The Promenade At Chenal

[Architect]

5 hours ago, LRretail said:

The Aloft has already started construction on the southern end of Bank OZK.  It may be a traffic driver for people wanting to stay in an Aloft but the project is $15M with over 120 rooms.  That translates to about a $90k/month mortgage.  That is HUGE.  You have to selling a ton of rooms every night to make any profits.  It makes me a little worried because there's not alot of folks outside of the Downtown LR area that will spend $140/night to stay at a hotel no matter where in the city it is.  It used to be that part of the allure of staying at Aloft was that there are not many Starwood Hotel properties in Little Rock besides the Four Points Sheraton in Midtown.  But since Marriott bought Starwood, the Aloft brand has suddenly found itself amongst a bunch of sister Marriott properties.  So it's not as significant to stay at an Aloft as it once was to get SPG points instead of Marriott points.  

The Aloft will also have to fend off the Tru by Hilton property that is going to be built in 2019 behind the Walgreens on Chenal/Wellington.  

Not many people know that the main cause of unsuccessful businesses in the Promenade (the list is long and distinguished at this point) is the highest rent factor in Little Rock in a shopping venue that has the least amount of traffic during certain seasons.  It's not centralized in location and so it has to be a destination for some.  I'll drive to Chenal if I'm elsewhere in the city to go to the Apple Store or the Nike outlet.  But not Urban Outfitters or VS or any of the other stores that already have stores in Park Plaza, etc.  Since the Nike outlet is going to the outlet mall by Bass Pro, there might be little reason to go to Promenade besides Apple.  

There are literally ZERO hotel options within a 3 mile radius (and it might even be 5), and Aloft is a destination...I'm doubtful demand will be an issue.

Also, what do you mean about Nike?  They've been at the Outlet Mall since its inception.  That's not new (and frankly, the Nike store at the Promenade is always quite busy).  I, for one, don't think the turnover at the Promenade is any more unusual than any random retail center, though I agree it's at a disadvantage due to its (current) remote locale, but they may have the last laugh in 15-20 years.

[LRretail]

On 12/17/2018 at 11:14 PM, Architect said:

There are literally ZERO hotel options within a 3 mile radius (and it might even be 5), and Aloft is a destination...I'm doubtful demand will be an issue.

Also, what do you mean about Nike?  They've been at the Outlet Mall since its inception.  That's not new (and frankly, the Nike store at the Promenade is always quite busy).  I, for one, don't think the turnover at the Promenade is any more unusual than any random retail center, though I agree it's at a disadvantage due to its (current) remote locale, but they may have the last laugh in 15-20 years.

I agree with you that there aren't any hotels in about a 3 mile radius.  There's sort of a reason for that.  There's not a ton of demand as there are limited office users.  The office users that are present are somewhat scattered.  The Aloft also isn't the Capital Hotel.  It doesn't have a high end restaurant on property and it's just hotel brand.  This is going to be a suburban Aloft location which historically haven't done as well as their urban city center counterparts.  The Aloft in Rogers is a good example.  There's not going to be a convention style aspect to the property.  It's not going to be a resort.  What are you left with then?  It's just another hotel.  Hotel guests are usually loyal to their system.  Alot of the folks that were loyal to Starwood are now lumped into the Marriott system.  That's not a bad thing.  I'm a Marriott guy myself.  But the Aloft location is so far removed from many of the main traffic drivers in the city.  If I'm a Marriott guy there are alot of other options for me to get points and I may or may not want to drive all the way out just to stay at Aloft.  

Nike is leaving Promenade at the end of it's current lease option.  They've stated that it's not feasible to have two outlet stores which they have better efficiency of the store at the Outlet Mall near Bass Pro.  I believe they have 1.5 or 2 years left on their current lease term and will opt out at the end of the current one.  

I also asked some sources close to the deal with Ruth Chris taking over Del Frisco's and they're telling me the deal has stalled.  They can't agree on how much of the current rent Del Frisco's is willing to subsidize for Ruth Chris.  I'm hoping that they get something done here and Ruth Chris finally lands somewhere.  

[Architect]

10 minutes ago, LRretail said:

I agree with you that there aren't any hotels in about a 3 mile radius.  There's sort of a reason for that.  There's not a ton of demand as there are limited office users.  The office users that are present are somewhat scattered.  The Aloft also isn't the Capital Hotel.  It doesn't have a high end restaurant on property and it's just hotel brand.  This is going to be a suburban Aloft location which historically haven't done as well as their urban city center counterparts.  The Aloft in Rogers is a good example.  There's not going to be a convention style aspect to the property.  It's not going to be a resort.  What are you left with then?  It's just another hotel.  Hotel guests are usually loyal to their system.  Alot of the folks that were loyal to Starwood are now lumped into the Marriott system.  That's not a bad thing.  I'm a Marriott guy myself.  But the Aloft location is so far removed from many of the main traffic drivers in the city.  If I'm a Marriott guy there are alot of other options for me to get points and I may or may not want to drive all the way out just to stay at Aloft.  

Nike is leaving Promenade at the end of it's current lease option.  They've stated that it's not feasible to have two outlet stores which they have better efficiency of the store at the Outlet Mall near Bass Pro.  I believe they have 1.5 or 2 years left on their current lease term and will opt out at the end of the current one.  

I also asked some sources close to the deal with Ruth Chris taking over Del Frisco's and they're telling me the deal has stalled.  They can't agree on how much of the current rent Del Frisco's is willing to subsidize for Ruth Chris.  I'm hoping that they get something done here and Ruth Chris finally lands somewhere.  

Very good points about the hotel...I'm a big fan of Starwood and Aloft, so I hope it does well.  Also, I do hope Ruth's Chris can land, but I'm actually concerned about that location for them for all of the "remote" issues of that center, and its proximity to Arthur's, which is arguably better.  Ruth's Chris is very much a "business clientele" restaurant, and would be much more suited, with less competition in a downtown location (which was strongly considered a few years ago - it was even listed as a requirement for them to locate in LR near the convention hotels).

[ecity3138]

5 hours ago, LRretail said:

I agree with you that there aren't any hotels in about a 3 mile radius.  There's sort of a reason for that.  There's not a ton of demand as there are limited office users.  The office users that are present are somewhat scattered.  The Aloft also isn't the Capital Hotel.  It doesn't have a high end restaurant on property and it's just hotel brand.  This is going to be a suburban Aloft location which historically haven't done as well as their urban city center counterparts.  The Aloft in Rogers is a good example.  There's not going to be a convention style aspect to the property.  It's not going to be a resort.  What are you left with then?  It's just another hotel.  Hotel guests are usually loyal to their system.  Alot of the folks that were loyal to Starwood are now lumped into the Marriott system.  That's not a bad thing.  I'm a Marriott guy myself.  But the Aloft location is so far removed from many of the main traffic drivers in the city.  If I'm a Marriott guy there are alot of other options for me to get points and I may or may not want to drive all the way out just to stay at Aloft.  

Nike is leaving Promenade at the end of it's current lease option.  They've stated that it's not feasible to have two outlet stores which they have better efficiency of the store at the Outlet Mall near Bass Pro.  I believe they have 1.5 or 2 years left on their current lease term and will opt out at the end of the current one.  

I also asked some sources close to the deal with Ruth Chris taking over Del Frisco's and they're telling me the deal has stalled.  They can't agree on how much of the current rent Del Frisco's is willing to subsidize for Ruth Chris.  I'm hoping that they get something done here and Ruth Chris finally lands somewhere.  

Wow, things are not looking good for the Promenade At Chenal future. With Nike and  Kenneth Edward’s Jewelry closing along with some vacant spaces next to DSW, the shopping center will become extinct in 5 years despite the planned Aloft hotel.  I know people being ignoring my comments, but part of the problem with the shopping center attracting and maintaining tenants  is the lack of visibility from a major highway (I-430 or I-30) in less dense part of town. Not too many people who are out of town is going to drive that far to do some shopping when they can go to other shopping areas (Outlet Mall, Park Plaza, or McCain Mall) in a more populated area of town. It does not surprise me to see Nike closing down at the end of their lease with their Promenade location considering the Outlet Mall location is more efficient in terms of profit and easy access from the highway in a large development (Gateway Town Center) with high visibility from the freeway. I really wish Red Development would have chosen the Shackleford Crossing site for their development rather than the Chenal site. We would even had stores/restaurants that everybody been wishing for a long time because most retailers and restaurants love to be in a dense part of town with easy access to major highway. 

Also, Ruth Chris Steakhouse would be better in Midtown Little Rock rather than the Promenade (even though the Promenade location will fit better with other upscale restaurants in the area) since the Promenade is not in a dense populated part of town like Midtown Little Rock is.

Edited December 20, 2018 by ecity3138

[jcaruth]

Actually the Aloft is being planned with a full service restaurant and lounge. The owner wants it to be a destination hotel unlike most suburban Alofts. Similar to how stable 21 is in the Butgundy Hotel. 

[LRretail]

4 hours ago, jcaruth said:

Actually the Aloft is being planned with a full service restaurant and lounge. The owner wants it to be a destination hotel unlike most suburban Alofts. Similar to how stable 21 is in the Butgundy Hotel. 

I very much hope that restaurant, if one matriculates through to this property, ends up doing well.  Historically hotel restaurants haven't done so well except perhaps in the Capital Hotel's case.  However, the Capital Hotel is sort of Warren Stephens' play thing.  It typically doesn't make money on an annual basis.  I live in the Chenal area so for the sake of my neck of the woods, I'm very much hoping that the Aloft does well having to pay the hefty mortgage and hoping there's enough demand in the scattered office users and wider spread rooftops to support this $16M venture.  To give some comparison to how much of an investment that is, the Embassy Suites built on Chenal Parkway back in the day came at a cost of $17M.  It took seven different mortgages to accomplish that, with the smallest of those mortgages being a $300k loan to collateralize the small wares (plates, cups, silverware, etc.) needed to open the food and beverage operation in the hotel.  The Embassy Suites was built in a much denser trade area with tons of offices and residents surrounding it with large amounts of convention space.  Let's all hope the new Aloft can gather as much success.  

[Architect]

I very much hope that restaurant, if one matriculates through to this property, ends up doing well.  Historically hotel restaurants haven't done so well except perhaps in the Capital Hotel's case.  However, the Capital Hotel is sort of Warren Stephens' play thing.  It typically doesn't make money on an annual basis.  I live in the Chenal area so for the sake of my neck of the woods, I'm very much hoping that the Aloft does well having to pay the hefty mortgage and hoping there's enough demand in the scattered office users and wider spread rooftops to support this $16M venture.  To give some comparison to how much of an investment that is, the Embassy Suites built on Chenal Parkway back in the day came at a cost of $17M.  It took seven different mortgages to accomplish that, with the smallest of those mortgages being a $300k loan to collateralize the small wares (plates, cups, silverware, etc.) needed to open the food and beverage operation in the hotel.  The Embassy Suites was built in a much denser trade area with tons of offices and residents surrounding it with large amounts of convention space.  Let's all hope the new Aloft can gather as much success.  

For a LOT of reasons, it’s too bad that Bank OZKs headquarters expansion didn’t stay in that location...of course, then there’d be no room for Aloft (Ha!).


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[LRretail]

10 hours ago, Architect said:

For a LOT of reasons, it’s too bad that Bank OZKs headquarters expansion didn’t stay in that location...of course, then there’d be no room for Aloft (Ha!).


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I'm not sure there would be enough space for Gleason Land at the current Bank of Ozarks HQ.  I know they are planning for a hotel and other amenities at the site they are building on.  But I agree I wish they would have just expanded at their current site.  It would keep a lot of interest closer to the Promenade.  I feel like it's to the Aloft's detriment that Bank of Ozarks is going a bit further away.  Although I could never see Bank of Ozarks selling that property or doing away with it.  Much like their first building at Chenal & Markham.

[Architect]

1 hour ago, LRretail said:

I'm not sure there would be enough space for Gleason Land at the current Bank of Ozarks HQ.  I know they are planning for a hotel and other amenities at the site they are building on.  But I agree I wish they would have just expanded at their current site.  It would keep a lot of interest closer to the Promenade.  I feel like it's to the Aloft's detriment that Bank of Ozarks is going a bit further away.  Although I could never see Bank of Ozarks selling that property or doing away with it.  Much like their first building at Chenal & Markham.

I wish Bank OZK had been interested in this being a transformative project for Central Arkansas, and considered building a tower downtown...similar to the Devon Energy project, though perhaps not on that scale. The Cantrell corridor didn’t need another suburban office development, nor the traffic that comes of it.

 

 

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[Walls99]

4 hours ago, Architect said:

I wish Bank OZK had been interested in this being a transformative project for Central Arkansas, and considered building a tower downtown...similar to the Devon Energy project, though perhaps not on that scale. The Cantrell corridor didn’t need another suburban office development, nor the traffic that comes of it.

 

 

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I agree. Why continue the trend of sprawl in suburban areas rather than build a tower downtown as a large project? Would be good for brand recognition (having their name plastered on a 300-400ft building) and would help continue bringing more business attraction downtown. West Cantrell does not need another suburban office development.

[LRretail]

On 12/21/2018 at 4:47 PM, Architect said:

I wish Bank OZK had been interested in this being a transformative project for Central Arkansas, and considered building a tower downtown...similar to the Devon Energy project, though perhaps not on that scale. The Cantrell corridor didn’t need another suburban office development, nor the traffic that comes of it.

 

 

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Wasn't close enough to Mr. Gleason's home.  That is the entire reason why Bank of the Ozarks current HQ is where it is and their home base will be out west close to Chenal as long as he lives in the area.  

[Architect]

Wasn't close enough to Mr. Gleason's home.  That is the entire reason why Bank of the Ozarks current HQ is where it is and their home base will be out west close to Chenal as long as he lives in the area.  

Exactly. Very much not transformative.


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[LRretail]

Went to the Apple Store yesterday to get some work done on my Mac.  Driving into the main entrance of Promenade I felt this overwhelming sense of sadness by seeing former sites of Pei Wei, Del Frisco's, Tavern, and then Kenneth Edwards all dark storefronts with significant window space.  Nothing new to talk about.  It's just sort of depressing.  Of all the things that bums me out the most is the closing of Portrait Innovations.  I took my family here to get photos done from time to time.  Best part was they would print your photos out for you right after the session so you didn't have to get stuff ordered or wait forever for them to come back.  Odd thing to miss but we thought it was a great product.  I am HOWEVER very grateful for the AMC Chenal 9 movie theater being open so we could go see Aquaman on the IMAX as a family.  

[EJC]

If the “rent is too damn high” then they simple need to address that pronto.  Otherwise they’ll reach a point where it will be a challenge to attract any stores because of the depressed appearance. 

[Architect]

I guess I’ll agree to disagree. I don’t think the normal shopper would go to the Promenade and get any sense that it’s different than any other center. It’s at least 75% occupied and I’d guess the turnover is about typical of any retail development. I hate the closures of Pei Wei (no street visibility and the location is remote) and Del Friscos (their only foray outside of Texas, which frankly didn’t offer anything exceptional except pricing), but otherwise, the center has some landmark tenants, several of which were added relatively recently.


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[EJC]

3 minutes ago, Architect said:

I guess I’ll agree to disagree. I don’t think the normal shopper would go to the Promenade and get any sense that it’s different than any other center. It’s at least 75% occupied and I’d guess the turnover is about typical of any retail development. I hate the closures of Pei Wei (no street visibility and the location is remote) and Del Friscos (their only foray outside of Texas, which frankly didn’t offer anything exceptional except pricing), but otherwise, the center has some landmark tenants, several of which were added relatively recently.


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Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't think it is 75% occupied - and that's not counting the spots that have never been occupied.  Not disappointed about Del Frisco's - you are right - nothing new and nothing that Arthur's couldn't do better - but occupancy right now is a bit of a downer.  And that's coming from someone who has long been a fan of this development.  

[Architect]

28 minutes ago, EJC said:

Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't think it is 75% occupied - and that's not counting the spots that have never been occupied.  Not disappointed about Del Frisco's - you are right - nothing new and nothing that Arthur's couldn't do better - but occupancy right now is a bit of a downer.  And that's coming from someone who has long been a fan of this development.  

I’ll bet it is by square footage (which is what matters).  Like I said, either way, I don’t get the sense - nor would the average shopper - that the center is empty or otherwise not doing well.  It’s always fairly busy, and has lots of signature tenants.  I’m not arguing that it’s performing to expectations, but I am doubtful it’s in dire shape by any stretch.   What the center lacks is a better location and an ANCHOR tenant (dept. store)...I think Parisians (now Belk) would have done well there, if not Macy’s.  But the days of new department store construction are long gone.

[ecity3138]

13 hours ago, EJC said:

Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't think it is 75% occupied - and that's not counting the spots that have never been occupied.  Not disappointed about Del Frisco's - you are right - nothing new and nothing that Arthur's couldn't do better - but occupancy right now is a bit of a downer.  And that's coming from someone who has long been a fan of this development.  

The problem with this shopping center is the location being in a less dense populated area of town especially during weekday. It may be packed on weekends but daytime traffic during the week is lacking. I’ve spoken with the mall management about luring some stores such as H&M (which eventually open at Park Plaza and the Outlet Mall) and even they said that stores like H&M would be better fit for Park Plaza and the Outlet Mall because of the dense population as well as high visibility. They also said some stores and restaurants (including a few stores and restaurants that would been new to Arkansas) stated the lack of dense population was the main reason not to locate at the Promenade. That’s why Nike is closing their Promenade location at the end of their lease in favor of the Outlet Mall because the Outlet Mall location is more feasible to remain open considering the store is in a high visibility location from a major highway.

Apple Store, along with a few good restaurants, is the Promenade’s main draw to attract people to the center. Otherwise, this mall will be dead in a few years.

Edited January 3, 2019 by ecity3138

[vbfl85]

21 hours ago, Architect said:

I guess I’ll agree to disagree. I don’t think the normal shopper would go to the Promenade and get any sense that it’s different than any other center. It’s at least 75% occupied and I’d guess the turnover is about typical of any retail development. I hate the closures of Pei Wei (no street visibility and the location is remote) and Del Friscos (their only foray outside of Texas, which frankly didn’t offer anything exceptional except pricing), but otherwise, the center has some landmark tenants, several of which were added relatively recently.


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Del Friscos Grille has several locations outside of Texas.  I know of Atlanta, Nashville, and Ft. Lauderdale at least.  In all fairness, LR is a much smaller market than those.  Its no surprise it didn't last.

[Architect]

Del Friscos Grille has several locations outside of Texas.  I know of Atlanta, Nashville, and Ft. Lauderdale at least.  In all fairness, LR is a much smaller market than those.  Its no surprise it didn't last.

The paper said (and I it certainly could be wrong) that it was the only one of its type outside of Texas. I’m not overly familiar with the Del Frisco franchise, but are you sure you aren’t talking about full-sized Del Frisco’s vs the “grill” concept, which I had understood was new?


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The problem with this shopping center is the location being in a less dense populated area of town especially during weekday. It may be packed on weekends but daytime traffic during the week is lacking. I’ve spoken with the mall management about luring some stores such as H&M (which eventually open at Park Plaza and the Outlet Mall) and even they said that stores like H&M would be better fit for Park Plaza and the Outlet Mall because of the dense population as well as high visibility. They also said some stores and restaurants (including a few stores and restaurants that would been new to Arkansas) stated the lack of dense population was the main reason not to locate at the Promenade. That’s why Nike is closing their Promenade location at the end of their lease in favor of the Outlet Mall because the Outlet Mall location is more feasible to remain open considering the store is in a high visibility location from a major highway.
Apple Store, along with a few good restaurants, is the Promenade’s main draw to attract people to the center. Otherwise, this mall will be dead in a few years.

It won’t be dead. I agree it is remote, but the density will only increase over time, and the demographic of its immediate area is unsurpassed in Arkansas...which is a big plus.


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[vbfl85]

4 minutes ago, Architect said:

The paper said (and I it certainly could be wrong) that it was the only one of its type outside of Texas. I’m not overly familiar with the Del Frisco franchise, but are you sure you aren’t talking about full-sized Del Frisco’s vs the “grill” concept, which I had understood was new?


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According to the websites the Double Eagle Steakhouse "full-sized" and the Grille both have around 20 locations each, scattered around the country.  Granted there are probably more in Texas than any other state. 

[Architect]

According to the websites the Double Eagle Steakhouse "full-sized" and the Grille both have around 20 locations each, scattered around the country.  Granted there are probably more in Texas than any other state. 

Gotcha. Obviously the DemGaz was incorrect (and I should have verified!). Thanks.


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[ecity3138]

6 hours ago, Architect said:

The paper said (and I it certainly could be wrong) that it was the only one of its type outside of Texas. I’m not overly familiar with the Del Frisco franchise, but are you sure you aren’t talking about full-sized Del Frisco’s vs the “grill” concept, which I had understood was new?


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It won’t be dead. I agree it is remote, but the density will only increase over time, and the demographic of its immediate area is unsurpassed in Arkansas...which is a big plus.


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Most retailers and restaurants that would be new to the market don’t see an increase in dense population and demographics within the next few years for that area. There was several recent attempts from mall management about luring new to the market stores or restaurants, however, some of those companies’ real estate division  stated the lack of population and demographics within certain miles of the shopping center was the main reason for them not to locate at the Promenade.  It would be nice if Red Development would have chosen the Shackleford Crossing site rather than the Chenal site for their Arkansas development. We would have seen stores , restaurants , and other business not current in the market locating there. I love the Chenal area and think it’s a beautiful subdivision, however,  it wasn’t feasible to put a shopping center in the area from a business standpoint. I’m sure many retailers and restaurants would agree.

Edited January 4, 2019 by ecity3138

[Architect]

Most retailers and restaurants that would be new to the market don’t see an increase in dense population and demographics within the next few years for that area. There was several recent attempts from mall management about luring new to the market stores or restaurants, however, some of those companies’ real estate division  stated the lack of population and demographics within certain miles of the shopping center was the main reason for them not to locate at the Promenade.  It would be nice if Red Development would have chosen the Shackleford Crossing site rather than the Chenal site for their Arkansas development. We would have seen stores , restaurants , and other business not current in the market locating there. I love the Chenal area and think it’s a beautiful subdivision, however,  it wasn’t feasible to put a shopping center in the area from a business standpoint. I’m sure many retailers and restaurants would agree.

Long term. People used to think University (Hayes Street) was the edge of town. And it was.


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[SangreRaVen]

White walking around Promenade over this past weekend, I noticed another larger store looks to be gone or maybe something else was going on with it. Maybe it was gone before and I just did not notice it, it was the store on the round about in the center of the complex across from the Jewelry store that recently closed (same side as Big Orange and  Bravo and circled below) not sure of the name. I noticed guys working on the front of the building at that location, almost looked like taking down the sign and filling the holes ect. Their map on their site is out of date as well as I am pretty sure Charming Charlie has been gone for a while. 

 

-R

Edited February 25, 2019 by SangreRaVen
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