycles, birds, aliens, insects and eventually, the politicians and developers who approved it.

Edited by maratletter
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Great news about Fresh Market... Where exactly is it going? I go to the one way down off Providence and this would be a much more convenient location!

Corner of Eliz and Hawthorne, under the condo/apt tower, where the BP station used to be.

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I took my nephews from out of town to Elizabeth Creamery today and got a good chuckle when we walked back to the car parallel parked on Elizabeth my 10 y/o nephew said: "Why are they planting so much grass...they should extend the sidewalk out to the street"

If a 10 y/o who lives in the suburbs of another city gets it...why don't the developers and city get it?

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