The Promenade At Chenal

[Aporkalypse]

The lack of a dept. store was (apparently) a deterrent to some retailers, from what I've heard.

Regardless, the point is that it is a relatively small development, and it is remote; I'm guessing Southlake Town Square is much larger, correct? If it could address one issue or the other, I'd have a much better feeling about its success.

Initially it a bit less retail space, 296,000 SF but it also had 204,000 SF of office space and 72,000 for town hall and a 22,000 SF post office - the total was 596,000. Phase III added another 175,000 SF of retail space and a bookstore, movie theatre, Hilton, etc. Not an astounding amount of retail space but it has nearly everything you would want in a market this size, including Cheesecake Factory, Crate & Barrel, Anthropologie, Sigrid Olsen, Apple Store, etc. Total now is only 475,000 SF of retail, yet (intentionally) still no department store.

The cool thing about that development was that you had a second level of offices above it - dentists, accountants, Sylvan Learning Center, a fitness center, etc, etc were above the ground level retail. The whole shopping center was designed to mimic an early 1900s downtown and it did an outstanding job of it. The Urban Land Institute named it the top development the year it was built.

In addition, it is not on the main freeways of DFW.

Since then it has fueled a second phase of several rows of brownstones adjacent to and many satellite shopping centers.

Check it out, www.southlaketownsquare.com.

Chenal is different, though. Throw in a performing arts venue and the post office and triple the area's population and you could pull something like this off. The income demographics are similar, however.

[Architect]

Initially it a bit less retail space, 296,000 SF but it also had 204,000 SF of office space and 72,000 for town hall and a 22,000 SF post office - the total was 596,000. Phase III added another 175,000 SF of retail space and a bookstore, movie theatre, Hilton, etc. Not an astounding amount of retail space but it has nearly everything you would want in a market this size, including Cheesecake Factory, Crate & Barrel, Anthropologie, Sigrid Olsen, Apple Store, etc. Total now is only 475,000 SF of retail, yet (intentionally) still no department store.

The cool thing about that development was that you had a second level of offices above it - dentists, accountants, Sylvan Learning Center, a fitness center, etc, etc were above the ground level retail. The whole shopping center was designed to mimic an early 1900s downtown and it did an outstanding job of it. The Urban Land Institute named it the top development the year it was built.

In addition, it is not on the main freeways of DFW.

Since then it has fueled a second phase of several rows of brownstones adjacent to and many satellite shopping centers.

Check it out, www.southlaketownsquare.com.

Chenal is different, though. Throw in a performing arts venue and the post office and triple the area's population and you could pull something like this off. The income demographics are similar, however.

Yes, I've been there several times - very nice. In my opinion, there is little to no comparison though between this and Chenal Promenade. Southlake is dogmatically mixed-use (which is great), and the big box dept. store wasn't used b/c the intent was to create a new city center. Chenal Promenade is just a nice shopping center in an upscale area of a smaller market. In many ways, Southlake is more similar to Park Avenue (multi-level, higher density, mixed use).

When you think about it (and I have thought a lot about this in recent years), Deltic was extremely short-sighted not to create a "Southlake" type of town center for Chenal. The Chenal Valley development, in my opinion, represents a wasted opportunity. Wouldn't it have been incredible had they developed a core grid of through-streets forming a town center with integral retail in mixed-use high density buildings, with decreasing density moving outward? The lack of foresight is almost mind-boggling.

[Aporkalypse]

Yes, I've been there several times - very nice. In my opinion, there is little to no comparison though between this and Chenal Promenade. Southlake is dogmatically mixed-use (which is great), and the big box dept. store wasn't used b/c the intent was to create a new city center. Chenal Promenade is just a nice shopping center in an upscale area of a smaller market. In many ways, Southlake is more similar to Park Avenue (multi-level, higher density, mixed use).

When you think about it (and I have thought a lot about this in recent years), Deltic was extremely short-sighted not to create a "Southlake" type of town center for Chenal. The Chenal Valley development, in my opinion, represents a wasted opportunity. Wouldn't it have been incredible had they developed a core grid of through-streets forming a town center with integral retail in mixed-use high density buildings, with decreasing density moving outward? The lack of foresight is almost mind-boggling.

I agree that I would've loved to see the Promenade site developed with a grander vision. Remember that Deltic didn't develop it themselves, RED did. What happened in Southlake was that the town, which is basically Sherwood or Cabot-sized, did not exist until quite recently. It's as far as anyone wants to commute, even by DFW standards. There was no post office, no city hall, nothing. Southlake actually passed a 1 cent sales tax to fund the development. In this town that would never fly, which is a shame. The town has profited enormously on it in terms of sales tax revenue and at this point the taxes help fund the community's roads and schools while its neighbors spend their dollars in Southlake. This could only have happened in Chenal were it a separate town, the analagous situation would be Maumelle in another 15-20 years if its demographics don't change.

I don't think Park Ave's a good comparison either because STS initially lacked a residential component and thus wasn't really mixed use and wasn't that dense, it was no taller than two stories. In addition, it was built in cow pasture. University Mall had a respectable pricetag, that land is too expensive to put in one story of retail and nothing else if you can squeeze more out of it. In fact the condos being built next to the new Bank of the Ozarks HQs are just as close as the STS brownstones.

I think it would be better had this site not been developed for another 5-10 years. The problem is had that happened, Col Glenn would probably have a new shopping center with many of the stores RED wanted for this development. What I am hoping is that Promenade at Chenal will provide a core for a lot of development around it. If a department store went in behind it I could see it filling up and upscale shopping centers going up across Rahling and LaGrande creating a nice retail district that wouldn't be too traffic-laden and should be pedestrian-friendly. Still, I'm with you on what could've been.

[LRguy21]

Lets say a RED developed the area behind The Promenade. And lets say there happened to be a Department store in the mix. What could go there that would want to go there? Im guessing, or at least the word on here is, that dillards will not go out west. Macys? maybe. Nordstorms, NO! a smaller Sacks, would love to see, but i dont think so. Maybe a smaller department store of some type. I have high hopes for this area. The condos going up next to the B.of O. headquaters will help out too. I still think an urban outfitters type store would go well in this area. I know lots of kids that have mommys and daddys money and buy expensive clothing that live in chenal. I hope this turns out to be a really nice shopping district. I dont want it to end up being spread out. It has to be dense. Maybe something on the other side of chenal on the N.E. corrner of Rhalling and Cheanl.

[bchris02]

Lets say a RED developed the area behind The Promenade. And lets say there happened to be a Department store in the mix. What could go there that would want to go there? Im guessing, or at least the word on here is, that dillards will not go out west. Macys? maybe. Nordstorms, NO! a smaller Sacks, would love to see, but i dont think so. Maybe a smaller department store of some type. I have high hopes for this area. The condos going up next to the B.of O. headquaters will help out too. I still think an urban outfitters type store would go well in this area. I know lots of kids that have mommys and daddys money and buy expensive clothing that live in chenal. I hope this turns out to be a really nice shopping district. I dont want it to end up being spread out. It has to be dense. Maybe something on the other side of chenal on the N.E. corrner of Rhalling and Cheanl.

Lets wait and see what happens after the recession. Anthropolgie and Urban Outfitters are likely but they are not in expanding mode because of the economy.

[Aporkalypse]

Lets wait and see what happens after the recession. Anthropolgie and Urban Outfitters are likely but they are not in expanding mode because of the economy.

Both of those stores, especially UO, are better fits for Park Avenue. Just my opinion.

[Architect]

Lets wait and see what happens after the recession. Anthropolgie and Urban Outfitters are likely but they are not in expanding mode because of the economy.

Newsflash...there is no recession, as of yet. But your point is well made none-the-less - the economy is in the doldrums.

[theman]

I'm surprised this hasn't been mentioned, unless I just over looked it. The Weekend section in this past Friday's paper showed an add that said that the Chenal 9 movie theater will open June 6th.

[Hyacinth]

Signage is up for DSW Shoes

[ArkansasTraveler]

I'm surprised this hasn't been mentioned, unless I just over looked it. The Weekend section in this past Friday's paper showed an add that said that the Chenal 9 movie theater will open June 6th.

Maybe this means I'll get to see Speed Racer in IMAX, after all.

[EJC]

Signage is up for DSW Shoes

That's actually been there for a while, but it's a bit hidden. I did see Coldwater Creek signage as well though.

[Aporkalypse]

Maybe this means I'll get to see Speed Racer in IMAX, after all.

Maybe Indiana Jones as well?

[adman0468]

I did see Coldwater Creek signage as well though.

Is that the sign that's barely visible across from DSW and down into the center a bit? I couldn't tell what it was. It looked green and white, with two lines of words.

[Aporkalypse]

Is that the sign that's barely visible across from DSW and down into the center a bit? I couldn't tell what it was. It looked green and white, with two lines of words.

It's in front right in the middle.

Boy, they are really going all out with the awnings, decorative trim, and roofing. I haven't seen this much detail in many newer developments I've ever seen in any metro.

[bchris02]

It's in front right in the middle.

Boy, they are really going all out with the awnings, decorative trim, and roofing. I haven't seen this much detail in many newer developments I've ever seen in any metro.

Do you think in the end this will shape up to be nicer than Pinnacle Hills Promenade?

[Architect]

Do you think in the end this will shape up to be nicer than Pinnacle Hills Promenade?

Chenal Promenade will never be as big, but its quite possible that it could become more exclusive/higher end.

Pinnacle Hills Promenade has quite a bit of momentum, and its mass doesn't hurt relating to traffic numbers, prominent/highly visible locale, etc.

[Architect]

It's in front right in the middle.

Boy, they are really going all out with the awnings, decorative trim, and roofing. I haven't seen this much detail in many newer developments I've ever seen in any metro.

Hopefully, its done in a tasteful manner. Its often too easy (or prevalent) for something to be overdone, and it results in a tacky development. I've noticed more Dryvit than I'd hoped to see, but that may just be prevalent on the backside, which is all you can really see...

[bchris02]

Chenal Promenade will never be as big, but its quite possible that it could become more exclusive/higher end.

Pinnacle Hills Promenade has quite a bit of momentum, and its mass doesn't hurt relating to traffic numbers, prominent/highly visible locale, etc.

True. Pinnacle Hills Promenade was the perfect development in the perfect place at the perfect time. If it wasn't for that, there would still be no competition between our retail selection and NWA's.

[Aporkalypse]

Do you think in the end this will shape up to be nicer than Pinnacle Hills Promenade?

It's already much nicer. I'd say it's even nicer than the original PHP which were scaled back to be less decorative and more typical. Now, it's not nearly as large but you won't have any anchors but you also won't see big box tenants like TJ Maxx or lower end tenants like Payless. The big box stuff that already exists in West LR takes up a lot of PHP.

[Aporkalypse]

True. Pinnacle Hills Promenade was the perfect development in the perfect place at the perfect time. If it wasn't for that, there would still be no competition between our retail selection and NWA's.

For whatever reasons it seems like the mega-shopping center that mixes lifestyle center with big box only happens in smaller markets. PHP fits that mold as does Turtle Creek in Jonesboro. Neither would work if there was any kind of adjacent market competition, everything had to be pinned to a single shopping center. This wouldn't work in LR, where the big box retail already exists nearby and there are multiple competing centers.

[bchris02]

For whatever reasons it seems like the mega-shopping center that mixes lifestyle center with big box only happens in smaller markets. PHP fits that mold as does Turtle Creek in Jonesboro. Neither would work if there was any kind of adjacent market competition, everything had to be pinned to a single shopping center. This wouldn't work in LR, where the big box retail already exists nearby and there are multiple competing centers.

I haven't been to PHP since they added the big box components. I would have to think it probably 'dumbs down' PHP so to say. If that is the case, I have no doubt Promenade at Chenal will be a nicer center.

[Aporkalypse]

I haven't been to PHP since they added the big box components. I would have to think it probably 'dumbs down' PHP so to say. If that is the case, I have no doubt Promenade at Chenal will be a nicer center.

In terms of materials used and appearance, it's already much nicer. The original PHP actually had domes and a lot of the features Chenal has, it just got watered down. I think competition with other new West LR shopping centers forced RED to spend more money than they actually had to and I would wager Deltic Timber had a lot of specifications about the center in their lease. They don't want a shoddily built development at the center of their community, where at least half of their commercial and residential lots are still to be developed and they still own the country club.

[EJC]

In terms of materials used and appearance, it's already much nicer. The original PHP actually had domes and a lot of the features Chenal has, it just got watered down. I think competition with other new West LR shopping centers forced RED to spend more money than they actually had to and I would wager Deltic Timber had a lot of specifications about the center in their lease. They don't want a shoddily built development at the center of their community, where at least half of their commercial and residential lots are still to be developed and they still own the country club.

While I like most of the design, I have to admit that I'm not really fond of the look of the stained glass. And I'm with Architect that I wish there was less dryvit. However, all in all, it still looks like a tremendous development - more appealing than anything else I've seen in Arkansas.

[Aporkalypse]

While I like most of the design, I have to admit that I'm not really fond of the look of the stained glass. And I'm with Architect that I wish there was less dryvit. However, all in all, it still looks like a tremendous development - more appealing than anything else I've seen in Arkansas.

That stained glass flower pattern that's in the logo and some of the windows of the shopping center doesn't appeal to me much either. It's kind of original, I never remember seeing something like that before but it just doesn't seem to fit as well as the developers thought it would.

[Architect]

That stained glass flower pattern that's in the logo and some of the windows of the shopping center doesn't appeal to me much either. It's kind of original, I never remember seeing something like that before but it just doesn't seem to fit as well as the developers thought it would.

You guys must have gotten close! Are you just driving around?