Jump to content

LIT uPP

The Promenade At Chenal

Recommended Posts

I couldn't agree with you more on all points (it will eventually be crowded out there - just seems too remote to make a legitimate go today) - especially the diversification of developments. Total lost opportunity...lots of mickey mouse stuff really.

I agree. There are plenty of houses out there, but there are few good restraunts, etc. to draw people that far out. Even though there's many residences, it's not enough to pull and support two large centers, ala Promenade and Parisian's. O, as a side note, Parisian's is moving out a lot of there higher end lines of clothing and replacing them with lower end ones this quarter. I heard from an insider. They're not selling the expensive stuff hardly at all.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites


I agree. There are plenty of houses out there, but there are few good restraunts, etc. to draw people that far out. Even though there's many residences, it's not enough to pull and support two large centers, ala Promenade and Parisian's. O, as a side note, Parisian's is moving out a lot of there higher end lines of clothing and replacing them with lower end ones this quarter. I heard from an insider. They're not selling the expensive stuff hardly at all.

That's because it's no longer Parisian. It's a high end Belk's, which is still just a Belk's.

The only loser in this is Lou Schickel. The city and its residents will benefit from more retail.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

That's because it's no longer Parisian. It's a high end Belk's, which is still just a Belk's.

The only loser in this is Lou Schickel. The city and its residents will benefit from more retail.

Yes, it's a Belk, but the fact is that they are not selling the more expensive lines well. Not surprising. I don't think that location or anything else is the issue here, it's simply that the LR market doesn't purchase $200 jeans en masse.

Back to Promenade, based upon the existing development, and the planned future condos in the area and other items, I think this will likely be a success and it's lifestyle theme will sit well in that wooded/natural location.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yes, it's a Belk, but the fact is that they are not selling the more expensive lines well. Not surprising. I don't think that location or anything else is the issue here, it's simply that the LR market doesn't purchase $200 jeans en masse.

Back to Promenade, based upon the existing development, and the planned future condos in the area and other items, I think this will likely be a success and it's lifestyle theme will sit well in that wooded/natural location.

Many considerably smaller places than LR with lower per capita incomes supported Parisians and Macy's/Foley's in addition to Dillard's. I don't buy that. It wasn't a higher tier store than Dillard's, it's about the same.

That said, I wasn't really a fan of the merchandise Parisian carried when they opened. I looked around and my first thought was that I could see why Saks was selling the chain, this can't compete with Dillard's.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Many considerably smaller places than LR with lower per capita incomes supported Parisians and Macy's/Foley's in addition to Dillard's. I don't buy that. It wasn't a higher tier store than Dillard's, it's about the same.

That said, I wasn't really a fan of the merchandise Parisian carried when they opened. I looked around and my first thought was that I could see why Saks was selling the chain, this can't compete with Dillard's.

I've spent quite a bit of time in Parisian's. It's considerably higher end, especially in terms of average prices than any of the Dillards in the LR area. As for smaller places/lower per capita income supporting Parisian's...I'm sure you are correct. But that doesn't change the fact that people here aren't buying it. Each locale is has it's own culture. There are a few stores (considerably smaller) in the LR area with those types of prices, but nothing on the size scale of Parisian's. So, count me as unsurprised. Disappointed? Maybe, but not surprised. But, enough about this topic in this thread...this is about Promenade.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Back to Promenade, based upon the existing development, and the planned future condos in the area and other items, I think this will likely be a success and it's lifestyle theme will sit well in that wooded/natural location.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I've spent quite a bit of time in Parisian's. It's considerably higher end, especially in terms of average prices than any of the Dillards in the LR area. As for smaller places/lower per capita income supporting Parisian's...I'm sure you are correct. But that doesn't change the fact that people here aren't buying it. Each locale is has it's own culture. There are a few stores (considerably smaller) in the LR area with those types of prices, but nothing on the size scale of Parisian's. So, count me as unsurprised. Disappointed? Maybe, but not surprised. But, enough about this topic in this thread...this is about Promenade.

That Parisian isn't as nice as the Dillard's in Park Plaza and for the most part Parisian was a small market dept store. I really never thought the ones I went to were any nicer than Dillard's.

Again, though, I would wager every Parisian will be getting more and more lower tier merchandise. It's not part of the Belk's supply chain.

Am I missing something? They raped that site. If that's a precursor to the final product we can only be

grateful it's not a fuel farm or incinerator location. These guys are all hype and have serious issues in

credibility and delivery of promises in lots of previous deals.

I don't know much about RED but I do know Deltic Timber. I can't imagine that Deltic's sales contract with RED didn't exhaustively specify the materials to be used, types of tenants, and maintenance of the land. This is a tiny piece of the Chenal Valley development and Deltic wouldn't do anything to risk further sales of lots and development of new offices and commercial centers by allowing a shoddily built or unattractive development to occur. This is in a highly visible location and something done poorly could affect the nearby Country Club and remainging 1-2000 planned lots owned by Deltic. I am sure Deltic will be paying very careful attention to what's going on. Th real estate division (i.e. - Chenal) generates nearly all of the company's profits.

As for the clear-cutting, I would think it would have to be done to build that kind of shopping center on that parcel of land. That timberland was all pines anyway and leaving some pines intact makes little sense, they would look gangly and disproportionate to other landscaping. City regulations dictate there will have to be specified green space and trees and I hope that they choose attractive hardwood trees. I would hope it's not the same old dogwoods and bradford pears but that wouldn't surprise me.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

As for the clear-cutting, I would think it would have to be done to build that kind of shopping center on that parcel of land. That timberland was all pines anyway and leaving some pines intact makes little sense, they would look gangly and disproportionate to other landscaping. City regulations dictate there will have to be specified green space and trees and I hope that they choose attractive hardwood trees. I would hope it's not the same old dogwoods and bradford pears but that wouldn't surprise me.

Exactly correct and well said. The land here 1) has to be leveled out 2) contained scrub tree, not the type of tree that could/would support itself without it's surrounding trees. (Take a look at recent construction and the trees left on lots...they usually die because their whole life has been spent sheltered by surrounding trees...when you remove the whole canopy, the die) There's no good way to keep the trees, but the surrounding area will continue to be wooded for some time. Meanwhile, they will likely creating plantings/landscape upon completion. And I agree, it would be nice to see something other than the ever-present Bradford Pear.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Exactly correct and well said. The land here 1) has to be leveled out 2) contained scrub tree, not the type of tree that could/would support itself without it's surrounding trees. (Take a look at recent construction and the trees left on lots...they usually die because their whole life has been spent sheltered by surrounding trees...when you remove the whole canopy, the die) There's no good way to keep the trees, but the surrounding area will continue to be wooded for some time. Meanwhile, they will likely creating plantings/landscape upon completion. And I agree, it would be nice to see something other than the ever-present Bradford Pear.

That land was all Deltic Timber land used for logging for decades, it was planted with pines instead of hardwoods for that reason so it could be logged. Most of LR is covered in hardwoods but Deltic's land was planted with pines much like the lumber country of southern Arkansas. I remember before Chenal was built it was all logging roads out that way, we used to have bonfires out there in the woods in high school and we took our jeeps/SUVs messing around on all of those dirt logging roads.

Chenal Parkway was finished around 1993 or 1994, it's not that old.

Like you were saying, if you look at Chenal Valley's master plan there are to be numerous undeveloped wilderness areas left as is to preserve the feel of the area. Of course, parts of this are just too steep to easily develop.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

That land was all Deltic Timber land used for logging for decades, it was planted with pines instead of hardwoods for that reason so it could be logged. Most of LR is covered in hardwoods but Deltic's land was planted with pines much like the lumber country of southern Arkansas.

Like you were saying, if you look at Chenal Valley's master plan there are to be numerous undeveloped wilderness areas left as is to preserve the feel of the area. Of course, parts of this are just too steep to easily develop.

The issue is that RED is going to ask to build something that we will have to pay for

through their standard plea for "sales tax revenue bonds" to make up at least 30% of the budget.

Don't kid yourself and think that these guys are charitable non-resident absentee do gooders.

The developers and strategic retailers are only coming if they get huge perks, like low lease rates,

free sites, % ownership, and on and on. RED history is wait until D Day and then negotiate or they bail

and we get left with a lunar landscape site.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The issue is that RED is going to ask to build something that we will have to pay for

through their standard plea for "sales tax revenue bonds" to make up at least 30% of the budget.

Don't kid yourself and think that these guys are charitable non-resident absentee do gooders.

The developers and strategic retailers are only coming if they get huge perks, like low lease rates,

free sites, % ownership, and on and on. RED history is wait until D Day and then negotiate or they bail

and we get left with a lunar landscape site.

Lou, is that you?

Nobody in LR would ever go for publicly supporting development in West or especially far West LR. LR city council killed the Summit Mall rather than pay for the infrastructure upgrades around it, let alone bonds to support it. Chenal magnifies that - why in the world would the rest of the city subsidize commercial development at the city's wealthiest neighborhood?

I think the city would consider supporting midtown developments that way, and a bond was passed to support the renovation of the Hilton by Belz-Burrow. I'm sure some kind of public support for redevelopment of the university mall site would occur if it was developed by a group more ambitious and trustworthy than Simon.

Developers are doing this to line their own pockets, not to benefit us. This a premium site in an area with astronomically high incomes for the state and region, though traffic is moderate at this time for such a development.

I assume you are basing your assertions on previous developments by RED, so tell us about a few examples and describe those sites so we have a better idea. Were they urban or suburban projects?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

"I assume you are basing your assertions on previous developments by RED, so tell us about a few examples and describe those sites so we have a better idea. Were they urban or suburban projects?"

Quote from RED / Sparks, NV Chamber:

"RED Development's design for The Legends at Sparks Marina includes a minimum of 800,000 square feet of retail space and is estimated to cost up to $400 million. Because the project is designed to boost tourism, the recently approved STAR (Sales Tax Anticipated Revenue) bonds, a unique financing tool available for projects that have a positive impact on the region or state, will be utilized to fund the project. RED is also currently utilizing STAR bonds at the recently opened The Legends at Village West in Kansas City, Kansas, and most of their projects."

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

"I assume you are basing your assertions on previous developments by RED, so tell us about a few examples and describe those sites so we have a better idea. Were they urban or suburban projects?"

Quote from RED / Sparks, NV Chamber:

"RED Development's design for The Legends at Sparks Marina includes a minimum of 800,000 square feet of retail space and is estimated to cost up to $400 million. Because the project is designed to boost tourism, the recently approved STAR (Sales Tax Anticipated Revenue) bonds, a unique financing tool available for projects that have a positive impact on the region or state, will be utilized to fund the project. RED is also currently utilizing STAR bonds at the recently opened The Legends at Village West in Kansas City, Kansas, and most of their projects."

Yes, fine quote. But that just indicates that they use funding that they can negotiate. It's a far cry from the adandonment you suggest. Really, let's keep this from baseless fearmongering.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

"I assume you are basing your assertions on previous developments by RED, so tell us about a few examples and describe those sites so we have a better idea. Were they urban or suburban projects?"

Quote from RED / Sparks, NV Chamber:

"RED Development's design for The Legends at Sparks Marina includes a minimum of 800,000 square feet of retail space and is estimated to cost up to $400 million. Because the project is designed to boost tourism, the recently approved STAR (Sales Tax Anticipated Revenue) bonds, a unique financing tool available for projects that have a positive impact on the region or state, will be utilized to fund the project. RED is also currently utilizing STAR bonds at the recently opened The Legends at Village West in Kansas City, Kansas, and most of their projects."

1. Site preparation is well underway and they haven't asked for a dime.

2. As I said, we all know they wouldn't get it. Not for that site in LR. Someone else would buy that site and a similar development would go up in 5 years anyway.

3. Deltic has somewhere between $300-400 million in residential lots remaining to sell in Chenal Valley alone, plus a ton of commercial and office property. A large office park will be built caddycorner to this site and that land is larger and more expensive than the parcel RED bought. There's no way Deltic allows any hijinx to go on with their development.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If you read Arkansas Business news today, this project will be left with

no tenants based on the list(s) of players in Schakelford Crossing and

Pleasant Ridge......finito/nada. Why not just stop now.

What are you talking about?

Shackleford Crossing and Promenade aren't competing for the same tenants. Clary signed on big box, middle income stores that would be entirely out of place in Chenal. Pleasant Ridge and Promenade probably were competing and PRTC ended up being bailed on by most of the national retailers it wanted. I heard rumors (and architect actually saw the leasing diagram) which included a number of upscale tenants that clearly changed their mind and opted to go elsewhere. Right after that happened, Deltic and RED closed the sale of the land and it was cleared very quickly. I'm not positive Promenade signed on all of the tenants that dissed PRTC, we'll have to wait and see. Boy, the timing sure suggests that.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If you read Arkansas Business news today, this project will be left with

no tenants based on the list(s) of players in Schakelford Crossing and

Pleasant Ridge......finito/nada. Why not just stop now.

hmmm Im not seeing this at all. What tenants have these two centers stole from the Promenade??? There are plenty of speculative tenants to go in there that will not be locating at either of these shopping centers.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If you read Arkansas Business news today, this project will be left with

no tenants based on the list(s) of players in Schakelford Crossing and

Pleasant Ridge......finito/nada. Why not just stop now.

Here are few businesses that likely wouldn't even consider Shackleford Crossing but would fit in well at Midtowne, Pleasant Ridge or Promenade:

Apple Store, Brooks Brothers, Johnston & Murphy, Crate & Barrel

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Here are few businesses that likely wouldn't even consider Shackleford Crossing but would fit in well at Midtowne, Pleasant Ridge or Promenade:

Apple Store, Brooks Brothers, Johnston & Murphy, Crate & Barrel

That, and plenty more. As others have noted, Shackelford Crossing isn't a competing site, they serve different market segments. Someone posting on this board has an "agenda"... :rolleyes:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

That, and plenty more. As others have noted, Shackelford Crossing isn't a competing site, they serve different market segments. Someone posting on this board has an "agenda"... :rolleyes:

Is info2 Lou Shickel?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

after reading his previous post, there is a definite agenda towards RED

First, I'm not a he, and second I'm not lou s.

I'm just a concerned citizen that has done "some" research on this development and

had an opinion. It was based on information from friends in KC. I guess if you don't

follow the hype, you are an outcast. Very simplistically,............ if you try to calculate

how many tenants would be in 400K SF @ Promenade, I ( just me apparently) don't see how there's 40-75 other tenants out there.

If I'm wrong, so be it. The fact remains that that was a beautiful piece of tree canopy/ I will post no more .

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

First, I'm not a he, and second I'm not lou s.

I'm just a concerned citizen that has done "some" research on this development and

had an opinion. It was based on information from friends in KC. I guess if you don't

follow the hype, you are an outcast. Very simplistically,............ if you try to calculate

how many tenants would be in 400K SF @ Promenade, I ( just me apparently) don't see how there's 40-75 other tenants out there.

If I'm wrong, so be it. The fact remains that that was a beautiful piece of tree canopy/ I will post no more .

1. It wasn't tree canopy, there were no hardwoods and it was regularly cut and therefore was unable to develop a canopy. This was planted timberland, the natural mix of deciduous and evergreens in Arkansas hills was replaced by trees used in lumber and paper production on that piece of land. You see the same thing in the loggable parts of Chenal, though notably not on the steep parts such as Shinall Mtn where you have beautiful autumns.

I actually I find this MUCH less ecologically bothersome than the deforestation and destruction of hillsides that occurred at Shackleford Crossing and Pleasant Ridge. Not to mention the strip mall-ization of Hwy 10.

2. You don't have to calculate the number of tenants and it's not 75. The development is 340k SF. There's a lease plan on their website that's been published for a very long time. In fact, I think it was in Ark Business at one point. The plan was revised in Aug 2006 to exclude Dillard's.

Promenade at Chenal Site Plan

3. I kept an open mind but I asked you previously to elaborate on your claims and you haven't. Were you a regular poster here with some inside knowledge like architect, theman, or turboturtle I would seriously listen, I just find it interesting that you really haven't posted outside of this thread.

Most of us here don't "follow the hype". Frankly we tend to be more pro-Midtown development are a little surprised this development ever happened. None of us are convinced the location is ready for this kind of thing yet, it's a bit too far off the beaten path. Read back through some of the older posts about this and you'll see what I mean.

So here's your chance, spill the beans. Let's hear about why RED is going to develop this without tenants and how we'll get the raw deal on that. What's the scoop?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

First, I'm not a he, and second I'm not lou s.

I'm just a concerned citizen that has done "some" research on this development and

had an opinion. It was based on information from friends in KC. I guess if you don't

follow the hype, you are an outcast. Very simplistically,............ if you try to calculate

how many tenants would be in 400K SF @ Promenade, I ( just me apparently) don't see how there's 40-75 other tenants out there.

If I'm wrong, so be it. The fact remains that that was a beautiful piece of tree canopy/ I will post no more .

There are plenty of tenant opportunities for a development of this size. Frankly, this development isn't that large compared to many other proposals. I don't think anyone minds others with opinions, but your opinions bordered on statement of fact rather than opinion. Could this development fail? Sure, as could any of these projects, but the opportunity is ripe as well. As for the wooded area, all I can say is that this was in the plans for a long time, so something was going to happen there, and fortunately, Deltic has at least made SOME effort to keep wooded areas. As noted before, when RED is done, there will be plantings (as there always are in developments of this nature).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

By using this site you agree to our Terms of Use and Privacy Policy. We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue.