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Homeless in Heartside

GRDadof3

By GRDadof3
in Grand Rapids

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ccbarnes Unincorporated Area

ccbarnes

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My thoughts...

-I've been threatened, verbally and physically by homless men on numerous occasions.

-My wife has been threatened and sexually harrassed on numerous occasions by homeless men.

-I'm really sick of having to wade through a dozen peole asking me for money as I walk to my car 2 blocks away(EVERY NIGHT!) It gets OLD FAST.

-I used th DT public libary once only to see it being used as a warming and washing station in bewteen meals. I don't use that branch much anymore. It was loud and creepy.

-If I was a suburban man with a family...and any of these occurances happen with my family, I would not come back down.

-To me...it's not heartless to move the homeless down Division. It's a capitalist world...supply/demand.

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BostonianinGR Unincorporated Area

BostonianinGR

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Very interesting question: here are some general thoughts in response to various comments.

1.) Chicago also has a lot of homeless: True, but what matters is not the absolute number of homeless, but the relative number. There are lots of homeless in big cities, but they are only a small fraction of the number of people working and living downtown. Consequently, they don't seem to matter. They also don't pose as much of a threat (if they are mentally challenged) because there are lots other of people around at all times of the day or night - one can always get help from someone on the street.

2.) The homeless have moved from the suburbs to the city: This is actually a reasonable assertion and one that is supported by a fair amount of data. There was actually a paper in the Journal of Urban Economics a few years ago about this issue.

3.) I think GR dad is right regarding "being too compassionate": I think this may be the result of cognitive dissonance. Cognitive dissonance basically means that people try to find ways to reconcile inconsistant actions or feelings in their lives. For example, a compassionate person who steps out of Leo's after a nice meal sees a homeless person. Having just spent a tonne of money on a nice meal, he feels guilty for having to even deal with this homeless person. So he finds some way to justify his expensive meal (perhaps tell himself that he donates a lot of money to homeless shelters at other times etc. etc.) I'm not pointing fingers here at anyone, I speak for myself, but I also know that we;ve probably all been in these situations.

Cognitive dissonance often gives rise to this sort of "artificial compassion": giving in order to surpress ones own guilt for living comfortably. There are some interesting studies of this issue - be happy to provide references to anyone interested in details.

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GR8-town Unincorporated Area

GR8-town

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Very interesting question: here are some general thoughts in response to various comments.

1.) Chicago also has a lot of homeless: True, but what matters is not the absolute number of homeless, but the relative number. There are lots of homeless in big cities, but they are only a small fraction of the number of people working and living downtown. Consequently, they don't seem to matter. They also don't pose as much of a threat (if they are mentally challenged) because there are lots other of people around at all times of the day or night - one can always get help from someone on the street.

2.) The homeless have moved from the suburbs to the city: This is actually a reasonable assertion and one that is supported by a fair amount of data. There was actually a paper in the Journal of Urban Economics a few years ago about this issue.

3.) I think GR dad is right regarding "being too compassionate": I think this may be the result of cognitive dissonance. Cognitive dissonance basically means that people try to find ways to reconcile inconsistant actions or feelings in their lives. For example, a compassionate person who steps out of Leo's after a nice meal sees a homeless person. Having just spent a tonne of money on a nice meal, he feels guilty for having to even deal with this homeless person. So he finds some way to justify his expensive meal (perhaps tell himself that he donates a lot of money to homeless shelters at other times etc. etc.) I'm not pointing fingers here at anyone, I speak for myself, but I also know that we;ve probably all been in these situations.

Cognitive dissonance often gives rise to this sort of "artificial compassion": giving in order to surpress ones own for living comfortably. There are some interesting studies of this issue - be happy to provide references to anyone interested in details.

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GRDadof3 Ecumenopolis

GRDadof3

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When?!

I go there 3 or 4 times a week and have never ever experienced this.

Good lord, it's 2 blocks(isH) from the Children's Museum. I never see the problem there either.

This was a thread about the heartside district. All of a sudden you're talking about armies of homeless aggressors at the DT library (which is nowhere near the missions of Heartside)

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civitas Burg

civitas

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For example, a compassionate person who steps out of Leo's after a nice meal sees a homeless person. Having just spent a tonne of money on a nice meal, he feels guilty for having to even deal with this homeless person. So he finds some way to justify his expensive meal (perhaps tell himself that he donates a lot of money to homeless shelters at other times etc. etc.)

Cognitive dissonance often gives rise to this sort of "artificial compassion": giving in order to surpress ones own guilt for living comfortably. There are some interesting studies of this issue - be happy to provide references to anyone interested in details.

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GRDadof3 Ecumenopolis

GRDadof3

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Your example would be of an UN-compassionate person. Your argument makes no sense if the person was truly compassionate.

Although I'm sure there are un-compassionate people in Grand Rapids, I think the majority of this community is sincerely compassionate and generous.

On the other hand, if the "artificially" compassionate give meaningfully to worthwhile causes, why should we care about their motives? For good reasons or bad, legitimate needs are being met. If you're interested in a similar Christian analogy, read Philippians 1:15-18.

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mifunboy Unincorporated Area

mifunboy

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Your example would be of an UN-compassionate person. Your argument makes no sense if the person was truly compassionate.

Although I'm sure there are un-compassionate people in Grand Rapids, I think the majority of this community is sincerely compassionate and generous.

On the other hand, if the "artificially" compassionate give meaningfully to worthwhile causes, why should we care about their motives? For good reasons or bad, legitimate needs are being met. If you're interested in a similar Christian analogy, read Philippians 1:15-18.

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AlexPKeaton Burg

AlexPKeaton

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Who here can judge the motives behind another's giving? And who's to say what amount is "paltry?" People's motives and situations are known only to themselves and God, so can we drop that aspect of this conversation? Or, if it continues, maybe some people should be prepared to back their statements up with actions.

The homeless population is a drag on the South Division area. Perhaps as the area develops economics will push them out, but they'll just be somewhere else.

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GR8-town Unincorporated Area

GR8-town

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We should care about their motives if they're insincere (or even self-serving). Or we should at least not go around patting these artificials on the back for it. But doesn't it seem strange that all the missions have been cordoned off to a 2 block area, far away from any residential areas (especially suburban areas)? And why is it that the food banks get more donations than they can handle at Thanksgiving and Christmas, and yet are begging for food the rest of the year? Is it just because the "guilt-sermons" are pulled out on the pulpit that time of year?

I still maintain that having all the homeless penned up in that area is bad for Grand Rapids, and needs to be changed. How, I don't know.

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joeDowntown Metropolis

joeDowntown

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... and back to the subject at hand, I will be the second evil one to come out of the pack. I don't care what people believe to be righteous, or make themselves believe is righteous, very few people want to eat, sleep or shop in an area that is over-run by panhandlers and people who are less than clean.

It may make some people tremor to hear these words but it is the gawd awful truth. I don't think it has anything to do with guilt, I think it has everything to do with safety and comfort. I for one am not afraid to walk in most areas of town, but honestly, the line outside of Guiding Light Mission or Mel Trotter makes me uneasy. Do I feel sympathetic to the plight of these people? Yes. Does it make me want to do the right thing and support the area. Not really.

I think the missions are bad for business south of Fulton. I think it would take a herculean effort to make that area a retail hub. Everyone has a "fight or flight" mechanism built into them, and I bet if you took a blind poll of people about there thoughts on S. Division between Fulton and Wealthy I think most people would say "NO WAY" would I shop in the area.

I even make the occasional stop at Reb's place, or Scavenger hunt, but these are pin-point attacks. I don't walk the street because I know someone'll try to hustle me (no your car isn't broken down and you don't have your nine month pregnant wife in the car). Sometimes I wonder why these retailers put themselves through such pain. Location, Location, guy pissing on your stoop. It just doesn't work.

I think Dwelling place has done a great job of trying to stabilize the neighborhood without the gentrification, but with the Mission's there, I think it will always seem like Skid Row to most people (including me). And it is a darn shame as some of my favorite buildings sit on Division.

WWJD (the J stands for Joe right?). I'd stay the heck away from Division.

Ok, let me have it.

Joe

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GRDadof3 Ecumenopolis

GRDadof3

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... and back to the subject at hand, I will be the second evil one to come out of the pack. I don't care what people believe to be righteous, or make themselves believe is righteous, very few people want to eat, sleep or shop in an area that is over-run by panhandlers and people who are less than clean.

It may make some people tremor to hear these words but it is the gawd awful truth. I don't think it has anything to do with guilt, I think it has everything to do with safety and comfort. I for one am not afraid to walk in most areas of town, but honestly, the line outside of Guiding Light Mission or Mel Trotter makes me uneasy. Do I feel sympathetic to the plight of these people? Yes. Does it make me want to do the right thing and support the area. Not really.

I think the missions are bad for business south of Fulton. I think it would take a herculean effort to make that area a retail hub. Everyone has a "fight or flight" mechanism built into them, and I bet if you took a blind poll of people about there thoughts on S. Division between Fulton and Wealthy I think most people would say "NO WAY" would I shop in the area.

I even make the occasional stop at Reb's place, or Scavenger hunt, but these are pin-point attacks. I don't walk the street because I know someone'll try to hustle me (no your car isn't broken down and you don't have your nine month pregnant wife in the car). Sometimes I wonder why these retailers put themselves through such pain. Location, Location, guy pissing on your stoop. It just doesn't work.

I think Dwelling place has done a great job of trying to stabilize the neighborhood without the gentrification, but with the Mission's there, I think it will always seem like Skid Row to most people (including me). And it is a darn shame as some of my favorite buildings sit on Division.

WWJD (the J stands for Joe right?). I'd stay the heck away from Division.

Ok, let me have it.

Joe

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snoogit Town

snoogit

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To move the missions would take similar situations as moving the Post office from downtown.

It's going to take someone to offer enough for the spot to not only pay for a new building, but everything else that it would take to move. It would not surprise me if it took $5 - $20 million a piece to move each mission out of the area. Each one would have to be moved, and all expenses paid for, since these missions do not make a dime in profit. even then, some are so big and settled in that they can't feasibly move at all without leaving the homeless behind. And then what happens? Now you have homeless people with absolutely no where to go, and absolutely nothing to do but break the law.

But just moving the missions won't change people's minds on heart side. It probably won't even change the climate of the area.

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Mark Miller Whistle-Stop

Mark Miller

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My thoughts...

-I've been threatened, verbally and physically by homless men on numerous occasions.

-My wife has been threatened and sexually harrassed on numerous occasions by homeless men.

-I'm really sick of having to wade through a dozen peole asking me for money as I walk to my car 2 blocks away(EVERY NIGHT!) It gets OLD FAST.

-I used th DT public libary once only to see it being used as a warming and washing station in bewteen meals. I don't use that branch much anymore. It was loud and creepy.

-If I was a suburban man with a family...and any of these occurances happen with my family, I would not come back down.

-To me...it's not heartless to move the homeless down Division. It's a capitalist world...supply/demand.

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GRDadof3 Ecumenopolis

GRDadof3

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On the occassion when I venture from the confines of my immediate blocks, I unfortunately have had similar experiences. My entire family, including my three small children, were accosted by a dillusional woman at the park at the corner of Logan and Prospect, eventually the exchange prompted this woman to say "I hope all your kids die by 18". Last week I had a guy purposely walk across the street just to taunt my dog, saying he was "going to F her up"....

...Poverty and homelessness is not the problem, the problem lies in the concentrations of poverty and homelessness. The fact that all of this stuff is concentrated in a small area of the city instead of being integrated into diverse populations creates the stereotypes, the racism, etc.

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