The Promenade At Chenal

[adman0468]

Comreguy, do you think this "hodge podge" is due to the lack of support from those in the local community or do you think it is caused by something else? I've often thought that there were a sufficient amount of high income households in Little Rock. But perhaps a rather big problem is that these households are all spread so far apart that we can never have a truly good location for a lifestyle center or a strong concentrated area for growth and development.

Personally, I think that the market is split between so many locations, that there is no one obvious choice for location. While companies looking to locate do plenty of research, I think people aren't as drawn to one particular area now. Just imagine if, for example, if the Promenade were never planned, how much easier it would be to attract tenants to Pleasant Ridge, which has had trouble attracting national names. Of course, if Summit Mall would have been built, most likely all of MidTowne's and Promenade's tenants would have ended up there. A major difference for the local scene. Better? Or worse? Not sure.

[LRU1967]

Personally, I think that the market is split between so many locations, that there is no one obvious choice for location. While companies looking to locate do plenty of research, I think people aren't as drawn to one particular area now. Just imagine if, for example, if the Promenade were never planned, how much easier it would be to attract tenants to Pleasant Ridge, which has had trouble attracting national names. Of course, if Summit Mall would have been built, most likely all of MidTowne's and Promenade's tenants would have ended up there. A major difference for the local scene. Better? Or worse? Not sure.

If the Summit Mall had been built Park Plaza would likely have become a failed mall.

[WLRDore]

If the Summit Mall had been built Park Plaza would likely have become a failed mall.

I definitely agree with this statement. On many levels, Park Plaza is already becoming or is a failed mall...in my opinion. Many of the stores that are in Park Plaza will now have stores in other locations in the city. Coldwater Creek is a perfect example. It makes one wonder what steps the Dillards will take if, in fact, Park Plaza becomes a ghost town. Many of the better stores will eventually spread themselves out across the better developments in Little Rock. Another area that may be of concern is the Bowman/Chenal intersection. With WalMart leaving eventually and some of the stores around it looking to relocate along with it, I wonder what will become of all this space.

[adman0468]

I definitely agree with this statement. On many levels, Park Plaza is already becoming or is a failed mall...in my opinion. Many of the stores that are in Park Plaza will now have stores in other locations in the city. Coldwater Creek is a perfect example. It makes one wonder what steps the Dillards will take if, in fact, Park Plaza becomes a ghost town. Many of the better stores will eventually spread themselves out across the better developments in Little Rock. Another area that may be of concern is the Bowman/Chenal intersection. With WalMart leaving eventually and some of the stores around it looking to relocate along with it, I wonder what will become of all this space.

I've wondered that, too. Will it change people's driving habits so much that a sizable amount of traffic disappears? I really think that the synergy of Target/Best Buy/Sam's/numerous chain restaurants will keep the area thriving with hardly any notable difference. There is a chance that some of these names could follow Wal-Mart over to developments near Shackleford Crossings, but I'm not too concerned about that right now.

Check back with me in three years. I may eat my words.

[bchris02]

I definitely agree with this statement. On many levels, Park Plaza is already becoming or is a failed mall...in my opinion. Many of the stores that are in Park Plaza will now have stores in other locations in the city. Coldwater Creek is a perfect example. It makes one wonder what steps the Dillards will take if, in fact, Park Plaza becomes a ghost town. Many of the better stores will eventually spread themselves out across the better developments in Little Rock. Another area that may be of concern is the Bowman/Chenal intersection. With WalMart leaving eventually and some of the stores around it looking to relocate along with it, I wonder what will become of all this space.

I hope you are wrong. You might be, being as NWA has no problem supporting the NWA mall corridor in Fayetteville as well as Pinnacle Hills. Plus, people in central LR and NLR/Sherwood/Jax will still drive to Park Plaza before they will drive all the way out to Chenal. Park Plaza is Little Rock's ONLY real shopping mall, so I hope it sticks around. All these new "lifestyle centers" are really just glorified strip malls.

Edited September 17, 2008 by bchris02

[Aporkalypse]

I definitely agree with this statement. On many levels, Park Plaza is already becoming or is a failed mall...in my opinion. Many of the stores that are in Park Plaza will now have stores in other locations in the city. Coldwater Creek is a perfect example. It makes one wonder what steps the Dillards will take if, in fact, Park Plaza becomes a ghost town. Many of the better stores will eventually spread themselves out across the better developments in Little Rock. Another area that may be of concern is the Bowman/Chenal intersection. With WalMart leaving eventually and some of the stores around it looking to relocate along with it, I wonder what will become of all this space.

I don't at all agree with this. Park Plaza underwent a recent upscale renovation and has kept a high level of tenants compared to most enclosed malls. It is pulling in enough adjacent retail it is creating a retail district in the vicinity. It will be just fine.

The danger to Park Plaza was 5-10 years ago when the Summit Mall was a real possiblity. Dillard's was going to open a store out West and most major retailers were planning to open. Perhaps there could've been duplication, but PP definitely would've been adversely affected. As it turns out it is still the dominant mall in the region.

[turboturtle]

I don't at all agree with this. Park Plaza underwent a recent upscale renovation and has kept a high level of tenants compared to most enclosed malls. It is pulling in enough adjacent retail it is creating a retail district in the vicinity. It will be just fine.

The danger to Park Plaza was 5-10 years ago when the Summit Mall was a real possiblity. Dillard's was going to open a store out West and most major retailers were planning to open. Perhaps there could've been duplication, but PP definitely would've been adversely affected. As it turns out it is still the dominant mall in the region.

We agree on this. Park Plaza gained by the demise of the Summit Mall proposal and the addition of Midtowne. It will be further enhanced with the addition of Park Avenue. Sears opted to stay put twice due to the new and future developments in Midtown. I would like to see more multi-family, along University Ave. to increase the population density in the midtown area.

Edited September 17, 2008 by turboturtle

[Architect]

I definitely agree with this statement. On many levels, Park Plaza is already becoming or is a failed mall...in my opinion. Many of the stores that are in Park Plaza will now have stores in other locations in the city. Coldwater Creek is a perfect example. It makes one wonder what steps the Dillards will take if, in fact, Park Plaza becomes a ghost town. Many of the better stores will eventually spread themselves out across the better developments in Little Rock. Another area that may be of concern is the Bowman/Chenal intersection. With WalMart leaving eventually and some of the stores around it looking to relocate along with it, I wonder what will become of all this space.

I wholeheartedly disagree. While a Summit Mall type of development WOULD have hurt Park Plaza, it didn't materialize, and as such, has left Park Plaza at the undisputed "summit" (pun intended) of high-end retail in Little Rock (such as it is). And as if that weren't enough, it was completely renovated into a stellar showplace - unquestionably the nicest enclosed mall in the state. And then we add Midtowne, and now Park Avenue to solidify not just Park Plaza proper, but establishing this corridor as the king of retail for the foreseeable future. Considering all this and looking back, I'm glad this is how it all worked out - I prefer this scenario of the rejuvenation of Park Plaza/fractured suburban developments as opposed to one, new larger development that would have killed a whole section of town (though it would have added clarity to the market for new retailers who are obviously confused).

As an aside, you infer that current midtown stores will "eventually spread themselves out across better developments in Little Rock"...there aren't any better developments in Little Rock, and there likely won't be for the foreseeable future. Promenade Chenal was the best shot anyone's going to take for 15 years, and in my opinion, it is not the peer of Park Plaza. Even if it was, it is not in a location to evolve into a "regional" center. Its also quite small, with no anchor department store and very little outparcels. I'm glad we have it, and I really hope it does well, but I don't see it on the same level as the Markham/University corridor.

[WLRDore]

I don't at all agree with this. Park Plaza underwent a recent upscale renovation and has kept a high level of tenants compared to most enclosed malls. It is pulling in enough adjacent retail it is creating a retail district in the vicinity. It will be just fine.

The danger to Park Plaza was 5-10 years ago when the Summit Mall was a real possiblity. Dillard's was going to open a store out West and most major retailers were planning to open. Perhaps there could've been duplication, but PP definitely would've been adversely affected. As it turns out it is still the dominant mall in the region.

I agree that Midtowne and Park Avenue (when it is built) supplement Park Plaza's viability as a successful mall. But I see many tenants choosing to be in other retail centers rather than be in Park Plaza. Apple is a good example. The recent renovation is nice and a much needed change from the old look of the mall. But I would have liked to see better tenants come along with the new renovation. So this is where most of my hesitation arises when others are optimistic about Park Plaza's future. For a long time, University Mall and Park Plaza coexisted but eventually Park Plaza became dominant...leading to University Mall's demise. When Park Avenue comes along, will this play out again to Park Plaza's favor? Aporkalypse has very good points. The surrounding retail may very well prop Park Plaza up. But I find myself visiting Park Plaza less and less because I just don't need to anymore when I can find everything in that mall somewhere else.

[LRU1967]

I agree that Midtowne and Park Avenue (when it is built) supplement Park Plaza's viability as a successful mall. But I see many tenants choosing to be in other retail centers rather than be in Park Plaza. Apple is a good example. The recent renovation is nice and a much needed change from the old look of the mall. But I would have liked to see better tenants come along with the new renovation. So this is where most of my hesitation arises when others are optimistic about Park Plaza's future. For a long time, University Mall and Park Plaza coexisted but eventually Park Plaza became dominant...leading to University Mall's demise. When Park Avenue comes along, will this play out again to Park Plaza's favor? Aporkalypse has very good points. The surrounding retail may very well prop Park Plaza up. But I find myself visiting Park Plaza less and less because I just don't need to anymore when I can find everything in that mall somewhere else.

You say you can "find everything in that mall somewhere else. If you want to go to a major department store where do you go?

[Architect]

But I find myself visiting Park Plaza less and less because I just don't need to anymore when I can find everything in that mall somewhere else.

First, there is very, very little "duplication" of the high-end Park Plaza/Mid Town retail stores that can be found elsewhere. You can start with Banana Republic, GAP, Eddie Bauer, Hollister, Ann Taylor, and move on through Williams-Sonoma, Pottery Barn, etc. The list is extensive.

Second, even if that were true, "somewhere else" may only be convenient from your perspective, or from residents in WLR (and maybe Maumelle) - but its not true for me, and certainly not for the many, many shoppers from out of town who come to Little Rock for their primary retail experience. The suburban retail scene is extremely diffuse - meaning one can't just go to one area/development/center (which has been acknowledged here extensively), and if Chenal Promendade is your reference, it is extremely inconvenient for the regional visitor.

However, I do think you make some valid points, in that the long term view for (any) mature area of town is less certain than for newer developments. I just don't think the current LR scene is a "glass is half-empty" scenario for the mature area that one might expect or find in many metro areas. In fact, its probably as good as it could possibly be at 45 years old.

[Aporkalypse]

I agree that Midtowne and Park Avenue (when it is built) supplement Park Plaza's viability as a successful mall. But I see many tenants choosing to be in other retail centers rather than be in Park Plaza. Apple is a good example. The recent renovation is nice and a much needed change from the old look of the mall. But I would have liked to see better tenants come along with the new renovation. So this is where most of my hesitation arises when others are optimistic about Park Plaza's future. For a long time, University Mall and Park Plaza coexisted but eventually Park Plaza became dominant...leading to University Mall's demise. When Park Avenue comes along, will this play out again to Park Plaza's favor? Aporkalypse has very good points. The surrounding retail may very well prop Park Plaza up. But I find myself visiting Park Plaza less and less because I just don't need to anymore when I can find everything in that mall somewhere else.

I don't. Shackleford Crossing and Pleasant Ridge don't really have places I shop, and unfortunately Promenade at Chenal isn't going to have much in terms of men's clothing. If I am going to buy clothes, etc and I'm not going cheap by going to Stein-Mart, etc I'll be at Park Plaza.

[WLRDore]

You say you can "find everything in that mall somewhere else. If you want to go to a major department store where do you go?

Belk is where many people go now if they want to go to a department store rather than going to the mall. I agree with Architect about the success of the University/Markham corridor given its age and recent developments in the area. However, 10 years ago or even 5 years ago, we wouldn't have seen JCPenney in something like Shackleford Crossing. I also agree that the current duplication of higher end stores is not as prevalent. However, if all of the stores in Promenade open as they say there are, this is likely to change to some degree. Other developments will begin to have tenants that PP does not. J.Jill, Apple, Newks, REI, and a list of others are not looking to be in Park Plaza. So I think over the next couple of years, duplication of higher end stores into other developments will grow. I also think that we'll see a growing number of stores in other developments that are not in Park Plaza.

Ultimately, Park Plaza will likely be around for a long time. But does anyone see the opportunity for the quality of PP tenants to begin to erode?

[theman]

Belk is where many people go now if they want to go to a department store rather than going to the mall. I agree with Architect about the success of the University/Markham corridor given its age and recent developments in the area. However, 10 years ago or even 5 years ago, we wouldn't have seen JCPenney in something like Shackleford Crossing. I also agree that the current duplication of higher end stores is not as prevalent. However, if all of the stores in Promenade open as they say there are, this is likely to change to some degree. Other developments will begin to have tenants that PP does not. J.Jill, Apple, Newks, REI, and a list of others are not looking to be in Park Plaza. So I think over the next couple of years, duplication of higher end stores into other developments will grow. I also think that we'll see a growing number of stores in other developments that are not in Park Plaza.

Ultimately, Park Plaza will likely be around for a long time. But does anyone see the opportunity for the quality of PP tenants to begin to erode?

If Dillard's didn't contol the two anchor spaces at Park Plaza or if there was space available, I really believe that JCPenny would have located at Park Plaza. I don't like the new JCPenney at Shackleford Crossing. It's smaller than the former University Mall store and does not have the selection that that store had. I've heard many people say this as well. When I go to JCPenney I go to the one at McCain mall.

Why Park Plaza will stay relevent is because of what Architect said, it has maintained a good mix of retailers and it has updated its property. Unlike University Mall, where Simon let it fade into oblivion, the owners of Park Plaza worked to keep Park Plaza the upscale place to shop in central Arkansas. There are stores that chose to go to Park Plaza even though the Promenade was being built. Forever 21 and ALDO comes to mind. Other developments will have tenants that Park Plaza doesn't have, but Park Plaza will have tenants that they don't have either.

[Aporkalypse]

Belk is where many people go now if they want to go to a department store rather than going to the mall. I agree with Architect about the success of the University/Markham corridor given its age and recent developments in the area. However, 10 years ago or even 5 years ago, we wouldn't have seen JCPenney in something like Shackleford Crossing. I also agree that the current duplication of higher end stores is not as prevalent. However, if all of the stores in Promenade open as they say there are, this is likely to change to some degree. Other developments will begin to have tenants that PP does not. J.Jill, Apple, Newks, REI, and a list of others are not looking to be in Park Plaza. So I think over the next couple of years, duplication of higher end stores into other developments will grow. I also think that we'll see a growing number of stores in other developments that are not in Park Plaza.

Ultimately, Park Plaza will likely be around for a long time. But does anyone see the opportunity for the quality of PP tenants to begin to erode?

For more than a decade, the plan was to move JC Penney's, Sears, Dillard's, and many other stores to the Shackleford Crossing site, then known as the Summit Mall. There are lots of reasons it didn't happen and most had more to do with the city of LR than Simon, who really wanted to build it. Had the city been overly development-friendly the Summit Mall would be 5-8 years old now.

[turboturtle]

For more than a decade, the plan was to move JC Penney's, Sears, Dillard's, and many other stores to the Shackleford Crossing site, then known as the Summit Mall. There are lots of reasons it didn't happen and most had more to do with the city of LR than Simon, who really wanted to build it. Had the city been overly development-friendly the Summit Mall would be 5-8 years old now.

True. The City has some responsibility in the demise of the Summit Mall plan. Ultimately it was Simon who failed to file the proper paperwork with the City in the 90s. There was staunch opposition to the Summit Mall in Little Rock and once they discovered that the Summit Mall plan was technically illegal, then it was the nail in the coffin.

Recall the City Planner at that time was Jim Lawson. When Simon didn't file their paperwork to extend a pre-Summit Mall plan for the site on time (early 90s), then the approved plan at that time expired. I believe there was some conditional zoning or something attached to the plan. Simon let it expire, not the City. Simon was required to start the planning process over. City Planner, Jim Lawson, made an error in judgment and let Simon act as if the plan had never expired. He testified on for Simon during the trial that Simon did file their paperwork. The City could never produce it. Jim Lawson resigned shortly after the trial.

I went to a lot of the City Board meetings during those days. The City gave Simon and Dillards ample opportunity to pursue the development. Simon and Dillard's were pompous beyond reason. They acted entitled, were not willing to negotiate and underestimated the opposition. The City would have to have been WAY overly development-friendly.

[Architect]

True. The City has some responsibility in the demise of the Summit Mall plan. Ultimately it was Simon who failed to file the proper paperwork with the City in the 90s. There was staunch opposition to the Summit Mall in Little Rock and once they discovered that the Summit Mall plan was technically illegal, then it was the nail in the coffin.

Recall the City Planner at that time was Jim Lawson. When Simon didn't file their paperwork to extend a pre-Summit Mall plan for the site on time (early 90s), then the approved plan at that time expired. I believe there was some conditional zoning or something attached to the plan. Simon let it expire, not the City. Simon was required to start the planning process over. City Planner, Jim Lawson, made an error in judgment and let Simon act as if the plan had never expired. He testified on for Simon during the trial that Simon did file their paperwork. The City could never produce it. Jim Lawson resigned shortly after the trial.

I went to a lot of the City Board meetings during those days. The City gave Simon and Dillards ample opportunity to pursue the development. Simon and Dillard's were pompous beyond reason. They acted entitled, were not willing to negotiate and underestimated the opposition. The City would have to have been WAY overly development-friendly.

As I mentioned recently in another post, looking back on it, I'm glad that the situation turned out as it did. I prefer midtown being reinvigorated/revitalized (as it has become) as opposed to the alternate where perhaps we would have a dominant new center (as opposed to the current disarray) BUT a declining midtown. In that scenario, something is lost. In reality, not so much.

[Aporkalypse]

As I mentioned recently in another post, looking back on it, I'm glad that the situation turned out as it did. I prefer midtown being reinvigorated/revitalized (as it has become) as opposed to the alternate where perhaps we would have a dominant new center (as opposed to the current disarray) BUT a declining midtown. In that scenario, something is lost. In reality, not so much.

I agree.

Part of what has always made LR a more vibrant city than many other mid-sized Southern cities is the preservation of the Heights, Hillcrest, and surrounding neighborhoods of the Cantrell and Markham corridors. You can drive from one side of the city to the other down Markham or Cantrell and never hit an unsafe or blighted area.

I live in Chenal and have no issues visiting Midtown areas for shopping, it never bothered me a bit. Growing up in Walton Heights it never bothered me, either. It's still basically 10 minutes.

[adman0468]

According to city plumbing permits, Francesca's Collections is opening a location in the Promenade. Have we heard of this one before? I guess the Midtowne location is doing good. Not my type of store, so I've never been in to check it out.

[adman0468]

Now, most of the stores that are coming soon to the Promenade have sign painted with their logos, so you can at least tell where they'll be (Talbot's, j.crew, Victoria's Secret, etc.).

There are enough that, with the ones already open, it will seem like a fairly full center by spring.

Of course, I wonder if the worsening economy means that these spring openings will be pushed back again.

[LRU1967]

Now, most of the stores that are coming soon to the Promenade have sign painted with their logos, so you can at least tell where they'll be (Talbot's, j.crew, Victoria's Secret, etc.).

There are enough that, with the ones already open, it will seem like a fairly full center by spring.

Of course, I wonder if the worsening economy means that these spring openings will be pushed back again.

Is there one for Apple?

[adman0468]

Is there one for Apple?

Nope.

[Architect]

Nope.

Let's hope the recent tips about the Little Rock Apple store construction starting in January and opening in March is still on track. To that end, here is an interesting article on AppleInsider that speculates how the economy might affect Apple's planned store openings:

http://www.appleinsider.com/articles/08/10...il_in_2009.html

"If Apple does decide to slow down, fate has offered them the right time to do it. Typically, the largest number of stores is scheduled to open during the period from June to December, since that coincides with the company's back-to-school and holiday store promotions. Right now, Apple's planning team is working on the slowest period for stores openings, the first half of next year, which typically represents just 30 percent of grand openings.

So, a decision made now to slow down store expansion would affect fewer projects that have already been given the green light. That would result in less costs associated with delaying or canceling the projects.

Financially, Apple has never skimped on funding the stores through the years. Capital expenditures have increased each year, reaching $294 million for fiscal 2008. The company's lease commitments for the stores reached a substantial $1.3 billion at the end of the last quarter. With a huge cash reserve, funding new store construction and signing long-term store leases doesn't seem to be much of a liability for Apple.

Lastly, Apple has very sophisticated systems for analyzing real estate locations, revenue and store visitors. It would not be difficult to create "success" forecasts for each store that's now in the planning process, and to predict its level of profitability, even in the face of a consumer buying downturn."

From http://www.ifoapplestore.com/stores/chrono...l#futurestores:

"Promenade at Chenal - Little Rock (AR) - A new 330,000 square-foot, open-air lifestyle center being built by RED Development on the city's west side. The architecture is French gothic, and the tenant list includes common Apple neighbors. Mall scheduled to open Spring 2008. Tenant listed posted May 2007 with "Apple" listed. In Nov. 2007 Apple filed for a plumbing permit, indicating construction could soon be underway. Job listings posted Jan. 8, 2008. But in May, 2008 tipster says that Apple has not signed a lease and are looking at other locations."

[Architect]

Yet another consideration on a Little Rock Apple location...there's (surprisingly) now a Jackson, MS location:

http://www.apple.com/retail/renaissanceatcolonypark/

It's really inconceivable that they've sidestepped this market until now, though I understand the availability of the proper development is the primary driver, and of course now the economy may be weighing heavy on all fronts....

And for what it's worth, this development in Jackson is pretty impressive (includes residential, hotels, etc.):

http://www.renaissanceatcolonypark.com/

Again, evidence that the market in LR fractured too much into too many watered down developments.

[turboturtle]

Yet another consideration on a Little Rock Apple location...there's (surprisingly) now a Jackson, MS location:

http://www.apple.com/retail/renaissanceatcolonypark/

It's really inconceivable that they've sidestepped this market until now, though I understand the availability of the proper development is the primary driver, and of course now the economy may be weighing heavy on all fronts....

And for what it's worth, this development in Jackson is pretty impressive (includes residential, hotels, etc.):

http://www.renaissanceatcolonypark.com/

Again, evidence that the market in LR fractured too much into too many watered down developments.

I think we forget how small we are. Our sparsely located developments are counterproductive. With the economic slow down, it may be a decade for the residential growth to catch-up to all the new commercial development in Chenal. I had a realtor tell me that he's seen folks wanting to move from Chenal east into Pleasant Valley. I know of a former neighbor, who happens to be a realtor, that moved to Chenal 4 years ago and wants to move back into midtown. This is anecdotal.

There was, however, a news article I read recently about the last subdivision that Deltic opened up for bids. It used to be that all the lots sold the first day or week. In this subdivision, Deltic is having hard time selling them. The article was critical of Deltic. The article reported that Deltic used to wait until there was some pent-up demand for new property out west, now they open new subdivisions before there is demand for them. Did anyone see this?