The Promenade At Chenal

[adman0468]

Sadly, I guess they lost that focus. Went today for Mother's Day and it was terrible. I was not told when I made reservations the menu would not be available - only a buffet. A very lame, typical, dried out buffet. Nothing like a hotel quality bufftet for $150 to make you feel you would have enjoyed better cuisine at McDonalds. What is wrong with Little Rock? The approach restaurants have to special holidays (Mother

[LRguy21]

American Eagle seems to be open now. What else is open or about to open? Nobody seems to know whats going on at this center. I want the inside scoop.

[bchris02]

American Eagle seems to be open now. What else is open or about to open? Nobody seems to know whats going on at this center. I want the inside scoop.

This entire shopping center has been a disaster that I am beginning to think should have never been built. The IMAX could have located elsewhere as Little Rock is completely devoid of theaters inside the 30/430 loop. Being that most major tenants who initially committed to this development have pulled out, I don't see it becoming anything more than an empty shopping center in the near future. Population density is reletively low out there despite the high income. Little Rock has one more chance with Park Avenue to build a shopping center and get it right. Giving the track record of people here being content with mediocrity my hopes aren't too high.

[adman0468]

This entire shopping center has been a disaster that I am beginning to think should have never been built. The IMAX could have located elsewhere as Little Rock is completely devoid of theaters inside the 30/430 loop. Being that most major tenants who initially committed to this development have pulled out, I don't see it becoming anything more than an empty shopping center in the near future. Population density is reletively low out there despite the high income. Little Rock has one more chance with Park Avenue to build a shopping center and get it right. Giving the track record of people here being content with mediocrity my hopes aren't too high.

I do think the center it too far out there (too far from an interstate, actually) to ever attract people from far away in great numbers. But the economy has kept the center from getting any momentum whatsoever. Stores are still trickling in and, as long as that continues, traffic should increase. The key will be once leases for the original stores start expiring. Will they renew? I guess we'll know in a year or so, assuming everyone had two year leases.

[bchris02]

I do think the center it too far out there (too far from an interstate, actually) to ever attract people from far away in great numbers. But the economy has kept the center from getting any momentum whatsoever. Stores are still trickling in and, as long as that continues, traffic should increase. The key will be once leases for the original stores start expiring. Will they renew? I guess we'll know in a year or so, assuming everyone had two year leases.

It might eventually be a place for local boutiques ala Pleasant Ridge. If things continue as is, my guess would be the few stores that have opened will throw in the towel. I also think the prospect of Park Avenue is causing many of the original retailers to rethink opening in the Promenade, just like the Promenade plan killed Pleasant Ridge, and so on.

Edited May 11, 2009 by bchris02

[Architect]

This entire shopping center has been a disaster that I am beginning to think should have never been built. The IMAX could have located elsewhere as Little Rock is completely devoid of theaters inside the 30/430 loop. Being that most major tenants who initially committed to this development have pulled out, I don't see it becoming anything more than an empty shopping center in the near future. Population density is reletively low out there despite the high income. Little Rock has one more chance with Park Avenue to build a shopping center and get it right. Giving the track record of people here being content with mediocrity my hopes aren't too high.

Well, I wouldn't call it a disaster by any means (it's only been open about 6 months), but I do concur that it will never be a significant player due to its size and its remote location.

I agree that many common citizens (dare I say "consumers") in Little Rock have little expectations in the way of architecture/quality of development, etc., but the resultant product is the responsibility of the developer - and in any case, this is not a good example to make that point. This is one of the nicer developments, along with Midtowne, which is very tasteful/elegant. Shackleford and Pleasant Ridge? Not so much.

[LRguy21]

The sad thing is every time I pass the center, it looks busy. I don't know why, perhaps the movie theater. But obviously people will go. It will eventually come together. Maybe minus the big names (Apple, Dicks, etc.) But it will come together. The people that live in the WLR area of Chenal Valley will shop their. I know i would, but only if it comes together.

Im waiting on more things to open.

[Architect]

The sad thing is every time I pass the center, it looks busy. I don't know why, perhaps the movie theater. But obviously people will go. It will eventually come together. Maybe minus the big names (Apple, Dicks, etc.) But it will come together. The people that live in the WLR area of Chenal Valley will shop their. I know i would, but only if it comes together.

Im waiting on more things to open.

I think it will end up being a very nice (local) development. Certainly, the quality of the built structures - while not being my favorite by any stretch - is very nice, and the demographics will certainly bolster its success. I think both its remoteness (from freeways) and its lack of size/scale will render it a niche player. I think it had or has the potential to expand west to the property behind - which might have been under consideration had the development had a strong start and the market had not tanked.

[Village Ant]

Well, I wouldn't call it a disaster by any means (it's only been open about 6 months), but I do concur that it will never be a significant player due to its size and its remote location.

I agree that many common citizens (dare I say "consumers") in Little Rock have little expectations in the way of architecture/quality of development, etc., but the resultant product is the responsibility of the developer - and in any case, this is not a good example to make that point. This is one of the nicer developments, along with Midtowne, which is very tasteful/elegant. Shackleford and Pleasant Ridge? Not so much.

I wouldn't know what qualifies as a good example of architecture, but I actually prefer Pleasant Ridge to the Promenade, and Midtowne. In addition to being very poorly implemented business-wise -- and I dare to believe that this is still more important than the architecture involved -- the Promenade seems too small and boring. Maybe this will change when it's full, but right now it just seems cold and lacking any character. With all of the land they seem to have, I've often wondered why Red didn't build a small park around it (or within it!) that might bring people to it. To be honest, I've questioned this development ever since Dillards pulled out and most of the reasons why have nothing to do with the location.

Midtowne is nice for what it is, but it's really small, and like every shopping center in Little Rock, it too lacks character or anything that's specific and interesting.

Like I said, I wouldn't know what qualifies as a good example of architecture, but I think that Pleasant Ridge at least looks decent, and more importantly, it has a little character to it. I like how it sits on the hill and is more open than the rest (i.e. offering better views.) Walking through the center is actually enjoyable, which is more than I can say about all of it's competitors, with the possible exception of Park Plaza. I'm sure that it doesn't begin to hold a candle to great developments in other cities, but for the small center that it is, I consider it pretty nice for Little Rock.

Shackleford Crossing actually reminds me of the Promenade, but without the grander visions and implemented somewhat better. I could actually see it becoming fairly nice eventually and then I remember that Wal-mart will someday open there. And that's when the nightmares concerning overcrowded, trashy parking lots and regular gun shootings begin. It will be interesting to see what happens to Shackleford Crossing after Wal-mart opens, but it won't surprise me if many of the better retailers pull out shortly afterward. I suspect that this is an experimental development and one that I wouldn't bet on working out as planned.

I don't know what to make of Park Avenue, but the plan so far hasn't been very impressive. I have the feeling that there actually is no true vision for it and that expectations are shrinking as I type.

Btw, what ever happened to the proposed shopping centers at Colonel Glenn on 430 and the one near the 430/30 interchange?

Edited May 18, 2009 by Village Ant

[Architect]

I wouldn't know what qualifies as a good example of architecture, but I actually prefer Pleasant Ridge to the Promenade, and Midtowne. In addition to being very poorly implemented business-wise -- and I dare to believe that this is still more important than the architecture involved -- the Promenade seems too small and boring. Maybe this will change when it's full, but right now it just seems cold and lacking any character. With all of the land they seem to have, I've often wondered why Red didn't build a small park around it (or within it!) that might bring people to it. To be honest, I've questioned this development ever since Dillards pulled out and most of the reasons why have nothing to do with the location.

Midtowne is nice for what it is, but it's really small, and like every shopping center in Little Rock, it too lacks character or anything that's specific and interesting.

Like I said, I wouldn't know what qualifies as a good example of architecture, but I think that Pleasant Ridge at least looks decent, and more importantly, it has a little character to it. I like how it sits on the hill and is more open than the rest (i.e. offering better views.) Walking through the center is actually enjoyable, which is more than I can say about all of it's competitors, with the possible exception of Park Plaza. I'm sure that it doesn't begin to hold a candle to great developments in other cities, but for the small center that it is, I consider it pretty nice for Little Rock.

Shackleford Crossing actually reminds me of the Promenade, but without the grander visions and implemented somewhat better. I could actually see it becoming fairly nice eventually and then I remember that Wal-mart will someday open there. And that's when the nightmares concerning overcrowded, trashy parking lots and regular gun shootings begin. It will be interesting to see what happens to Shackleford Crossing after Wal-mart opens, but it won't surprise me if many of the better retailers pull out shortly afterward. I suspect that this is an experimental development and one that I wouldn't bet on working out as planned.

I don't know what to make of Park Avenue, but the plan so far hasn't been very impressive. I have the feeling that there actually is no true vision for it and that expectations are shrinking as I type.

Btw, what ever happened to the proposed shopping centers at Colonel Glenn on 430 and the one near the 430/30 interchange?

Certainly I wouldn't argue what you like or don't like - everyone has an opinion, but I think Pleasant Ridge is by far the worst of the four...

First, because of its planning. It's just a shopping center...a parking lot surrounded by (poorly designed) buildings. There is no sense of place at all, and I, for one, am off-put by this kind of development. Second - as I've alluded, the architecture is poorly executed - badly proportioned and bland materials. It's not horrible, but if my experience is half parking lot (or more), the buildings should be something special, and they are not.

The Promenade is polar opposite in both respects. First, though I cringe because it is clearly contrived, they've created a sense of place by creating narrow boulevards with minimal parking - so as one shops, the experience is mainly the shops, not a parking lot - like walking down a narrower shopping street. Second, and this is debatable, the architecture - also contrived - clearly uses nicer materials, alternating forms and proportions, and without question seems much more upscale than Pleasant Ridge.

The other two are a mix...

Shackleford wisely goes the route of better planning with the shopping street experience (primary parking on the perimeter), while the architecture is more subdued, but certainly tasteful.

Midtown didn't (perhaps couldn't) go the route of the centralized shopping experience with the parking on the perimeter, but the architecture - while very simple using very muted colors, is perhaps the most elegant of all of the shopping centers.

They all have their upside.

[Village Ant]

Certainly I wouldn't argue what you like or don't like - everyone has an opinion, but I think Pleasant Ridge is by far the worst of the four...

First, because of its planning. It's just a shopping center...a parking lot surrounded by (poorly designed) buildings. There is no sense of place at all, and I, for one, am off-put by this kind of development. Second - as I've alluded, the architecture is poorly executed - badly proportioned and bland materials. It's not horrible, but if my experience is half parking lot (or more), the buildings should be something special, and they are not.

The Promenade is polar opposite in both respects. First, though I cringe because it is clearly contrived, they've created a sense of place by creating narrow boulevards with minimal parking - so as one shops, the experience is mainly the shops, not a parking lot - like walking down a narrower shopping street. Second, and this is debatable, the architecture - also contrived - clearly uses nicer materials, alternating forms and proportions, and without question seems much more upscale than Pleasant Ridge.

The other two are a mix...

Shackleford wisely goes the route of better planning with the shopping street experience (primary parking on the perimeter), while the architecture is more subdued, but certainly tasteful.

Midtown didn't (perhaps couldn't) go the route of the centralized shopping experience with the parking on the perimeter, but the architecture - while very simple using very muted colors, is perhaps the most elegant of all of the shopping centers.

They all have their upside.

Thanks for the insightful reply Architect.

Not knowing much about quality building materials or design aesthetics, I might have assumed that you had Pleasant Ridge and the Promenade mixed up, if I didn't already know better, that is. From my perspective, Pleasant Ridge has this "sense of place" that I think is missing with the Promenade.

I completely agree that Pleasant Ridge is "just a shopping center". The thing is that I don't see the Promenade as anything more than just a shopping center either, and even worse, as you said first, it's clearly contrived. When I look at the two centers from afar, I see interesting lines within Pleasant Ridge, but with the Promenade, I only see a square development in the middle of a large parking lot. The design just looks very boring to me.

Midtowne may very well be the most elegant of them all, but the muted colors come across to me as something that's very conservative, boring and about 20 years too late. It's not that I don't find it somewhat attractive, but I also find it somewhat depressing and a not very engaging experience. Having said that, I still consider Midtowne to be pretty nice for the small shopping center that it is, which is pretty much the same attitude I have with Pleasant Ridge. The Promenade, however, is a development that I believe we should have expected more from and thus far it hasn't even lived up to the expectations of the others.

As for the narrow boulevards within the Promenade, all I can conjure up are images of trying to find a space in a large parking lot and then having to walk across it, through traffic, to reach those narrow boulevards. Whether you'll really have to walk that far from shop to shop at Pleasant Ridge, or I'll have to walk that far just to reach the shops at the Promenade, I'm not sure, but that is the unappealing image I have of the Promenade, whereas I can say that I haven't found walking through Pleasant Ridge to be the least bit pedestrian unfriendly. I haven't actually had any pedestrian unfriendly experiences at the Promenade yet either, but I expect that to change when/if more stores open there and traffic increases.

[adman0468]

Thanks for the insightful reply Architect.

Not knowing much about quality building materials or design aesthetics, I might have assumed that you had Pleasant Ridge and the Promenade mixed up, if I didn't already know better, that is. From my perspective, Pleasant Ridge has this "sense of place" that I think is missing with the Promenade.

I completely agree that Pleasant Ridge is "just a shopping center". The thing is that I don't see the Promenade as anything more than just a shopping center either, and even worse, as you said first, it's clearly contrived. When I look at the two centers from afar, I see interesting lines within Pleasant Ridge, but with the Promenade, I only see a square development in the middle of a large parking lot. The design just looks very boring to me.

Midtowne may very well be the most elegant of them all, but the muted colors come across to me as something that's very conservative, boring and about 20 years too late. It's not that I don't find it somewhat attractive, but I also find it somewhat depressing and a not very engaging experience. Having said that, I still consider Midtowne to be pretty nice for the small shopping center that it is, which is pretty much the same attitude I have with Pleasant Ridge. The Promenade, however, is a development that I believe we should have expected more from and thus far it hasn't even lived up to the expectations of the others.

As for the narrow boulevards within the Promenade, all I can conjure up are images of trying to find a space in a large parking lot and then having to walk across it, through traffic, to reach those narrow boulevards. Whether you'll really have to walk that far from shop to shop at Pleasant Ridge, or I'll have to walk that far just to reach the shops at the Promenade, I'm not sure, but that is the unappealing image I have of the Promenade, whereas I can say that I haven't found walking through Pleasant Ridge to be the least bit pedestrian unfriendly. I haven't actually had any pedestrian unfriendly experiences at the Promenade yet either, but I expect that to change when/if more stores open there and traffic increases.

I see Architect's point regarding the narrow space between the rows of buildings that the Promenade has. If you view the Promenade's layout as that of an enclosed mall, but one that allows you to drive through the middle of it (and even park near the store when the center isn't busy), then its layout is ideal. And even conjures up the feel of an old Main Street (work with me, here).

Pleasant Ridge and Midtowne both have strip center feels to their layout. Wide parking lots between the rows make it awkward to park once and shop the entire place. The car still feels superior to the pedestrian there.

Regarding materials, I think the simplicity of Midtown could be elegant, and Pleasant Ridge's brick certainly evokes quality. But the way the Promenade breaks up its buildings with uneven facades, make it feel the most 'Main Street'-like.

Edited May 21, 2009 by adman0468

[Architect]

Hey guys - thanks for the responses. Again, my comments were merely my opinion, and I respect your perspectives as well.

Regarding Pleasant Ridge, I do think that it turned out nicer than I expected, and my comments were merely relative to the other new centers. I guess I am biased against it because I'm just not enthused about a parking lot surrounded by a pretend "village" (granted, Promenade and Shackleford Crossing's are pretend villages as well, but at least they segregated the parking and attempted to create a better environment for shopping) AND due to the fact that Lou Schickel (the developer) lost any credibility - not only as a developer, but as a decent human being - when he bought a lot in the middle of the Mid Town development and refused to sell...one of the reasons that project was delayed a minimum of five years.

Oh, and adman: did you mean to say "Pleasant Ridge and Midtown both have strip center feels to their layout." in lieu of the Promenade?

[adman0468]

Oh, and adman: did you mean to say "Pleasant Ridge and Midtown both have strip center feels to their layout." in lieu of the Promenade?

Yep. Corrected. Thanks.

[Village Ant]

I'd forgotten about the parking in the middle at the Promenade. That makes it more appealing, but I still don't like the large parking lot surrounding it, which may be where I differ somewhat from you two.

See, when I look at Pleasant Ridge, I don't see a large parking lot and I don't find the stores that far apart either. The stores probably are closer together at the Promenade, but it doesn't seem like enough to make much difference and it comes at the cost of a large parking lot. Maybe I'm the only one who receives these vibes, but I'm just being honest here. I'm sure that Architect is right about the Promenade being better constructed, using better materials, and using better architectural styles (Besides not being qualified, I really haven't paid enough attention here), but I think the main reason why I like Pleasant Ridge is due to the layout. I realize that it's simple, but from my perspective, it doesn't have the eyesore of a large parking lot that the Promenade has and I think that it's made better use of the surrounding landscape.

As for Lou Schickel, I completely understand the resentment with his past actions, but I've been focusing completely on the centers and not who built or owns them. Buying that lot (or was it lots?) in the middle of Midtowne was pretty low, and seemingly inexcusable, although I bet it was a smart move business-wise for Pleasant Ridge. When it comes to the Promenade, anyway, I'm not too big on Red, either, as they seem like big out-of-town developers who are out of touch with Little Rock. If the Promenade meant much to Red, my guess is that it would be more successful right now, but that's just speculation.

Mostly I'm just adding my 2 cents to an interesting discussion here, though. I, too, am frustrated by the lack of any special stores in Little Rock and forums like this seem like a good way to throw ideas around. I'm really disappointed that J.Crew seems to have pulled out of the Promenade and frustrated by having to drive elsewhere to shop.

[adman0468]

An ad in today's paper for the Promenade announces a concert series that they're having this summer. The first one is tomorrow night. The interesting part of the ad was that it said DSW would open in late July. If this is true, I think it could be a momentum builder for the center. It should be a high traffic store and is new to Arkansas. Whether that will be enough to get the other stores that are announced, but dormant to open, I'm not so sure. Guess we'll see.

[Architect]

An ad in today's paper for the Promenade announces a concert series that they're having this summer. The first one is tomorrow night. The interesting part of the ad was that it said DSW would open in late July. If this is true, I think it could be a momentum builder for the center. It should be a high traffic store and is new to Arkansas. Whether that will be enough to get the other stores that are announced, but dormant to open, I'm not so sure. Guess we'll see.

Didn't know where to put this (guess we should start a "general" Lifestyle Center post), but since this relates most to the Promenade:

While traveling a few weeks ago, I had opportunity to stop in Jackson, MS and travel up to the new Renaissance at Colony Park. Let me just say that I was VERY impressed during my short (admittedly drive-through) visit. This center is technically in Ridgeland, MS - the growing north, affluent suburb. The developer - rightly so - located the center just a half mile north of the I-55/I-220 interchange - a major (the major? not really much of an interstate/freeway network in Jackson) traffic center - very high visibility. The center was VERY nice...very high quality, with stores such as Apple, Antropologie, Banana Republic, Fresh Market, P.F. Changs, etc...

This center - to me - was noticeably nicer than Promenade. It had a taller, more vertical scale to it. Nicer finishes, landscaping, fountains, and it was paired (I think this is key) with other high visibility, high profile projects such as a Hyatt Place hotel, an 18 story office building, etc. It was just a lot more substantial development overall with high visibility. The interesting comparison with the Promenade is that IT HAS NO ANCHOR STORES.

Again, overall I was quite impressed with the quality of the development, the high-profile shops, and the overall feel. Certainly, this is another good example of a very nice development - THE GO-TO NO COMPARISON CHOICE - for the area, which sold the national retailers...trumping the market itself, which, while comparable to Little Rock, is arguably not as lucrative in size, income, etc. Very nice Jackson!

p.s. On the other hand...Jackson's downtown?! Yikes...not only is nothing happening, but there's absolutely no scale to the skyline. Very unimpressive. No comparison to Little Rock in any shape, form or fashion. In fact, I've been to cities half Jackson's size with more impressively scaled downtowns. Jackson grew quite rapidly in the 60's, 70's and even 80's...where was all the commerce/development? Strange.

[LIT uPP]

The two developments mentioned in recent posts - Renaissance at Colony Park in Ridgeland, MS and the Short Pump Mall in Short Pump, VA

[Architect]

The two developments mentioned in recent posts - Renaissance at Colony Park in Ridgeland, MS and the Short Pump Mall in Short Pump, VA

[LIT uPP]

LIT uPP...

Interesting observations. However, I'm confused by a couple of your points:

1 - In what way is Chenal a double-edged sword for Little Rock? You stated that it has - perhaps single-handedly - become THE (new) high-income demographic area in the MSA (true)...and not just for Pulaski County, but for Little Rock proper (true). So, the debate about the merits of suburban sprawl notwithstanding, what's the drawback exactly?

2 - The Summit Mall project was PRINCIPALLY - far and away - embattled by the LOCAL neighborhood of Twin Lakes!!! They were the one's making the most noise and filing lawsuits!! Certainly, there were others in other parts of town that objected to it, but they weren't the principal noise-makers.

3 - In what way do you think that the city of Little Rock inhibited the development of retail as opposed to your assumption that "local political atmosphere would have welcomed such a development with open arms" in Benton and Bryant? I believe the city of LR went out of its way to grant approval to the Summit development. It was citizen activists that brought down Simon the giant. If the city of LR were such a stumbling block, then I doubt FOUR other new lifestyle centers would have located within the city limits...which in and of itself is pretty amazing (yet also, pretty disappointing...THIS is the double-edged sword my friend...we didn't need even two, much less FOUR!). But maybe this just validates point 1 above.

4 - Having all of the retail development in the city is a phenomenal feat. IS A GREAT THING!!! Per your last statement, if the high-end retail in the MSA consists of a high-end center in a new, upscale area of the city AND revitalized mid-town area, then I wouldn't have it any other way.

I do completely agree though with your observations that LR has managed to keep - without much challenge - the premier high-income developments of the whole MSA. I just don't understand what the downside is that your post seems to convey. Maybe I'm misreading it...

Architect,

My apologies for the lack of clarity on the use of

[Architect]

Architect,

My apologies for the lack of clarity on the use of “double-edged sword.” Like you, I believe having Chenal within the city limits of Little Rock is completely positive. It provides a growth engine and a tax base that many core cities would love to have. Thus, they shrink while we grow.

I suppose what I should have said is this: For those who wish the Little Rock MSA had a super-regional retail complex (that go-to center where lots of major national retailers would obviously locate), we could have easily had one if all those Chenal residents had moved to a newly developing suburb along an interstate – such as Bryant. Most (not all) large retail developments are built these days in suburban areas where the socio-economic demographics are very attractive for such developments and usually near interstates. Uproot all those Chenal residents and settle them in Bryant over the past twenty years, and we would most likely have seen a super-regional mall/lifestyle center somewhere along I-30, ten years ago.

My own observations are that developers build major shopping centers if three main factors exist:

1. Location. Location. Location. Easily accessible and highly visible.

2. A large enough population of higher income earners within X number of miles to make the retailers want to locate in the development.

3. A receptive political climate. I suppose a better way to put this is: a welcoming community – one that collectively supports a large new development.

I’m sure there are other factors that have an impact on a developer’s decision, but these are the biggest.

Using the above factors as a gauge, I don’t know of any part of the Little Rock MSA that currently provides all three. As you have previously noted in this thread, the Promenade is rather isolated from a great number of potential consumers. Nowhere close to an interstate, it is neither easily accessible nor highly visible. Furthermore, Chenal’s population – while sizable – is not large enough to support a super-regional shopping complex on its own. Thirty years from now, the Chenal area may have 100,000 socio-economically attractive residents and a major limited-access arterial that connects to I-430. In that case, a developer would love to build a major complex.

Then there are Little Rock’s suburbs. Practically all of them lie along an interstate (great location); they are growing rather rapidly; and they are seeing increases in the mid-to-upper income demographic. Still, they haven’t reached that critical mass of higher income earners to attract a super-regional development, or it would have happened by now. Some may be mouth-wateringly close to that point. I could see a place like Conway becoming a very attractive retail destination in a few years, especially if their economic development officials can attract additional tech-related corporations. Conway could become for Little Rock what Franklin (Cool Springs) has become for Nashville.

I’ve saved the political angle for last, and here is where I will try to address your points 2 and 3. I completely agree with you that Little Rock city leaders supported the Summit Mall. Most of them could see that the gravitational pull of such a development would increase tax revenues for the city, despite the threat to Park Plaza. There was also a prestige factor for hosting such a major new development. The negative political atmosphere came from other factions. As I mentioned above, perhaps I should have used “community,” instead of “political” to describe the atmosphere.

You mentioned the Twin Lakes neighborhood. They played a sizable part, but I know for a fact that there were many residents of the Heights and Hillcrest who wanted to protect Park Plaza, and they made their opinions known at City Hall. The owners of Park Plaza at the time also campaigned against the potential competition. Some of the most vehemently opposed residents were community activists from environmental protection and anti-development groups. They made their opposition known at Planning Commission and Board of Directors meetings, and in front of any media outlet they could find. No matter the source, the bottom line is: there was obvious opposition to the Summit Mall, which led to something even more daunting and deflating that you mentioned – lawsuits. Ultimately, the roadblocks placed in front of Simon pushed the costs of moving forward with such a project way beyond the benefits they would reap. Ultimately, the city of Little Rock was not a receptive place for them.

Most core cities have existed long enough and are big enough to develop sizable populations of groups with opposing opinions. Little Rock is no different. Move out into the suburbs, and you tend to find a more like-minded population, especially where planning and development are concerned. It’s been my experience that residents in the suburbs are almost uniformly excited to see new commercial development in their areas. There aren’t nearly as many NIMBYs (Not In My Back Yard) in these communities as there are in the larger, core cities. More than likely, you won’t see a string of lawsuits against a major project in Bryant. The pro-development community support from suburban residents is a general rule – not an absolute. Obviously, no matter where you go, you will find opposing views on just about anything.

My apologies for my second long-winded post in a row. I hope this helps clarify my previous post. By the way, I too would love to see the University and Markham intersection become a major retail hub. It has a good start.

First of all, you get the award for the LONGEST POST EVER!!!! Yeah!!!

But...on to the point. I understand now what you're saying, and I certainly don't disagree with your conclusion regarding a hypothetical situation in which the high-end, high-income growth occurring outside Pulaski County could have resulted in a super-regional center elsewhere. But, growth didn't happen that way (thankfully), and furthermore, I really don't think that it having occurred in Pulaski County was a significant factor in a negative way with respect to a super-regional development.

Considering your three factors, I would agree that there is no ideal site to meet all three in the MSA, but it's close! Let's apply these to the I-430/I-630 site (original Simon/now Shackleford Crossings) - which I still believe was/is the ideal site in the whole MSA:

1 - Location...no question.

2 - High-income...no question - a nice balance between major, major freeway access and adjacency to high-income WLR

3 - Political Climate - again, Simon ran into resistance...and perhaps the likelihood of this is higher in the more diverse/sophisticated core market than say Bryant or Conway, BUT whether it's true or not, I think the developers see items 1 & 2 as the key factors, lucrative enough in Pulaski County to supersede any concerns about the political environment.

If your point IS that the singular event of the vocal few running off Simon was the key stumbling block in the ultimate proliferation of mid-sized centers (in lieu of one super-regional), then I guess I'd have to agree. But one could also argue that that event was just circumstantial. Having given this some thought, I think you do make a good point about number 3. But again, regardless of whether there is a marked difference in the political environment, it certainly hasn't run off the other developers who've opted to locate in Little Rock proper post-Simon. They're clearly following the money.

* I believe that had RED ultimately partnered with Simon on the I-630/I-430 site (now Shackleford Crossings), or had RED developed this site IN LIEU OF a competing site, none of us would be deliberating the issue. The economy, of course, is also having a huge impact. Ultimately though, I think if the Promenade can land key tenants (I think eventually it will), it should offer a good balance to Park Plaza/midtown. It would be nice if RED opted to develop the land directly west to create more critical mass.

[To your point about Little Rock's suburbs, I think continued growth could ultimately result in higher-end developments (and I concur that Conway is the most likely locale for this to happen), but growth is all relative. Note that per today's Metroplan data, Pulaski County has gained more residents than any other county in the metro during the past 9 years. Astounding. This is why the focus is here.]

[slyder1]

Wow, does Little Rock really have 4 power centers/malls? That is crazy that these developers would want to keep building these when they know there will eventually be a Super Regional Mall in Little Rock. I bet Simon will wait another 7-10 years and take another shot somewhere in the Metro. If that happens all of these new shopping centers will be screwed as Simon is "the" monopoly when it comes to retail. I understand they all want to make some money, and there is plenty to be made, but when you have this type of situation where there is 4 power centers in Little Rock someone is bound to get the boot.

After reading that the citizens got Simon to back down I was shocked. That could have never happened up here, as city leaders treat Simon like the god of Springfield. Yes, they have done well, but the exemptions they got were ridiculous. I would be glad Simon isn't in your town if I was you. It is very strange, though, how Simon backed off of the wonderful Interchange of 430/630 without trying that much. Maybe I'm wrong but it doesn't sound like, from what I've read that Simon put up that great of a fight.

I will say that this 430/630 is almost identical in location as the 60/65 interchange in Springfield where a 2 million sgf. Upscale shopping/office/hotel development is being built. Though they are only in the zoning stages right now it looks like a done deal with the city.

Here is a link for more info: http://www.urbanplanet.org/forums/400-mill...eve-t49033.html

[LRU1967]

Wow, does Little Rock really have 4 power centers/malls? That is crazy that these developers would want to keep building these when they know there will eventually be a Super Regional Mall in Little Rock. I bet Simon will wait another 7-10 years and take another shot somewhere in the Metro. If that happens all of these new shopping centers will be screwed as Simon is "the" monopoly when it comes to retail. I understand they all want to make some money, and there is plenty to be made, but when you have this type of situation where there is 4 power centers in Little Rock someone is bound to get the boot.

After reading that the citizens got Simon to back down I was shocked. That could have never happened up here, as city leaders treat Simon like the god of Springfield. Yes, they have done well, but the exemptions they got were ridiculous. I would be glad Simon isn't in your town if I was you. It is very strange, though, how Simon backed off of the wonderful Interchange of 430/630 without trying that much. Maybe I'm wrong but it doesn't sound like, from what I've read that Simon put up that great of a fight.

I'm a Hillcrest resident and I opposed Simon's super-mall proposal. Why? I'd seen what Simon had let happen to the University Mall and I felt that if Dillards left Park Plaza we'd end up with two failed malls within a stones throw of each other. My opinion of Simon has been reenforced by the deterioration of McCain Mall in NLR. As for the idea that there "will eventually be a Super Regional Mall in Little Rock". Maybe, maybe not, with the uncertain economic climate and the looming consumer debt I don't believe there will be such a project in central Arkansas for a long, long time.

[Architect]

I'm a Hillcrest resident and I opposed Simon's super-mall proposal. Why? I'd seen what Simon had let happen to the University Mall and I felt that if Dillards left Park Plaza we'd end up with two failed malls within a stones throw of each other. My opinion of Simon has been reenforced by the deterioration of McCain Mall in NLR. As for the idea that there "will eventually be a Super Regional Mall in Little Rock". Maybe, maybe not, with the uncertain economic climate and the looming consumer debt I don't believe there will be such a project in central Arkansas for a long, long time.

I don't think that the "uncertain economic climate and the looming consumer debt" will have much of a bearing long-term. If it doesn't happen, it will be for other reasons. It's not the end of the world.

[LRU1967]

I don't think that the "uncertain economic climate and the looming consumer debt" will have much of a bearing long-term. If it doesn't happen, it will be for other reasons. It's not the end of the world.

If I recall about a year ago you didn't think we were in a recession, that the jury was still out on how bad the economy really is and that fuel prices were going to be the big problem. Well so much for those thoughts. High fuel prices came and went. The jury came in and darn near voted a depression.

You obviously think that our current problems are not the most important ones we face. So what are the other reasons?