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Should Triangle govts push for a combined MSA?

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With a portion of the city of Chapel Hill city limits being located inside Durham County and a portion of Raleigh city limits being located inside Durham County, along with portions of Research Triangle Park being located in both Durham and Wake Counties and both cities and counties joint owning the Raleigh-Durham International Airport as well at the Triangle Transit Authority being owned by 3 metro counties......should the metro governments request the US Office of Management and Budget to redefine and create a single MSA based on the counties that form the Raleigh-Durham-Cary, Combined Statistical Area?

As we know the Office of Management and Budget (OMB) defines metropolitan and micropolitan statistical areas (MSA) and combined statistical areas (CSA) once known by the name of consolidated metropolitan statistical areas (CMSA).

We also know that MSA designations boundaries were revised by the U.S.Office of Management and Budget on June 6, 2003 and 2 of North Carolina

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With a portion of the city of Chapel Hill city limits being located inside Durham County and a portion of Raleigh city limits being located inside Durham County, along with portions of Research Triangle Park being located in both Durham and Wake Counties and both cities and counties joint owning the Raleigh-Durham International Airport as well at the Triangle Transit Authority being owned by 3 metro counties......should the metro governments request the US Office of Management and Budget to redefine and create a single MSA based on the counties that form the Raleigh-Durham-Cary, Combined Statistical Area?

As we know the Office of Management and Budget (OMB) defines metropolitan and micropolitan statistical areas (MSA) and combined statistical areas (CSA) once known by the name of consolidated metropolitan statistical areas (CMSA).

We also know that MSA designations boundaries were revised by the U.S.Office of Management and Budget on June 6, 2003 and 2 of North Carolina

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I can see legit reasons for the OMB splitting the Triad as there are significant non urbanized and wilderness areas separating GSO and WS, but that is clearly not the case with Raleigh and Durham whose borders are practically contiguous which is a clear indication of shared metro area. I don't know anything about the OMB's criteria beyond the concept of urbanized area but just don't see how in 2010 the MSA's wouldn't be recombined.

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You have stated very clearly what I have tried and failed to say for some time, Thank you! I don't know if their reasons are political or just by the numbers, but they should most definitely be re-examined. Have you considered contacting the Census Bureau about this? You really do have an understanding of there definitions, I solute you! :thumbsup:

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I agree with nowensone. The rationale for splitting up the Triad cities can make sense on numerous issues. But if you look at Raleigh-Durham (esp.) and to a lesser extent Chapel Hill, the lines are so blurred when you cross over city limits. How can you easily split the Triangle up into seperate entities when even the residents don't know where what begins and what city ends in jurisdiction?

A funny example, ask 10 people on the street "is Brier Creek in Raleigh or Durham?" You might just get some interesting blank stares. And even better is that Raleigh's transit system treats it as really part of Durham, which is the mother of all "whats?".

I'm not sure when, but I'll place my money by 2020 Raleigh-Durham will be the next Dallas-Fort Worth. Not in a culture sense, but a city planner and administration cooperation. Recognition by the OMB as a MSA may not even happen till then too. Not to mention we will double in size close to that mark, if we continue to see this level of growth.

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I can see legit reasons for the OMB splitting the Triad as there are significant non urbanized and wilderness areas separating GSO and WS, but that is clearly not the case with Raleigh and Durham whose borders are practically contiguous which is a clear indication of shared metro area. I don't know anything about the OMB's criteria beyond the concept of urbanized area but just don't see how in 2010 the MSA's wouldn't be recombined.

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I agree with nowensone. The rationale for splitting up the Triad cities can make sense on numerous issues. But if you look at Raleigh-Durham (esp.) and to a lesser extent Chapel Hill, the lines are so blurred when you cross over city limits. How can you easily split the Triangle up into seperate entities when even the residents don't know where what begins and what city ends in jurisdiction?

A funny example, ask 10 people on the street "is Brier Creek in Raleigh or Durham?" You might just get some interesting blank stares. And even better is that Raleigh's transit system treats it as really part of Durham, which is the mother of all "whats?".

I'm not sure when, but I'll place my money by 2020 Raleigh-Durham will be the next Dallas-Fort Worth. Not in a culture sense, but a city planner and administration cooperation. Recognition by the OMB as a MSA may not even happen till then too. Not to mention we will double in size close to that mark, if we continue to see this level of growth.

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Do you think it hurts the image of North Carolina to lose 2 metros with over 1 million people?

Raleigh-Durham and Greensboro/Winston-Salem never show up on list with other metros over 1 million populations. Now only Charlotte does.

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Well the Raleigh-Cary metro is already estimated to be at 950,000. So by the next census if Raleigh and Durham are still split, Raleigh will be back in the 1 million plus range. At the current rate of growth Raleigh-Cary will probably be at 1.1 million....and the Raleigh-Durham-Chapel Hill CSA will probably be at around 1.7 million. Hopefully they'll drop this CSA rubbish and put Raleigh and Durham back in the same MSA.

That is the most retarded thing I have ever seen. You take two cities who's city limits actually touch each other and put them in seperate metros. And judging by rush hour traffic on I-40, there is more than enough cross commuting between the two cities/counties. Oh well, I have a feeling it will get changed in the near future.

The Triad is a different story however. Greensboro and Winston Salem are just too far apart.

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The Triad is a different story however. Greensboro and Winston Salem are just too far apart.

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When I first started going to Atlanta in the early nineties, I would stop to refuel in Lavonia or Commerce, GA and the clerk would ask where I was headed. I would be like, "Duh...Atlanta, there's nothing else in this state."

After moving to Atlanta, I was amazed that the 15-20 counties that make up the cluster known as Metro Atlanta, not only were they not tied together by any collaborative planning or governmental boards---every county and city hated each other. It was hilarious.

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It seems silly to me that they were ever separated. They don't call it the Triangle for nothing.

I wonder if having them split up, in terms of budgets, etc. makes the region's request for transit funding less important somehow, on the federal level. The way I see it, if three cities with populations of approx. 200,000 (Durham), 100,000 (Cary), and 350,000 (Raleigh) want a train, they should have it.

I've racked my brain and I'm pretty sure Brier Creek is in Wake County. Am I right?

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Isn't it interesting that the MSAs in Texas and Florrida were allowed to merged and do you know who the OMB is? ...look at their website and see what it is connected to.

Makes you wonder why Texas and Florida huh?

http://www.whitehouse.gov/omb/

Standard definitions of metropolitan areas were first issued in 1949 by the then Bureau of the Budget (predecessor of OMB).

Although these MSA geographic areas are designed for statistical purposes only, various federal programs use these areas

to determine eligibility and to allocate federal funds. The Office of Management and Budget (OMB) advises agencies, organizations, and policymakers to carefully review program goals to ensure that appropriate geographic entities are used in making these decisions.

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Isn't there no rush hour traffic at all between Winston-Salem and Greensboro?

Doesn't this area also share one TV market, one radio market and the city of high point crosses into Forsyth County where Winston-Salem is?

They also share one airport and people that live in the area call themselves the Triad and worse.....Guilford and Forsyth County are adjacent to one another.

From downtown Greensboro to downtown Winston-Salem is about the same distance from downtown Durham to downtown Raleigh.

When people in North Carolina think of Winston-Salem don't they automatically think of Greensboro and when people think of Greensboro don't they think of Winston-Salem?

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I guess the first question is why is this important?

The MSA and CSA designations serve different purposes. They are both based on commuting patterns and give different snapshots of what constitutes an urban area.

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Also, I don't think this sort of thing will prevent national retailers or developers from coming here. The new MSA was designated in 2003... just look around. I think we're doing fine.

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It seems silly to me that they were ever separated. They don't call it the Triangle for nothing.

I wonder if having them split up, in terms of budgets, etc. makes the region's request for transit funding less important somehow, on the federal level. The way I see it, if three cities with populations of approx. 200,000 (Durham), 100,000 (Cary), and 350,000 (Raleigh) want a train, they should have it.

I've racked my brain and I'm pretty sure Brier Creek is in Wake County. Am I right?

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I guess the first question is why is this important?

The MSA and CSA designations serve different purposes. They are both based on commuting patterns and give different snapshots of what constitutes an urban area.

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I've racked my brain and I'm pretty sure Brier Creek is in Wake County. Am I right?

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Yes, technically Brier Creek is in Wake county. But it is growing more and more everyday.

Just to think 4-5 years ago there was nothing out there. Southpointe too. WoW. The growth is mind boggling. We do need high speed rail, I'm sure of it.

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I guess the first question is why is this important?

The MSA and CSA designations serve different purposes. They are both based on commuting patterns and give different snapshots of what constitutes an urban area.

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Just merge Raleigh and Durham and be done with the whole thing :rolleyes:, But seriously there is no reason for Raleigh and Durham to be in seperate MSAs with so many areas of Raleigh and Durham connected. Isn't Brier Creek closer to Durham's Downtown than Raleigh's? Anyone can see why Greensboro and Winston-Salem are in seperate MSAs as soon as I-40 splits at Forsyth County you're in the forest though this will change as High Point and Kernersville grow.

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While certain aspects of this discussion appear frivolous, a variety of agencies, government ones included, use MSA's stats, not to mention many private organizations (we do, and their definitions are relevant). I would not define this as just another "number junkie" topic, and MSA stats do sometimes prevent national retailers and development from occurring. I would assume that IKEA, for example, did it's own detailed market analysis of the CLT area before deciding to locate there, but for many companies/organizations the MSA definitions that would make the CLT and a Raleigh/Durham combined area look similar would be significant. I think therefore this is a valid discussion.

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Has anyone seen a Jan. 2007 list of top 100 metro areas? Or even Jan. 2007 list of top 100 cities? Or even what the latest estimates are? While looking on the Census website all I seem to find are the 2005 list of each of the above list. You would think that estimates would be a lot easier to come up with and faster to put up then anything. And yes, I am aware that any such list would be a mere estimate. My thanks in advance!

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While certain aspects of this discussion appear frivolous, a variety of agencies, government ones included, use MSA's stats, not to mention many private organizations (we do, and their definitions are relevant). I would not define this as just another "number junkie" topic, and MSA stats do sometimes prevent national retailers and development from occurring. I would assume that IKEA, for example, did it's own detailed market analysis of the CLT area before deciding to locate there, but for many companies/organizations the MSA definitions that would make the CLT and a Raleigh/Durham combined area look similar would be significant. I think therefore this is a valid discussion.

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