Elizabeth Projects (7th St, Elizabeth Ave, etc)

[ClassicColtrane]

40 minutes ago, TCLT said:

This is a useless post. What is the point in posting a screenshot of the headline of an article and not even link to the article. It’s bad enough when a paywalled article link is posted without copying or summarizing it but this is some next level brain dead content.

Do ya'll talk to people like this in person? For this to be an urbanist forum, there's a lot of keyboard warriors who talk tough on here. Relax and use Google. It would've taken less time than it took to write out that post.

[turbocraig]

Well I knew this was coming but it still hurts to see this beautiful house where Fuse Salon was leveled.  So sad.  Wish it had been moved somewhere, if that was even possible.  

[JRCLT]

Do ya'll talk to people like this in person? For this to be an urbanist forum, there's a lot of keyboard warriors who talk tough on here. Relax and use Google. It would've taken less time than it took to write out that post.

I will admit…at that point forget the screenshot and just post a link lol. <—( I would say that say that in person. Also: there’s no sass or snark, I promise!).

[turbocraig]

Rumblings of another attempt to bring Historic District status to Elizabeth.   Article says there’s an ECA meeting tonight about it.  Article doesn’t reveal much actual news, just that debate is swirling again and the usual arguments for and against by residents.  There was a vote back when I lived in Elizabeth in the very late 90’s that failed, in addition to a few more since then, I believe.  There’s also a link to a video of a 2hr zoom meeting if anyone is dealing with insomnia.  
 

https://www.charlotteobserver.com/news/business/development/article273122760.html

[videtur quam contuor]

This post is purely by my memory and selective as it may be in the proportion and substance of the events:

The Dilworth Historic District was mooted in the late 70's. the architectural analysis was done in 1978 and can be found here, among other locations:

https://digital.ncdcr.gov/digital/collection/p16062coll47/id/10214/

There was resistance, of course, especially from those in the curvilinear area such as Berkely, Mount Vernon, Romany  and the like. Those owners had the more expensive, substantial homes. In 1980 Murray Whisnant, a local architect, owned the two lots at 430 Park Avenue across from Dilworth School. He proposed and then built seven condominiums there in a ski chalet/moderne (my term) style. It was at this point that every owner realized that such development could occur next to them. This accelerated the approval  though there were certainly other factors present. Such decisions often turn on a specific event that crystallizes the issues at play.

The site below shows Murray in the interior of his condominium home, the only one of the seven in his project that faces park Avenue directly.

https://www.ncmodernist.org/whisnant.htm

 

(I have thought several times over the years that a focussed individual or group could purchase the condominiums and build 2-3 homes today on the property and perhaps make the financial arrangement work. Similar to how Murray did when he used one unit as his home.)

Edited March 17, 2023 by tarhoosier

[NYtoCLT]

The Elizabeth Community Association president wrote an article in the Quarterly Newsletter very clearly in opposition to historic district status (you can get to the newsletter here:  https://elizabethcommunity.com/).  It is a good article that clearly highlights the red flags and doesn't pull punches.  This caused a lot of drama because the Historic Elizabeth Neighborhood Foundation (separate and very much not part of the ECA) wanted support from the ECA or in the very least not be in opposition.  The president (and a few other board members) being against historic district designation comes close to killing the HENF's efforts.  They need 51% of homeowners to sign a petition in support and then would need city council approval.  Without the ECA, both of those feel extremely unlikely. 

The HENF meeting last night (I didn't attend but a friend did and gave updates) basically outlined that they need 51% and my friend (who supports HENF, full disclosure, I very much do not) said they wouldn't have been able to get 51% of the people attending their own event to sign off on a historic district.  The meeting was apparently civil but started to get heated at the end when the President of the ECA said he was there on behalf of the community and one person yelled "you're here on behalf of yourself" and someone else walked out.  

This has been brewing for a while.  Almost every newsletter has some article about historic district designation (for and/or against).  There is a particularly great article in opposition to it in the Winter 2019 issue (in my very humble opinion).

[teeg]

I appreciate the update.  It's surprising that the petition requirement is only 51%.  That seems like a very low bar.  

[NYtoCLT]

2 hours ago, teeg said:

I appreciate the update.  It's surprising that the petition requirement is only 51%.  That seems like a very low bar.  

I agree.  Considering how much it impacts people, I would be really upset if half my neighbors had the ability to force my property into being a historic district.  That said, I think the 51% is just to get the issue before city council.  So City Council would then need to approve it.

Edited March 18, 2023 by NYtoCLT

[atlrvr]

I used to live in a bungalow on 8th St.  Now I live in Dilworth within the Historic District.  Elizabeth was/is very inclusionary.  Many things that neighbors did to be inclusionary would require HDC approval, and many would be denied.  In Dilworth, neighbors actively patrol looking for infractions.  There is a real resistance to any evolution.

My opinion, after experiencing both, is a historic district would take away the free-spirit vibe of the neighborhood.  One "vigilant" neighbor could change everything.

If it goes in front of the council, with it's current make-up, it will definitely pass.  The idea of additional governmental control is too compelling to pass up.  But HDC is far from a progressive institution, it's regressive in practice.   The only chance is to remind council how this crushes affordability.

Ask the 30+ year  homeowner on Wilmore Dr who submitted for an port cochere above her front door.  It was hand sketched submittal.  The commission rudely dismissed her and told her she needed to hire an architect to submit professional elevations.  She asked how to hire an architect. 

[NYtoCLT]

1 hour ago, atlrvr said:

I used to live in a bungalow on 8th St.  Now I live in Dilworth within the Historic District.  Elizabeth was/is very inclusionary.  Many things that neighbors did to be inclusionary would require HDC approval, and many would be denied.  In Dilworth, neighbors actively patrol looking for infractions.  There is a real resistance to any evolution.

My opinion, after experiencing both, is a historic district would take away the free-spirit vibe of the neighborhood.  One "vigilant" neighbor could change everything.

If it goes in front of the council, with it's current make-up, it will definitely pass.  The idea of additional governmental control is too compelling to pass up.  But HDC is far from a progressive institution, it's regressive in practice.   The only chance is to remind council how this crushes affordability.

Ask the 30+ year  homeowner on Wilmore Dr who submitted for an port cochere above her front door.  It was hand sketched submittal.  The commission rudely dismissed her and told her she needed to hire an architect to submit professional elevations.  She asked how to hire an architect. 

I don't know about the dynamics of council but my hope is that if the ECA opposes it that will carry some weight with council.  Maybe not though.  If it does go before council I hope they do take into consideration how this will negatively impact affordability.  Braxton seems to be pretty YIMBY at this point and aware of the impact limiting supply has on price so hopefully he would help get the point across.

 

And there would DEFINITELY be some neighbors who actively look for infractions.  That was one of the points the ECA president raised.  If you read the articles in the Newsletter by the proponents of historic district designation, they basically say as much.  My hope is that since at this point the neighborhood has evolved where the old bungalows make up less than half of the neighborhood it won't be that popular.  It would be odd to be in one of the (many) new builds and support historic district designation.  

[Miesian Corners]

I'm torn on the benefits of HD status. As a person who once owned a home in Dilworth AND who sat on the DCDA board, I saw the benefits and shortcomings firsthand. My plan to add a small covered roof over the front door of my house was quickly shot down by HDC, even though nearly every five-over-four-with-a-door house from the late 1930s has one. Replacing old windows for energy-efficient ones was another fight, even though there would be no way to tell the new ones were replacements. I was told "Building materials must be ones  that would've been used in the period your house was built." My retort, that got laughter from others in the room seeking changes to their houses, but scowls from the HDC board was, "Gee, can you please tell me where I can find decent asbestos siding in Charlotte? I've looked everywhere and all I'm told is that it's illegal."

Our older neighborhoods need to be protected, but Charlotte's HDC borders on puritanism on acid. 
 

[steve_o]

On 3/18/2023 at 1:26 PM, NYtoCLT said:

And there would DEFINITELY be some neighbors who actively look for infractions.  That was one of the points the ECA president raised.  If you read the articles in the Newsletter by the proponents of historic district designation, they basically say as much.  My hope is that since at this point the neighborhood has evolved where the old bungalows make up less than half of the neighborhood it won't be that popular.  It would be odd to be in one of the (many) new builds and support historic district designation.  

Fully agree - as an owner of one of the new builds.  

[KJHburg]

My friend told me over in Dilworth one of his neighbors had an 7 month wait to find out about adding a gas light on his front porch.   That seems very unreasonable to me.  

[Norm2]

I'm a proponent of having important/architectural  significant buildings having historical status rather than giving historic status to an entire neighborhood. Historic neighborhood councils tend to just be overly jealous HOA's who want zero change and who will look for the smallest of infractions.

[jthomas]

It’s a shame to hear that the local historic district process doesn’t seem to be working well in Charlotte. I have had a lot of involvement with the HPC in Greensboro over the years. One point I stress is that if property owners want to ensure the survival of the neighborhood, they need to welcome folks who want to invest in the historic properties. Yes, it needs to be good, sensitive, and appropriate investment, but you can’t turn the neighborhood into a museum. People have to be able to live 21st century lives in their old homes. I think that by and large, we have a good balance here. Most people who buy in the historic districts do so precisely because of the character of the neighborhoods, and they want to do projects that enhance that character.

To address another point above, I do think there is a lot of value in protecting the neighborhood as a district, rather than just the individual buildings. In fact, I would argue that the neighborhood setting is almost more important than any individual architecture, save for a few standout examples. These 100-year-old neighborhoods are repositories of a type of small-scale, people-oriented urbanism that America has almost completely forgotten how to build. The street grids, small lots, sidewalks, and relatively de-emphasized automobile infrastructure are critical to preserve. They serve as a reminder that we can build cities in a different and better way than the status quo of the suburban experiment.

[Bat'leth]

4 hours ago, jthomas said:

It’s a shame to hear that the local historic district process doesn’t seem to be working well in Charlotte. I have had a lot of involvement with the HPC in Greensboro over the years. One point I stress is that if property owners want to ensure the survival of the neighborhood, they need to welcome folks who want to invest in the historic properties. Yes, it needs to be good, sensitive, and appropriate investment, but you can’t turn the neighborhood into a museum. People have to be able to live 21st century lives in their old homes. I think that by and large, we have a good balance here. Most people who buy in the historic districts do so precisely because of the character of the neighborhoods, and they want to do projects that enhance that character.

To address another point above, I do think there is a lot of value in protecting the neighborhood as a district, rather than just the individual buildings. In fact, I would argue that the neighborhood setting is almost more important than any individual architecture, save for a few standout examples. These 100-year-old neighborhoods are repositories of a type of small-scale, people-oriented urbanism that America has almost completely forgotten how to build. The street grids, small lots, sidewalks, and relatively de-emphasized automobile infrastructure are critical to preserve. They serve as a reminder that we can build cities in a different and better way than the status quo of the suburban experiment.

Well said, about protecting the neighborhood setting. Recently a neighborhood email went out about a house being built at Pecan Avenue & 9th St. The photo attached to it shows a 3 story blank wall crammed up against the  1 story house next to it.

[teeg]

1 hour ago, Bat'leth said:

Well said, about protecting the neighborhood setting. Recently a neighborhood email went out about a house being built at Pecan Avenue & 9th St. The photo attached to it shows a 3 story blank wall crammed up against the  1 story house next to it.

I'll go out on a limb and say that -- if it was in a city historic district -- elements of this would not have made it past the Charlotte HDC (they would spend an entire meeting on those windows).  But parts of it might.  Height, setbacks, and side yard requirements are all dictated by the underlying zoning, not so much whether it looks like it fits in with the neighborhood setting.  And even if those side yard requirements were not spelled out in the city ordinances, building right up to the property line is practically a historic feature of these old Charlotte neighborhoods.  If you look around on Polaris 3G you can find all sorts of examples of that in Elizabeth, Plaza Midwood, Dilworth (including the cute green house next door to that new tower on Pecan, if I am looking at it correctly).  

Edited March 20, 2023 by teeg
minor typo

[CLT2014]

RIP to the predecessor on the lot at 9th and Pecan. A sign of the times... the friendly front porch replaced by the private 3rd level balcony. 

[videtur quam contuor]

My view formed over decades and pre and post HDC in Dilworth is that the HDC is good at preventing the sort of construction  seen above and other McMansions and ski chalet moderne condos (as I named them). Such absolutely nonconforming structures are incompatible with the sense and structure of the neighborhood. 

As to existing structures then the HDC can be seen and felt as an impediment to improvements. These tensions are implicit in the HDC mission. HDC, in my experience, is most assertive to concerns of the neighbors of such structures and changes. I knew owners who contested plans for new structures that were incompatible with the rules and spirit of the HDC. They were the affected parties. As with all civic life, the first layer of responsibility is the citizen himself. There is no doubt in m mind that the designation prevented the loss of fabric of the neighborhood. It was a different neighborhood then than Elizabeth is now. 

I wonder if @KJHburg or other agent has had an experience where a buyer was reluctant, resistant, or encouraged to invest in such a neighborhood when the HD designation must be declared?

[KJHburg]

15 minutes ago, tarhoosier said:

My view formed over decades and pre and post HDC in Dilworth is that the HDC is good at preventing the sort of construction  seen above and other McMansions and ski chalet moderne condos (as I named them). Such absolutely nonconforming structures are incompatible with the sense and structure of the neighborhood. 

As to existing structures then the HDC can be seen and felt as an impediment to improvements. These tensions are implicit in the HDC mission. HDC, in my experience, is most assertive to concerns of the neighbors of such structures and changes. I knew owners who contested plans for new structures that were incompatible with the rules and spirit of the HDC. They were the affected parties. As with all civic life, the first layer of responsibility is the citizen himself. There is no doubt in m mind that the designation prevented the loss of fabric of the neighborhood. It was a different neighborhood then than Elizabeth is now. 

I wonder if @KJHburg or other agent has had an experience where a buyer was reluctant, resistant, or encouraged to invest in such a neighborhood when the HD designation must be declared?

I have heard it both ways some like being in a Historic district and others want no part of it.  Same with HOAs too some like their protections but don't want overreach and if a neighborhood has a reputation for a tough HOA some will look elsewhere.  

[Nathan2]

21 hours ago, Bat&#x27;leth said:

Well said, about protecting the neighborhood setting. Recently a neighborhood email went out about a house being built at Pecan Avenue & 9th St. The photo attached to it shows a 3 story blank wall crammed up against the  1 story house next to it.

I think the thing about this house that is worse than it not fitting in with the character and massing of similar structures is that this giant structure (you should see the side view from the street) is for one person/ family. Structures of this size could easily fit 2 to 3 units. You go down 8th and 9th street and there are large condo buildings that fit perfectly among single-family homes. I would be embarrassed owning this thing. These are probably the same people who complain about new apartment buildings being too large.  

[Bat'leth]

1 hour ago, Nathan2 said:

I think the thing about this house that is worse than it not fitting in with the character and massing of similar structures is that this giant structure (you should see the side view from the street) is for one person/ family. Structures of this size could easily fit 2 to 3 units. You go down 8th and 9th street and there are large condo buildings that fit perfectly among single-family homes. I would be embarrassed owning this thing. These are probably the same people who complain about new apartment buildings being too large.  

My understanding is that a local developer is building this as a spec house. I don't know if they have a buyer already

[NYtoCLT]

On 3/21/2023 at 10:31 AM, Nathan2 said:

I think the thing about this house that is worse than it not fitting in with the character and massing of similar structures is that this giant structure (you should see the side view from the street) is for one person/ family. Structures of this size could easily fit 2 to 3 units. You go down 8th and 9th street and there are large condo buildings that fit perfectly among single-family homes. I would be embarrassed owning this thing. These are probably the same people who complain about new apartment buildings being too large.  

I think this seems fine.  A lot of people (and families in particular) want larger homes. I left Elizabeth for Plaza-Belmont partially because I had a few kids and needed more space.

 

The larger house doesn't hurt the neighboring homes (even the house next door).  Contrasting styles/sizes makes an area interesting and I think it is likely that in 20 years people will love the juxtaposition.  

[AltNative]

Oh yea everyone will be clamoring for this interesting juxtaposition in just a few short decades!!

 

Whoever designed this should be embarrassed. These monstrosities are all over Belmont and they're ruining the the neighborhood. 

I support Elizabeth becoming a HD

 

 

lets play a game called "Fort Mill Tract Home or Historic Charlotte Neighborhood"

 

Round One:

any guesses??

[go_vertical]

What amazes me with so many of these new builds is how often 85% of a quaint front lawn will be paved over just to have a circular driveway like what is shown in the first picture of that last post.  That doesn't look appealing to me.  Really wish we would go back to having the driveway go beside the house to a garage in the backyard.  The actual house needs to be the focus from the street, not what you drive.