New Urbanism

[Antrell Williams]

The numbers I am citing were based on a Urban vs. Suburban/rural study. However I do agree that in many cases in sunbelt cities, people confuse suburbia with being "the city" aka "urban"

A girl I went to school with during a class discussion was confused because her whole life, she thought she had lived in the city. She grew up off of Perkins Road and assumed she lived in an urban area because she lived in the city limits. I had to explain to her that if it requires a car to run any errand, she lived in suburbia. She continued to be confused at first, but eventually caught on. I think its a problem many people have because they have never been exposed to true walkable urbanism and assume any area with lots of suburban development is therefore urban.

It's common, technically she lived in the city but still suburbia. Even the urban areas of Baton Rouge can require a car to run errands, comes from a lack of infrastructure investment and public transit.

Your last point is spot-on.

Edited June 12, 2012 by Antrell Williams

[cajun]

It's common, technically she lived in the city but still suburbia. Even the urban areas of Baton Rouge can require a car to run errands, comes from a lack of infrastructure investment and public transit.

That's a major flaw. Baton Rouge is overwhelmingly suburban in layout. Even the old blue collar areas in run down parts of north Baton Rouge were set up as suburban neighborhoods from the start.

If there were places in town with good public schools, affordable taxes, and good housing stock.....the middle class types would live there. I sort of consider Zachary and Central as just another part of Baton Rouge....that caters to middle income people.

Louisiana is a unique case because of the proliferation of private schools in conjunction with low average income. I think it may have helped keep the cities viable for longer. People here often just accept that public schools suck and are willing to pay private tuition....almost like another tax.

So many middle class people send their kids to private school in Louisiana even though they can barely afford it. Everywhere else, private schools are typically for the rich. Down there, very normal people have the burden of private school tuition.

Edited June 12, 2012 by cajun

[buckett5425]

Do you have a link to a stat that indicates that anywhere near 50% of families with kids live in an urban environment and they are doing, as you say, "just fine".

That wouldn't be debatable in any of the dozen cities that I've lived. Even the functional urban areas are priced out of the reach of most families. Those that are affordable have sky high incarceration rates, too much crime, horrible public schools, and obsolete infrastructure if they don't completely mimic a small town feel within a large city.

I saw the figures a few years ago. I could attempt to google for it.

But don't be so skeptical of urban families and sarcastically imply they aren't doing "just fine" based on your own experiences. Just to put things into perspective, for the first time in American History, suburbia now has more households living in poverty than urban centers. This figure however was very easy to search for, here is one article explaining the recent census data.

http://money.msn.com/family-money/poverty-has-a-new-address-suburbia-fiscaltimes.aspx

[itsjustme3]

Thats highly debatable. Most sunbelt cities offer next to nothing for families with children in urban areas. Keep in mind, 50% of American's still live in urban areas, meaning 50% of Americans are doing just fine raising families in cities.

lol. I can't wait to see your proof. I will LOL even harder if you refer to a blog.

[Antrell Williams]

That's a major flaw. Baton Rouge is overwhelmingly suburban in layout. Even the old blue collar areas in run down parts of north Baton Rouge were set up as suburban neighborhoods from the start.

If there were places in town with good public schools, affordable taxes, and good housing stock.....the middle class types would live there. I sort of consider Zachary and Central as just another part of Baton Rouge....that caters to middle income people.

Louisiana is a unique case because of the proliferation of private schools in conjunction with low average income. I think it may have helped keep the cities viable for longer. People here often just accept that public schools suck and are willing to pay private tuition....almost like another tax.

So many middle class people send their kids to private school in Louisiana even though they can barely afford it. Everywhere else, private schools are typically for the rich. Down there, very normal people have the burden of private school tuition.

Such as Scotlandville or Dixie?

There aren't many places like that because of the money leaving the city. When I say money I mean in the form of tax payers and private investment.

My mom paid for me to attend CLA on Perkins until we moved to Prairieville. Keep in mind we lived on Gardere.

[buckett5425]

lol. I can't wait to see your proof. I will LOL even harder if you refer to a blog.

Proof of what exactly? Its a commonly known fact that about 50 percent of Americans live in suburbia.

[cajun]

But don't be so skeptical of urban families and sarcastically imply they aren't doing "just fine" based on your own experiences.

I based my decision to live where I do on educational achievement statistics, crime statistics, and incarceration rates. All those stats did was support my experience- derived opinions. One only has to look up public school stats, crime stats, and demographic data for that. It's readily available on FBI.gov and citydata.com

After my research, I arrived at the conclusion that America's urban areas and inner cities foster stupidity, ignorance, crime, hatred, intolerance, and underachievement. In many parts of America, society's achievers are vastly outnumbered in urban centers.

I think it is common knowledge that some urban areas attract younger singles who value the entertainment and convenience of city living over a suburban lifestyle.

What isn't common knowledge is that most urban areas are great places to raise a family for most people. I don't agree with that assertion, which is one I believe you are making.

Can you provide a stat that disproves the prevailing thought process of people like me who make significant investments in a suburban municipality? I haven't seen any.

There are exceptions to everything....but by and large, the suburban areas appear to be the most cost effective choice for parents seeking a safe neighborhood with good public schools. That's an opinion based on stats available to me. It's especially relevant in southern or rust belt cities.

Edited June 12, 2012 by cajun

[Antrell Williams]

There are exceptions to everything....but by and large, the suburban areas appear to be the most cost effective choice for parents seeking a safe neighborhood with good public schools. That's an opinion based on stats available to me.

Not if you commute. Which is what majority of suburban dwellers do.

Edited June 12, 2012 by Antrell Williams

[cajun]

Not if you commute. Which is what majority of suburban dwellers do.

You'd have to commute in a city as well.....and pay for private school, a very expensive neighborhood with security, and likely higher property taxes to boot.

I did all the math on this before on my house in Atlanta, and compared 4 different options. It wasn't even close to competitive.

The saving grace of some urban areas are the provision of a unique environment or "sense of place". That's easier to find in an urban area and isn't easily quantified for comparison. Cities in south Louisiana would fare better than Atlanta in that area.

I live near Roswell, GA. It's adorable and unique in this argument and we found a suburban area that has a little more than the average bedroom community. Atlanta is largely a hodgepodge of characterless development, so this only played in the suburb's favor. Baton Rouge and New Orleans are more unique....and lack decent quality suburbs (other than Old Metry', the older parts of the north shore, and St Fransisville/New Roads). This is not easily measured by statistics.

Edited June 12, 2012 by cajun

[Antrell Williams]

You don't have to deal with near stop and go traffic on your morning and evening commutes, you don't need private schools,or an expensive neighborhood.

[cajun]

You don't have to deal with near stop and go traffic on your morning and evening commutes, you don't need private schools,or an expensive neighborhood.

Right...because in America's urban centers, traffic doesn't exist, the public schools don't suck, and safe housing is cheap.

If that were half true, the suburbs wouldn't be as popular as they are.

[Antrell Williams]

Right...because in America's urban centers, traffic doesn't exist, the public schools don't suck, and safe housing is cheap.

If that were half true, the suburbs wouldn't be as popular as they are.

Every city in America isn't Baton Rouge. I could find that just over in Lafayette, or really easily over in Houston.

It is half true, suburbs are popular when cities are left like Baton Rouge was.

[cajun]

Every city in America isn't Baton Rouge. I could find that just over in Lafayette, or really easily over in Houston.

It is half true, suburbs are popular when cities are left like Baton Rouge was.

Urban public schools generally suck- especially in the south and rust belt. Your evidence to the contrary is anecdotal and wrong.

I've lived in Houston for years. It is the poster child for sprawl.

I'm not attacking urban living, but if we can't even acknowledge the issues that make it unattractive to some (in this case, families with children)...efforts to correct the issue will remain ignored.

Edited June 13, 2012 by cajun

[itsjustme3]

You don't have to deal with near stop and go traffic on your morning and evening commutes, you don't need private schools,or an expensive neighborhood.

lol!

Right...because in America's urban centers, traffic doesn't exist, the public schools don't suck, and safe housing is cheap.

hint: they actually believe that and regard the people who move as:

A) racist

B) ignorant

C) backwards

D) all of the above

[buckett5425]

hint: they actually believe that and regard the people who move as:

A) racist

B) ignorant

C) backwards

D) all of the above

The answer is D.

Edited June 13, 2012 by buckett5425

[cajun]

lol!

hint: they actually believe that and regard the people who move as:

A) racist

B) ignorant

C) backwards

D) all of the above

That attitude is part of the reason why America's urban centers are in need of massive revitalization.

It's much easier to insist that everyone who leaves is racist or ignorant than actually address the problem. You rarely see people like that even recognizing the problem.

Edited June 13, 2012 by cajun

[Antrell Williams]

I'm not attacking urban living, but if we can't even acknowledge the issues that make it unattractive to some (in this case, families with children)...efforts to correct the issue will remain ignored.

I recognize why it's unattractive to some. Some of those same people deliberately try to stop efforts to fix these issues.

It's much easier to insist that everyone who leaves is racist or ignorant than actually address the problem. You rarely see people like that even recognizing the problem.

Is the removal of investment not a problem?

[itsjustme3]

Is the removal of investment not a problem?

No. It's the end result.

[buckett5425]

No. It's the end result.

I believe it would have been the cause.

Good schools didn't miraculously create themselves in the suburbs. Talented hard working middle class wanting the bourgeois lifestyle, left the cities to create them in the suburbs. Lets get that straight. With it they took their money and ideas, leaving those without means to fend for themselves in the cities. The lack of investment over the last 50 years exacerbated the problem.

I watched an interested TED Talk yesterday explaining that cultures that do the most to increase diversity, social exchange, and economic equality have the highest quality of life, social mobility, life expectancy, and education rates, versus cultures that don't. Not surprisingly the US fell very low on every chart comparing developed democracies and the presenter jokes, "If you want to live the American Dream... Move to Denmark." Our cities operate on the same scale and the cities that do the most to increase economic and culture exchange fair much better than cities who citizens said "eff it, im moving to the suburbs to be around people just like me."

Here is a link to the 15 min presentation for those of you interested in hearing the research.

Economic inequality makes societies unilaterally worse off. The U.S. is one of the most unequal countries in the developed world. See where I'm going with this?

http://www.upworthy....to-denmark?rc=i

[cajun]

Is the removal of investment not a problem?

Private capital is free to move around. When the city becomes a dump, it leaves.

It is very clearly the end result of bad policies in the urban centers....and in many cases, continued problems. 50 years ago you had riots, forced busing, and major cleanliness issues.

In fact, you had a deseg case in Baton Rouge until 2003.....children would literally be shipped across the city to attend schools that a federal judge directed. There was a huge transfer station at independence park at that time. Some kids would get on the bus as early as 5:30am. Meanwhile, you have an improving school system, lower taxes, and cheaper housing 10 miles away. It's a no brainier for those who can't afford private school or couldn't get kids into a magnet program nearby. It is even more attractive considering the sustained low fuel prices we had until a couple of years ago. Those policies started out with good intentions, but ended up as typical baby boomer era BS and corruption that carried over until after the turn of the century. Of course, the losers are the children whose family either trusted the system or couldn't afford to leave.

I've complained about the education issue over and over again. The entire system is a failure and needs to be scrapped. The existing suburban schools are not sustainable, but are still the only affordable option for middle class families who won't allow their kids to attend the failure factories that some call urban public schools.

With bad public schools, you can expect crime to increase among young adults.

Eventually, you have generations of dependents who contribute nothing to society, but have the arrogance to blame those that they drove away for their own problems. Of course they are accompanied by apologist who blame the evil heartless educated families who move away. How dare they do what is best for them?

As the tax base runs away for greener pastures, the hollowed out urban core must raise tax rates to cover their costs.....which in turn burdens the remaining economically viable residents and encourages them to leave as their home values collapse. It is an extreme version of what is just starting to happen in Baton Rouge but is years in the making in places like Memphis, Cleveland, Detroit, Baltimore, and New Orleans.

Some cities have been able to overcome this by using strategies to improve the economy in their region.....be it technology, tourism, or research. This Attracts young singles, but doesn't change the fact that America's urban centers have major problems attracting residents with children despite all of the advantages on their side.

What you have left us the educated class primarily occupying the outer rims of a city, and small enclaves within town (such as a revitalized downtown core or historic district, in many cases)...or near a university or college.

The urbanism trend in America seems economically illiterate to the needs of families with children. It's typically driven by young single adults. Nothing wrong with that, but it leaves out a key piece of the puzzle needed to sustain a city for centuries to come.

The sprawl, of course, is unsustainable. We know this. Blaming those that left is not the answer. Figuring out why they left and taking measures to attract them away from the suburbs is a start....but doesn't seem to be a priority for anyone.

The education issue, which I believe is the root of many of these problems, is likely not going to be addressed in the us outside of a few pockets. You'll see employers leave town for the suburbs before you'll see major change in education.

The voucher program in Louisiana could be the best thing to happen to address sprawl in decades. It could also fail miserably. Lots of special interest out there protecting the current system. I'll add that this is an initiative supported by a moderate-right governor...supported in overwhelming numbers in suburban areas.

Edited June 14, 2012 by cajun

[Antrell Williams]

No. It's the end result.

I'd like to see you try and explain that logic, please.

[Antrell Williams]

Private capital is free to move around. When the city becomes a dump, it leaves.

It is very clearly the end result of bad policies in the urban centers....and in many cases, continued problems.

I've complained about the education issue over and over again. The entire system is a failure and needs to be scrapped. The existing suburban schools are not sustainable, but are the only affordable option for middle class families.

With bad public schools, you can expect crime to increase among young adults.

Eventually, you have generations of dependents who contribute nothing to society, but have the arrogance to blame those that they drove away for their own problems. Of course they are accompanied by apologist who blame the evil heartless educated families who move away. How dare they do what is best for them?

As the tax base runs away for greener pastures, the hollowed out urban core must raise tax rates to cover their costs.....which in turn burdens the remaining economically viable residents and encourages them to leave as their home values collapse. It is an extreme version of what is just starting to happen in Baton Rouge but is years in the making in places like Memphis, Cleveland, Detroit, Baltimore, and New Orleans.

Some cities have been able to overcome this by using strategies to improve the economy in their region.....be it technology, tourism, or research. This Attracts young singles, but doesn't change the fact that America's urban centers have major problems attracting residents with children despite all of the advantages on their side.

The urbanism trend in America seems economically illiterate to the needs of families with children. It's primarily driven by young single adults. Nothing wrong with that, but it leaves out a key piece of the puzzle needed to sustain a city for centuries to come.

The loss of investment is not the end result, the city of Baton Rouge with are left with today is the end result. When you leave, you take everything with you.

Don't take your shoestrings out of your shoes and then wonder why you can't run.

The education system, the subconscious idea was to leave to the suburbs and let the current system remain idle and futile for years to come until the suburbs become unattractive and people begin coming back to the city.

Some of the same people that are blamed for leaving are the same people who use Baton Rouge everyday as a city but not residing there. Adding to the strain put on the city. How dare these people abandon the city and have the audacity to open their mouth and complain about anything.

The pastures in suburbia are as green as grass during a drought. It could be better, although in Louisiana we don't plan cities or plan for the future. We plan for today and tomorrow as if the future will never come.

This has been happening in Baton Rouge and will continue until it becomes more attractive and financially responsible to live in the city you work in.

The urbanism trend is driven by a new generation, not by primarily young singles. Today's TND's offer family amenities (schools, libraries, parks, etc) within reach.

[itsjustme3]

Good schools didn't miraculously create themselves in the suburbs. Talented hard working middle class wanting the bourgeois lifestyle, left the cities to create them in the suburbs. Lets get that straight.

LOL. yes. Those vile people. How dare they leave. Surely it wasn't because of crime, garbage schools, high taxes, litter, lack of values, etc. No. It was they just wanted a bourgeois lifestyle. That line of thought just validates my point. Thanks.

[itsjustme3]

The loss of investment is not the end result, the city of Baton Rouge with are left with today is the end result. When you leave, you take everything with you.

lol. It's the same thing. Urban areas took people for granted and now those people are gone. For once try asking "what drove people away?" without blaming the people for merely leaving.

Those people and their money are NOT coming back until urban areas change. It's just that simple.

Edited June 14, 2012 by itsjustme2

[buckett5425]

LOL. yes. Those vile people. How dare they leave. Surely it wasn't because of crime, garbage schools, high taxes, litter, lack of values, etc. No. It was they just wanted a bourgeois lifestyle. That line of thought just validates my point. Thanks.

I never called anyone who left the cities "vile." I said they were hard working talented people. Yes, they did desire the bourgeois lifestyle of the time. In the 50's cities weren't crime infested, they were simply overcrowded from all the GI's returning from WWII starting families. The government however chose to only subsidize single family housing and turned its back on multi-family residential, which gave rise to the suburb, etc etc etc. When people left for this new way of living, they took with them their money and ideas. At the same time big box retail began to spring up as well as the rise of the shopping mall. Both of which directed local dollars to multi national corporations further reducing the amount of capital and cash flow circulating in local economies(this problem still occurs to this day). By the 1960's the majority of commercial activity had relocated to their customer base... out in the suburbs. This final act left downtown's empty and full of, as you put it, "crime, garbage schools, high taxes, litter, lack of values, etc."

Please pick up a book.

http://www.amazon.com/Bourgeois-Utopias-Rise-Fall-Suburbia/dp/0465007473