Skyline Balance

[highwayguy]

That would help. Imploding the GR press building would make alot of room to cluster more tall buildings near Calder Plaza. Also While we are at it. Let's remove the architectural disgrace that is the Post office building and replace it with something better.

Sounds good to me! I actually worked in the post office building for a summer, and after that experience, I would love nothing more than to see it gone forever. (Fortunately I wasn't there long enough to "go postal".)

[dtown]

If anyone can help me here by posting a pic of the GR Press Building and the Post Office, i really appreciate it. I have no idea what they look like, lol.

[superNOVA]

Perhaps the most exciting thing for GR is the lack of open space downtown. This guarantees that at some point (probably in the near future) we will see some impressive upward growth. With land already costing the most in the state and demand slowly growing, the bubble has to break at some point. As GR becomes the center of a growing area more large service firms will move downtown for visability.

All reports I have seen indicate that downtown will be growing steadily for the next decade and probably beyond. I dare say that the skyline of 2015 will be totally different than the one today.

[grcitydog]

Perhaps the most exciting thing for GR is the lack of open space downtown. This guarantees that at some point (probably in the near future) we will see some impressive upward growth. With land already costing the most in the state and demand slowly growing, the bubble has to break at some point. As GR becomes the center of a growing area more large service firms will move downtown for visability.

All reports I have seen indicate that downtown will be growing steadily for the next decade and probably beyond. I dare say that the skyline of 2015 will be totally different than the one today.

I didn't think of that, but I totally agree. What makes it more economical to build vertical than horizontal? When the land costs more than the cost of another floor (or forty!) I think we are about out of large chunks of buildable land (with a few notable exceptions) and developers will have to look up

[dtown]

Yeah, I've really got to wonder about those comparisons with other cities. I think even Dayton has a better (or at least denser) skyline than us. Or look at just about any Canadian city. Hamilton, ON has a far more complete-looking skyline than Grand Rapids and it's very comparable in size.

Well, actually Hamilton isnt very comparable, at least in population. It has 662,000 people. But, Hamilton's skyline isnt that great anyway.

[AlexPKeaton]

That photo of Hamilton isn't from the best angle. The downtown area is mostly obscured. Also it's totally comparable by population. The Grand Rapids MSA is about 600,000, right?

My point remains, despite GRDad's dislike for those other skylines, they're far more complete and visually interesting than ours. Just because we have a couple new buildings doesn't mean a whole lot.

[Rizzo]

770,800

-- http://www.rightplace.org/regionalStatistics/communities/

[GRDadof3]

That photo of Hamilton isn't from the best angle. The downtown area is mostly obscured. Also it's totally comparable by population. The Grand Rapids MSA is about 600,000, right?

My point remains, despite GRDad's dislike for those other skylines, they're far more complete and visually interesting than ours. Just because we have a couple new buildings doesn't mean a whole lot.

My point remains as well, they're not more visually interesting.

This topic should return to skyline balance.

[NorthEnder]

My point remains as well, they're not more visually interesting.

This topic should return to skyline balance.

Whats a skyline balance thread without a picture of the skyline!

I'd like to see something in the surface lot across the street from the Courthouse... I think on pearl & ottawa?

[tamias6]

I'd like to see something in the surface lot across the street from the Courthouse... I think on pearl & ottawa?

I'm assuming you're referring to the Elis lot on Lyon and Ottawa. There was proposal to build a 400+ footer on that spot sometime ago. But apparently that idea quietly fizzled out.

[AlexPKeaton]

Omaha seems to have a much more interesting skyline. Ours is very flat, all the taller buildings are about the same height. They're also just in a line following the river, so from the north you can't even tell there's more than a couple distinct buildings. From the west it looks nice and long, but it's not dense and again there isn't any real height variance. The best view is probably coming in from the south where it looks the most dense and big city-ish. I also dispute your argument that we have so many more modern looking buildings and all those other cities just have 60's and 70's crapchitecture. They have their share of nice buildings, and we have our share of bunkers as well.

[suydam]

Omaha seems to have a much more interesting skyline. Ours is very flat, all the taller buildings are about the same height. They're also just in a line following the river, so from the north you can't even tell there's more than a couple distinct buildings. From the west it looks nice and long, but it's not dense and again there isn't any real height variance. The best view is probably coming in from the south where it looks the most dense and big city-ish. I also dispute your argument that we have so many more modern looking buildings and all those other cities just have 60's and 70's crapchitecture. They have their share of nice buildings, and we have our share of bunkers as well.

I agree 100% that our city looks the most dense as you drive in from the south but I'll add "south west" to that.

I like coming up 131 but the best view (in my opinion) is coming up 196 into downtown from the west (Holland). I make that drive routinely coming home from my mother-in-law's and at night the city really puts on a great face from that direction...always looks interesting, well lit. You can see the DeVos Place on the water, the new buildings, and stuff up Medical Hill shows off well too.

If I could stop the car right on 131, I'd snap some photos.

[GRDadof3]

I too like the I-196 coming in from the West. Here's my rendition (not as good as tamias'), but if a new tower were placed on the 5/3 lot on Ottawa, and if the Lyon & Ottawa lot were built on, both with 25 - 30 story buildings (about 400'), and 50 Monroe with a 15 - 20 story building (about 300'). It's still spread out, but it would be quite a change.

But personally I also like coming into downtown on 131 from the south when you hit the S-curve. No, there aren't a lot of high-rises, but there is just an interesting urban fabric as you drive through downtown. The huge old warehouses that look interesting, the new ITP station tent, the renovated buildings on Ionia, the arena, then the Grandville buildings that have been renovated, then the skyline opens up, Charley's Crab right next to the highway, the shot up the river on the right, then GVSU's campus on the left, then you can see the convention center and the Amway Grand and Marriott after you pass the Days Inn, then the new YMCA on the other side, then Bridgewater. It just looks exciting. It's no wonder more people don't get into accidents on 131.

[torgo]

I too like the I-196 coming in from the West. Here's my rendition (not as good as tamias'), but if a new tower were placed on the 5/3 lot on Ottawa, and if the Lyon & Ottawa lot were built on, both with 25 - 30 story buildings (about 400'), and 50 Monroe with a 15 - 20 story building (about 300'). It's still spread out, but it would be quite a change.

But personally I also like coming into downtown on 131 from the south when you hit the S-curve. No, there aren't a lot of high-rises, but there is just an interesting urban fabric as you drive through downtown. The huge old warehouses that look interesting, the new ITP station tent, the renovated buildings on Ionia, the arena, then the Grandville buildings that have been renovated, then the skyline opens up, Charley's Crab right next to the highway, the shot up the river on the right, then GVSU's campus on the left, then you can see the convention center and the Amway Grand and Marriott after you pass the Days Inn, then the new YMCA on the other side, then Bridgewater. It just looks exciting. It's no wonder more people don't get into accidents on 131.

I drive that every day and I still stare out the window looking at all the buildings.

[GRDadof3]

I drive that every day and I still stare out the window looking at all the buildings.

Ha, too funny! I'm guilty of it too. On top of all that, you can also see all the tower cranes working away up on the Michigan hill. Add to that the tower crane at RiverHouse and I might just stay off of 131 for awhile so I don't get sideswiped.

[GRDadof3]

This thread re-kickstarted with cnordstrom's image:

Looks great! And I see you got Tall House in there too.

[Florida]

This is a very interesting thread. I think the Grand Rapids people have some of the best conversations on UP.

[cnordstrom]

I played around a bit with your idea of tower placement and came up with this. All of the buildings in the picture are either built, proposed, or are in construction. You already know all of the ones for Grand Rapids that are new in this picture, but you might not know the three big ones. They include (from left):

from Des Moines - 801 Grand (192 m, 629 feet, 45 floors), existing office tower

from Mobile - RSA Battle House Tower (227 m, 744 feet, 35 floors), recently completed office tower

from Minneapolis - The Nicollet (188 m, 616 feet, 55 floors), proposed condominium

Just to put this in perspective: Plaza Towers is about 105 m, 344 feet, and RiverHouse is going to be around 403 feet.

I mentioned this in the other thread, but it's amazing how much any one of these buildings would dominate GR's skyline. You would almost have to have more than one tower of these sizes built to keep any sense of balance. What also amazes me is that these buildings are not that big... if it can fly in Des Moines, it seems like it should be buildable in GR!

[thestranger]

Is there a pdf showing an aerial view of the skywalk connectivity of the downtown buildings? Kinda new to UP so this could be out there and I just have not found it yet. Thx.

[cnordstrom]

Ah, I am a complete idiot... copied the wrong link. HERE's the picture I was talking about!!

[DwntwnGeo]

Is there a pdf showing an aerial view of the skywalk connectivity of the downtown buildings? Kinda new to UP so this could be out there and I just have not found it yet. Thx.

I don't know if this will help you out or not but try looking at this PDF:

Downtown GR

The skywalks are not highlighted, but you can look closely and see the skinny walkways that cross various downtown streets.

[Explorer]

In regards to cnordstroms sketch up, the 3 additions really do dwarf all existing GR buildings. No comparison. I agree that by putting up just one with that big of a height discrepancy would look very odd...why not 3...why not 5?? I do like the hypothetical placement as well. A very "Centered" skyline, with an easy focal point.

I peeked at the Des Moines skyline on Emporis, why are they so far ahead of GR? Most of their height, barring the borrowed tower, is very well established. It doesn't appear there was a huge boom recently. They have the same city proper population, and rougly 2/3 of the metro. What gives? The site noted an abundancy of insurance HQ's are there, never would have guessed that.

After surfing around a little more, most every market with a comparable population has a more vertical if not exciting skyline that GR.

[GRDadof3]

In regards to cnordstroms sketch up, the 3 additions really do dwarf all existing GR buildings. No comparison. I agree that by putting up just one with that big of a height discrepancy would look very odd...why not 3...why not 5?? I do like the hypothetical placement as well. A very "Centered" skyline, with an easy focal point.

I peeked at the Des Moines skyline on Emporis, why are they so far ahead of GR? Most of their height, barring the borrowed tower, is very well established. It doesn't appear there was a huge boom recently. They have the same city proper population, and rougly 2/3 of the metro. What gives? The site noted an abundancy of insurance HQ's are there, never would have guessed that.

After surfing around a little more, most every market with a comparable population has a more vertical if not exciting skyline that GR.

Our "verticalness" is more "horizontal", and resides in those massive industrial parks around the airport. In other words, historically the largest employment base in GR has been manufacturing, which doesn't need office space downtown. What's really interesting is that many of the other skylines, most the buildings were built in the early 90's. Not much has gone on height-wise for many midwestern cities, until recently with the condo tower boom (which might be soon coming to a close for many cities). GR's boom in the 80's and 90's, from what I have gathered, was with new Steelcase plants and a myriad of new parts suppliers all over the metro area.

I tried some other cities like Des Moines and Emporis' server is acting up.

[cnordstrom]

I wonder what kind of effect all of the medical development will have on downtown. I know there are a couple of new hotels already, but will the influx of jobs push demand for more condos, beyond which RiverHouse can provide alone? If RiverHouse takes off big time, will more developers start thinking vertically?

[wingbert]

In regards to cnordstroms sketch up, the 3 additions really do dwarf all existing GR buildings. No comparison. I agree that by putting up just one with that big of a height discrepancy would look very odd...why not 3...why not 5?? I do like the hypothetical placement as well. A very "Centered" skyline, with an easy focal point.

I peeked at the Des Moines skyline on Emporis, why are they so far ahead of GR? Most of their height, barring the borrowed tower, is very well established. It doesn't appear there was a huge boom recently. They have the same city proper population, and rougly 2/3 of the metro. What gives? The site noted an abundancy of insurance HQ's are there, never would have guessed that.

After surfing around a little more, most every market with a comparable population has a more vertical if not exciting skyline that GR.

Just spit-ballin' here, but there could be a couple of factors at play. Des Moines is the largest city in Iowa, GR is not the largest city in Michigan (yet). Plus we have Chicago in our back yard - they have what... Omaha, Kansas City as their nearest large metro areas? Being the largest city in their area, they would naturally draw a larger concentration of workers. One question is how much of their vertical growth took place prior to the advent of high-speed communications and increased computing power? In the days before these benefits existed, it was much more necessary for an organization to cluster its many workers, departments and functions together in order to gain efficiencies - ie: in a tall skyscraper. Email, fax, scanners, the internet, even FedEx have made much of this obsolete. Nowadays, your accounting department can be in Lansing, your sales office in Grand Rapids, your marketing department in Chicago, your manufacturing in China and your customer service operation in India. I would love to see a 700 ft. tower in downtown GR, but who or what's going to fill it?

Say... How high can you build a parking structure? [ducks]