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Which non ATL metro city in GA feels the most like a true metro CITY?


georgia478

Which City?  

41 members have voted

  1. 1. Which one of these non ATL metro cities feels the most urban

    • Macon
      9
    • Columbus
      3
    • Albany
      0
    • Augusta
      9
    • Savannah
      19
    • Athens
      1


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As far as urbanity goes, Savannah probably has more than any city in Georgia, even Atlanta. Sure Atlanta has skyscrapers and all of that, but it is still an auto oriented city, even in its core. The oldest parts of Savannah are designed for people, and have a truely urban quality that is unmatched in the rest of Georgia.

I have to give Athens credit though. My first visit there really suprised me. They have a much mroe solid core than I expected. Lots of activity, and the university gives that town a lot of energy that it probably wouldn't have otherwise.

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As far as urbanity goes, Savannah probably has more than any city in Georgia, even Atlanta. Sure Atlanta has skyscrapers and all of that, but it is still an auto oriented city, even in its core. The oldest parts of Savannah are designed for people, and have a truely urban quality that is unmatched in the rest of Georgia.

I have to give Athens credit though. My first visit there really suprised me. They have a much mroe solid core than I expected. Lots of activity, and the university gives that town a lot of energy that it probably wouldn't have otherwise.

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How are you going to get mature discussions when half of the people on these Georgia threads arent even of a mature age?

I like the bickering regardless of what anyone says, as long as it is not hurtful to anyone. I try not to participate in it too much but I get a kick out of reading it at least. If not for it these Georgia threads would be lamer than they already are!

Anyway, back to subject...

Savannah!!!

but hell, they all (Augusta, Athens, Macon, Savannah, Columbus) feel like true metros to me.

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Thats a great example of a post that isnt constructive. You speak of maturity yet you lack that maturity to say something that is relevant. There are other cities in Georgia with a case for urbanity that Savannah... but to what degree? Augusta used to be the largest city in Georgia, and that was before the auto age... so I'm interested to hear what they have to say for themselves.

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^ The fire of 1916 is the major turning point in Augusta's history. It destroyed or at least gutted 25 whole blocks downtown. While many cities lost a lot of their historic building stock a few decades later during "urban renewal," much of Augusta's historic stock was already decimated at that point. The wealthy hoods adjacent to DT (Old Town) were left to rot after the fire, as the wealthy folks moved to higher ground (Augusta was also very flood-prone at that point) to the streetcar suburbs of the Hill and Summerville areas. Trading posts and shops along Reynolds St., including Cotton Row, which was the center of GA's cotton industry, were completely abandoned after the fire. Although the flood threat was removed when the dam was built at Clark's Hill Lake/Lake Thurmond, downtown never got back to it's 1916 form. The fire left 3000 people homeless, which is almost crazy to believe, as I doubt there are even 3000 TOTAL people living in downtown or Old Town today...

So yeah, that's what happened to Augusta. There are some amazing remaining residences and structures that were clearly once part of great streets reminiscent of Savannah, but today it's more gap-toothed, with abandoned lots between that were never rebuilt or even kept up... And the once great Reynolds St., which is essentially Augusta's riverfront street and should be it's most desirable, is almost post-apocalyptic-ly hideous and abandoned...

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Savannah is the most urban city in Georgia in the old sense of the world. It has suburbs, but they are not that sprawled, despite rapid growth in Bryan and Effingham counties, most of the metro population still resides in Chatham County. I suspect the barrier islands, marshes, and swamps keep the city from becoming to sprawled and westward is the only large areas for continuous development, Pooler and Bloomingdale sit in the path it could take. The region is growing steadily but not rapidly, so some of the unique ecology of the region can be preserved without putting a damper on growth. The rest of Georgia's cities are still small towns at the core surrounded by suburbs, often inside the city limits. Most cities in Georgia didn't become cities until after the Civil War, and remained small cities until the Post WWII automobile era. By then Atlanta was already much larger and the focus of urban and suburban growth-skyscrapers downtown with freeways connecting the city to the suburbs, the second tier cities never really tried to compete with Atlanta to lure jobs and growth, they grew rapidly in the immediate post-war era due to the massive shift from rural Georgia from the late-40's to early-60's. Most of the residential and retail development in Macon, Columbus, Augusta, and Albany is very typical late 20th century to present day suburbia surrounding an old large town-small city core. Athens is much the same, except the college town centered economy kept the downtown viable and urban, but in a small to large town sense, not so much a city sense. Also, Athens and Atlanta sprawl are rapidly approaching each other and Athens could become an exurban job core in a larger Atlanta metro. But kudos to Athens for having a walkable downtown that is still thriving, something only Savannah has succeeded with among the others. Most of the other downtowns and Atlanta's as well, is closed up by 6:00 pm.

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^ I suspect that the urban renewal would have destroyed quite a few of the commercial structures anyway... The big difference I think would be the urban residential areas immediately surrounding downtown. Old Town would be a lot cleaner/more expensive, and the pockets of gorgeous, but rotten homes on Telfair, Greene, and nearby streets would resemble the continuous residential streetwalls of Savannah, though a more Victorian feel.

A large middle-class to wealthy population adjacent to dt would have been less likely to leave during white flight. Tourism potential would have inspired more preservation. I think flight and decay would have happened just like most cities, but if the city had a larger stock of attractive old homes downtown, the turnaround that's slowly happening now, would have been much accelerated. Even though there are great homes waiting to be restored, you'll still likely be living next to a weed-strewn, treeless lot, with old, cracked sidewalks and trash everywhere... Large-scale whole block redevelopment will be needed before individual investors will be willing to take a risk on most of the blocks west of Broad St....

Another important thing that the fire took away was the old growth tree canopy. Trees were largely replanted in Old Town and are a nice size now, but Greene, Telfair, even up to Walton Way and Laney Walker, etc are still significantly lacking in greenery.

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And has anyone else noticed that the trees in many Southern towns, (especially in the lower Piedmont region) that were originally planted when the towns were being built were attractive, sturdy, evergreen trees like Laurel or Live Oak. You dont see that too often anymore except for along the coast where they are more common and native. I see that alot in Augusta, where parts of Downtown and in neighborhoods like summerville are practically green and shady year round where the suburbs are brown, (with the exception of pines.)

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Savannah is the most urban city in Georgia in the old sense of the world. It has suburbs, but they are not that sprawled, despite rapid growth in Bryan and Effingham counties, most of the metro population still resides in Chatham County. I suspect the barrier islands, marshes, and swamps keep the city from becoming to sprawled and westward is the only large areas for continuous development, Pooler and Bloomingdale sit in the path it could take. The region is growing steadily but not rapidly, so some of the unique ecology of the region can be preserved without putting a damper on growth. The rest of Georgia's cities are still small towns at the core surrounded by suburbs, often inside the city limits. Most cities in Georgia didn't become cities until after the Civil War, and remained small cities until the Post WWII automobile era. By then Atlanta was already much larger and the focus of urban and suburban growth-skyscrapers downtown with freeways connecting the city to the suburbs, the second tier cities never really tried to compete with Atlanta to lure jobs and growth, they grew rapidly in the immediate post-war era due to the massive shift from rural Georgia from the late-40's to early-60's. Most of the residential and retail development in Macon, Columbus, Augusta, and Albany is very typical late 20th century to present day suburbia surrounding an old large town-small city core. Athens is much the same, except the college town centered economy kept the downtown viable and urban, but in a small to large town sense, not so much a city sense. Also, Athens and Atlanta sprawl are rapidly approaching each other and Athens could become an exurban job core in a larger Atlanta metro. But kudos to Athens for having a walkable downtown that is still thriving, something only Savannah has succeeded with among the others. Most of the other downtowns and Atlanta's as well, is closed up by 6:00 pm.
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Savannah is an interesting place. Its the only colonial city that I can think of with a well developed grid system by design. And more importantly, that grid system was maintained well into the 19th century when the more common subdivisions we know and hate today started becoming more common.

As someone who's never lived in Savannah, I am interested in the area in this map. When did it develop, what are the neighborhoods like there, etc... any information that anyone wants to share would be appreciated.

Ive always thought it interesting that the standard suburbs that are more common in most cities are notably less common in Savannah. Is this phenomenon due to good planning or a lack of growth during the early 20th centry?

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Fascinating stuff!

So where is the 70's and 80's sprawl that most other cities have? Its got to be somewhere. With most other cities you can clearly see a development pattern based on the streets, but in Savannah its not as clear (except for the historic district vs other areas).

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DaltonGA, you know a lot about Savannah---thanks for the information. It's my understanding that Savannah's metro growth stagnated a bit in the 80s. For me, that's when Augusta's suburbs were really booming. Columbia County was nothing but farms back then with the exception of West Lake, but that quickly changed during the 80s and early 90s. I wonder if that has to do with Savannah's lack of suburban sprawl (that and the natural barriers of course).

I believe Savannah has the most potential of any city outside of Atlanta. The only negative aspect of Savannah is its high crime rate. But of course, that never stopped Atlanta's growth.

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Basically the closest to 80's and 90's type suburban sprawl you can find in Chatham is along Abercorne(GA 204). Savannah Mall opened in 199o and some retail development is occuring along Exit 94 of I-95 and GA 204, mostly catering to I-95 travellers, hotels and restaurants. Wal-Mart is attempting to build a Supercenter near the exit in the Sandfly community, but has met with strong local opposition. The Landings at Skidaway Island is one of the few residential areas on this barrier island, a state park and the oceangraphic unit of Georgia Tech are on Skidaway and limits its development. The heaviest developed barriers are suburban Whitemarsh and Wilmington Islands which have been developing since the 80's. Continue Victory Drive eastward through Thunderbolt and across the causeway is Whitemarsh with Wilmington next. The areas east of Wilmington are marshy, Fort Pulaski National Historic site, the Tybee Island(aka Savannah Beach), a 1950's looking beach town. Little development has occured along Ogeechee Road(US 17) between I-516 and Abercorne, but the potential is there. Augusta Road(GA 21) will take you from downtown to Garden City and Port Wentworth on through the I-95 interchange and into Effingham County and the suburb of Rincon. Growth stopped in Garden City and Port Wentworth after the 1960's and the interchange hasn't been an impetus for growth in Chatham. However, Effingham is growing rapidly, particularly around Rincon. Lower real estate costs, more developable land, and easy access are fueling the growth. Effingham is somewhat inland and is not as swampy and marshy as the coastal counties and sprawlier suburban and exurban growth is more feasible. Chathams most rapidly growing areas are limited to Whitemarsh and Wilmington Islands and Georgetown along Abercorne, past Savannah Mall. US 80 west has the most potential for growth, around Bloomingdale and Pooler. The Chrysler plant was to have been built here and it is close to I-16 and I-95, and the Savannah-Hilton Head International Airport, now accessible by Pooler Parkway/Airways Avenue. The construction of Veterns Parkway along the western boundary of Hunter Army Airfield, paralelling Ogeechee hasn't yet brought development to the area between I-516 and Abercorne yet. The Liberty City area at I-516 is Savannah's poorest neighborhood and has probably been an unadmitted force behind lack of development in the area. The take off and landing patterns at the base could be detrimental to the area developing as well. A drive along the recently widdened US 17 through is still mostly rural.

Bryan County to the south has been rapidly growing like Effingham, but a large land area is marshy and swampy and inland a chunk of the county is covered by Fort Stewart. Richmond Hill has grown rapidly and the old Ford Plantation has been developed into a retail and residential area. The county seat at Pembroke has not seen any major growth, but Bryan and Effingham have the potential to be like Columbia County in the Augusta area. Springfield, the Effingham county seat,hasn't yet had the growth that Rincon is experiencing, but like Pembroke is about 25 miles from downtown Savannah. Jasper County, SC has potential for growth being along I-95 and between Hilton Head and Savannah, but the Savannah NWR is along the north bank of the Savannah River and has been a deterent to developing Jasper County. As retirees discover the Georgia coast, hopefully Savannah will be able to lure jobs that will raise the standard of living to the cost of housing.

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IMHO, the "problem" with threads like this is that they are totally subjective. What "feels" the "most urban" depends entirely on the answerer's emotional reaction and how he or she defines "urban." That said, I have to say that Augusta "feels" more "urban" to me than any of the other 2d-tier cities. It has a more pronounced skyline and 2 (Columbia and Aiken) fairly large (ie, > 100,000) suburban counties. Macon has a somewhat less dramatic skyline and only one (Houston) fairly large suburban county. Savannah seems more 19th century quaint that 21st century urban (its architecture impresses because of charm rather than height) and has no fairly large suburban county. Columbus has the least impressive skyline of all and only one (Lee) fairly large suburban county.

Potential is a different consideration and certainly no less subjective. Augusta has interstate access from Atlanta to the northeast, the Masters and MCGa. Macon has interstate connections to the coast and Florida, the cherry festival and Mercer. Savannah has the seaport, the coast and SCAD. Columbus, tho it may not currently benefit from what the others already have, has still maintained its position as one of the preeminent 2d-tier cities. I "feel" that that is mostly based upon being blessed with intangibles like a native blue-collar entreprenureal population that has created several locally owned enterprises (AFLAC, Synovous, Bill Heard, etc) and fairly competent government leadership. If and when Columbus gets comparable tangible benefits, like meaningful interstate connections, expansion of CSU and Columbus Tech and development of the river (white water), then there is reason to believe that it has as much or even more potential than the others. Again, that is simply how I "feel" and my "feelings" are certainly influenced by being a native Columbusite.

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Fascinating stuff!

So where is the 70's and 80's sprawl that most other cities have? Its got to be somewhere. With most other cities you can clearly see a development pattern based on the streets, but in Savannah its not as clear (except for the historic district vs other areas).

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If you take your map further south of DeRenne, along Abercorn, you can see what qualifies as modern suburban development. Also, take it east on US 80 beyond Thunderbolt to Whitemarsh and Wilmington Islands and you will see more suburban developmet. Both malls are south of DeRenne off Abercorne. The islands have marinas and condos, which are otherwise a scarce residential offering in Savannah. If you subtract the 131k in Savannah from the Chatham population of 232k, you end up with over 100k in suburban Chatham. As growth in Bryan and Effingham is more recent, Chatham is still the largest suburban population center for Savannah. It wouldn't take a major annexation to bring most of these people into Savannah as Wilmington Island, Whitemarsh Island and Georgetown are unincorporated, Census Defined Places(CDP) to be exact. Only Tybee Island, Bloomindale, Pooler, Garden City and Port Wentworth are incorporated. The Garden City-Port Wentworth area last saw major growth in the early 60's. Pooler and Bloomingdale are poised to be the next area of Chatham for growth and a galleria style mall has been proposed for the area. Chatham's coastal location results in its climate being milder than the climate a little further inland in Effinghman, Bulloch and other nearby counties and adds to the desirability of Chatham County. If the Savannah River Parkway were to be constructed, Effingham will boom like Columbia County has.

Beaufort Co., SC is the closest populated and high growth area to Savannah, Hilton Head is considered micropolitan, but will be a metropolitan area by 2010 census. If Jasper County in between the two is added to Savannah MSA, then Hilton Head will probably join the Savannah-Hinesville-Ft Stewart CSA, and become Savannah-Hilton Head Island-Hinesville CSA. Liberty County, home to Hinesville and the Ft Stewart CDP hasn't grown much in the 2000's-troops are deployed in Iran and Afghanistan and many of their spouses have returned to their hometowns, causing a small decline in Liberty's population. Bulloch County to the west of Savannah is rapidly growing, home to Statesboro and Georgia Southern University. It is classified as micropolitan and wouldn't become metropolitan before 2020 or 2030. It too could possibly be added to the Savannah CSA in 2010, but the connections are less strong, so I have my doubts.

The coastal area of Georgia is becoming desirable to retirees, some who have seen in going to Florida and others who were station along the coast while in the military. Brunswick, Savannah, Hinesville and St. Marys-Kingsland are less dependent on the military and the paper mill industry, so retirement is the biggest growth industry in the region.

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  • 10 months later...

I truely love the charm of Savannah, but Augusta in Richmond County and now Columbia County north of Richmond County is experiencing tremendous growth, not to mention North Augusta in Aiken County in neighboring South Carolina, which is also experiencing a trememdous growth spurt and sprawling out just like metro Atlanta, and as most people in Georgia know, Augusta is Georgia's second largest metropolitan area.

Augusta like Atlanta is also experiencing many freeway enlargements, expansion of I-520 to the South Carolina line and a complete rebuilding of the I-20/I-520 interchange making it sort of like a mini Spaghetti Junction.

Also Augusta's retail is expanding with the new life style additon and expansion of Dillard's to Augusta's major regional mall Augusta Mall, and there is talk of adding possibly another mall where the abandoned Regency Mall now sits, and also several life style centers in the metro area.

And Downtown Augusta is experiencing alot of growth as well with added retail and restaurants and new condo towers proposed along the Savannah River. So I think that pretty much sums it up IMHO.

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