Downtown GR Freeways

[dtown]

While we're all trying to find viable ROW for LRT, why don't we just tear out all freeways from the outer ring to downtown? Replace them with boulevards and trains!

[BGIII]

I think I-196 could be removed between 131 and College, and we could be rid of that gawd-awful bridge over the river. When you're going Eastbound coming into downtown, 3/4's of the traffic gets off heading either North or South on 131. When you're traveling Westbound coming into downtown on I-196, much of the traffic has dispersed by the time you reach 131, or at least enough of it has dispersed that you could just nix it. That's what MDOT should be looking at doing. Westbound I-196 after it passes College could just become a boulevard or a 4 lane street that ends at Ottawa or Monroe.

[GRDadof3]

Do you have a traffic study to back that up? I hate to just come out and say you are wrong, but I come in on eastbound 196 everyday and I don't think even 10% of the vehicles get off at 131. 196 is always backed up going into downtown via that bridge during the rush times, it drives me nuts that MDOT doesn't make that stupid non-used left lane between Lane Ave and 131 north into an exit only lane so we could get past all the backed up traffic going into downtown.

[MJLO]

There is no question, that the bridges, and the entire freeway from the 96 split, all the way to the junction is ugly. But you're talking about an Arterial mess into one of the largest employment centers in the metropolitan area. Something needs to be done drastically and soon, to modernize the freeways. But without an alternative removing them could be catastrophic. I know you all think they are ugly. But they do serve a function, and the 131 is Busiest north/south artery west of 75. What would you do with all the weekenders?

Come on guys. I know you think they are ugly, I know you think they inhibit the city, and give you less pretty things to look at. Use some common sense. Even with the M-6 bypass. They are still VITAL to the areas economy. Why do you think freeways became such a National Phenomena? Do you really think the GR area would be as bustling as it is without the advent of them. Companies, especially in the manufacturing sector rely on them for their own vitality. Mobility in an area, is a direct tie to corporate relocation, and business expansion.

[Grand Rapidian]

We can always bury it! ... yeah right... Tunnels everywhere!

I think it is more likely that it would be buried than removed or rerouted... so basically we have to live with it, end of story. How would that help the city? Its looks?

[francishsu]

To supporters of getting rid of the I-196 bridge.. what happens to the Bridge St. bridge?

[Grand Rapidian]

There is no question, that the bridges, and the entire freeway from the 96 split, all the way to the junction is ugly. But you're talking about an Arterial mess into one of the largest employment centers in the metropolitan area. Something needs to be done drastically and soon, to modernize the freeways. But without an alternative removing them could be catastrophic. I know you all think they are ugly. But they do serve a function, and the 131 is Busiest north/south artery west of 75. What would you do with all the weekenders?

Come on guys. I know you think they are ugly, I know you think they inhibit the city, and give you less pretty things to look at. Use some common sense. Even with the M-6 bypass. They are still VITAL to the areas economy. Why do you think freeways became such a National Phenomena? Do you really think the GR area would be as bustling as it is without the advent of them. Companies, especially in the manufacturing sector rely on them for their own vitality. Mobility in an area, is a direct tie to corporate relocation, and business expansion.

[GRDadof3]

To supporters of getting rid of the I-196 bridge.. what happens to the Bridge St. bridge?

[BGIII]

Have you noticed how many people continuing past 131, past the Ottawa exit, and on to the East side? That would be interesting to know.

[francishsu]

Leave it. Why, would you get rid of it? I have a feeling the people here against the idea have never been to 6th Street Park or the fish ladder. It's horrible:

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/35/72500308_d62346c386_b.jpg

(that picture does not do it fair justice as to the ugliness)

The Bridge St bridge has a much lower profile.

[francishsu]

Based on the number of people that get in the left lane back in Grandville and won't get over so that they are in the left lane when they get downtown, I would guess a substantial amount are going through downtown and out to East Beltline, Cascade and even 28th Street.

[Raildudes dad]

Isn't that part of the reason the highways are so close to DT? When they built it they wanted them as close to DT without total running it over? To serve the city? Lots of things were torn out for them when they could have bypassed the city and had local connector stretches (which only devalue that plan because they are more complicated then just getting off at Pearl and being DT).

Hence the S-Curve, they could have put 131 around the city in Walker where land was a plenty and they could have had a cheaper straighter highway and all the ROW they could every want. Could you imagine getting off of 131 out in Walker and driving down Lake Michigan Drive to get downtown from Rockford area?

[highwayguy]

Removing 1/2 mile of an otherwise continuous freeway just to get rid of an ugly bridge and create ~100' of river frontage would be insane, and would create a lot of unintended problems. There is way too much traffic to simply make them all go through downtown. Sure, the drivers who use it every day would find alternate routes - they would have to. But at what cost? Increased travel times? Additional gasoline consumption? Increased air pollution? Increased traffic - and danger to pedestrains - on downtown streets? Do we really want, say, an additional 10,000 vehicles/day on Michigan St, including large trucks? I just don't see how it would be worth it. Removal of a short spur that only serves the downtown, such as I-375 in Detroit, is one thing. I would actually support getting rid of that freeway, if for no other reason than to fix the junction at I-75. But forcing a high volume of through traffic to detour off the freeway through downtown GR because of missing link, well, that just doesn't make sense.

If we were having this conversation 50 years ago, and were debating mass transit into downtown versus building a freeway into downtown, I would support mass transit 100%. But that's not the decision that was made, and with the development patterns that have emerged since then we now need these freeways to get around. Maybe our great-grandchildren will someday be able to get rid of I-196, when there are fast and efficient mass-transit alternatives everywhere and everyone sells their cars, deciding to move back into the city and live in a more sustainable manner. But it can't happen today. Or tomorrow. Probably not even in my lifetime.

In my opinion, the best solution is to work on making our freeways better fit in with their surroundings. I really hope that the new Coit Ave bridge over I-196 is built like some of the designs I have seen on this site. I think it should even be a bit wider, creating a small park over the freeway. I agree that the I-196 bridges over the river are ugly, and would love to see something creative done to make them look better the next time they need to be rebuilt. More pedestrian bridges and tunnels should be built, and I like some of the ideas I have read to add stores and other retail uses under the S-curve. We should try to make our freeways as transparent as possible, without actually removing the connection they provide between various areas of the region.

[joeDowntown]

Seems ridiculous to me too. We might as well be talking about putting a man on the sun. It isn't going to happen.

It seems like some people here would like to force people to use mass transit. Sorry folks, the car isn't going to die. That doesn't mean that mass transit is not a good idea or that it won't work, but you can't look at it as an "either or" situation.

Joe

am I the only one that opposes this, or thinks that It does not make sense or will ever happen? Maybe I am the only one that uses it regularly and not always having dt as a destination. Why would you want to take a through expressway apart? The ones that are being downgraded into boulivards in other cities are just short spurs that end in the DT so that makes sense to have more access to the road. But tearing down a bridge that carries between 50 and 75k vehicles a day just because its ugly? Really how much of a devide is it? you can walk undernieth it although it could use a strictly pedestrian bridge or tunnel too and how much of a pain/relief is it for traffic? Michigan av running imediatly parallel is never too backed up. And tearing it down to create more space? come on look at google earth to see that its less than 100 feet wide and next to a much larger abanded feild and 2 surface lots along tha river. The GR press building and the post office should be removed imo.

I'm not trying to nag, I just don't see any solid resons for removing an expressway and it seems like everyone here likes that idea? I drive it all the time because living by east beltline or cascade it is a lot easier and faster to take 196 west twards Grandville/ Holland or to 131 south than any other route including M6

[highwayguy]

I was a kid when 131 was built (ended coming north at 28th Street in 1959) . Note it is US 131 not an I route. It was built just as the I system was getting started. It was built with federal US route dollars, state dollars and local dollars. Why did it go through town as opposed to around like most I routes (I-96 around the south side of Lansing, I-75 around Flint)? Because the city helped fund it. As part of funding, they got to have input in location & interchanges. The city fathers didn't want a bypass and wanted exits every mile . Part of the congestion on 131 in town during rush hour is the "friction' generated by cars entering every mile. BTW: as part of city / county agreement in the early 70's, the Road Commission took over payment of the city's US 131 bond payments (last payment made I in think in 1985)

The location that resulted in the S-curve was determined by the route of least resistance and cost. They relocated part of the Pennyslvania RR yard (now NS) and went over the downtown freight & passenger yards (that's why it's elevated from S of Wealthy to Grandville:) ) It was cheaper to buy pillar rights and build the bridges than buy buildings, relocate the businesses and demo buildings. Plus you still needed overpasses at the city streets. Union Station & the train shed were where the parking lots east & south of the arena are. The Pennsy didn't run passenger trains here any more and the C&O ran one daily each way to Detroit & Chicago so the DOT built a new passenger depot in the now CSX Wyoming Yards. Passneger service lasted until the mail went by plane rather than train.

The west side S -curve approach displaced houses, not industry or many businesses, Bridge Street in that area was where today's "homeless" congregated. The road curved left to miss the "ugly" building on the west side of the river on the south side of the S-curve. That building was the "state of the art" food distribution warehouse for A&P. Reinforced concrete, refrigerated & dry goods for the "biggest" grocery chain. Inbound by rail, outbound to the stores by truck.

It was cheaper to miss that and the "City island" on the east sdide of the river.

Anybody for more history, fire away with questions

[tamias6]

How about turning 1-196 from a freeway to a boulevard starting from Lincoln Ave. in Westside to the I-196/I-96 interchange, then reconnect as many streets, severed by the freeway, as possible.

Here's a sketchup file of the Westside and DT stretch. I drew in some buildings to illustrate that with a boulevard the urban fabric of DT could reconnect with Michigan Hill and Monroe North. Putting Division into a tunnel and adjusting the grade of the hill would help that process along. Throw in some predominate buildings and GR would have a new main street.

[civitas]

I was a kid when 131 was built (ended coming north at 28th Street in 1959) . Note it is US 131 not an I route. It was built just as the I system was getting started. It was built with federal US route dollars, state dollars and local dollars. Why did it go through town as opposed to around like most I routes (I-96 around the south side of Lansing, I-75 around Flint)? Because the city helped fund it. As part of funding, they got to have input in location & interchanges. The city fathers didn't want a bypass and wanted exits every mile . Part of the congestion on 131 in town during rush hour is the "friction' generated by cars entering every mile. BTW: as part of city / county agreement in the early 70's, the Road Commission took over payment of the city's US 131 bond payments (last payment made I in think in 1985)

The location that resulted in the S-curve was determined by the route of least resistance and cost. They relocated part of the Pennyslvania RR yard (now NS) and went over the downtown freight & passenger yards (that's why it's elevated from S of Wealthy to Grandville:) ) It was cheaper to buy pillar rights and build the bridges than buy buildings, relocate the businesses and demo buildings. Plus you still needed overpasses at the city streets. Union Station & the train shed were where the parking lots east & south of the arena are. The Pennsy didn't run passenger trains here any more and the C&O ran one daily each way to Detroit & Chicago so the DOT built a new passenger depot in the now CSX Wyoming Yards. Passneger service lasted until the mail went by plane rather than train.

The west side S -curve approach displaced houses, not industry or many businesses, Bridge Street in that area was where today's "homeless" congregated. The road curved left to miss the "ugly" building on the west side of the river on the south side of the S-curve. That building was the "state of the art" food distribution warehouse for A&P. Reinforced concrete, refrigerated & dry goods for the "biggest" grocery chain. Inbound by rail, outbound to the stores by truck.

It was cheaper to miss that and the "City island" on the east sdide of the river.

Anybody for more history, fire away with questions

[walker]

What year did the S-curve open to traffic? I had a Triumph Spitfire in high school and used to love hitting the metal strips at each expansion joint. The rear end would slide just enough to feel it when pushing hard through the s-curve. Great fun.

[Raildudes dad]

Thanks for the info! My grandparents used to live about a block off of Monroe Ave just north of Ann St, and I have heard that there used to be a raceway on the west side of the river before US-131 was built.

Also, someone told me that there were some historic homes similar to those in Heritage Hill that were torn down near Lake Michigan Dr to make way for the freeway. Do you know anything about that? Also, do you know how the route of I-196 east of downtown was chosen?

In my opinion, the construction of I-196 had a much larger impact on neighborhoods than did US-131.

[Raildudes dad]

I can remember driving on it in high school in 64 but it opened a little earlier than that. According to this link the portion between 28th and Pearl opened in October 1962.

link

Does anybody besides me remember when there was actually a railroad crossing at grade level across the 131 expressway around 44th street?

[michaelskis]

I don

[AlexPKeaton]

I guess my ideal would be a total realignment of the freeways, rather than just destroying them in favor of boulevards and transit. I'd like to see a real beltway-type system where through traffic really does just skirt around the city without taking much more time. If that were the case it could make more sense to remove the freeways that cut through the city, or at least let them dump traffic into downtown but not continue through it.

But, that's not very workable. Imagine cars traveling north on US-131. Where would they go? Either way on the M-6 and around town? Maybe the east-west flow could work like that, but certainly not the north-south. I think I mentioned this a long time ago in another thread, but I would have liked to see the S-Curve torn down, and rather than rebuild it they could have angled it west over to I-196. It could have gone a long way to reconnecting the west side with the river and to downtown. I wouldn't mind seeing US-131 moved farther away from the river on the north side of town, but I'm not sure that it would offer much benefit over the existing alignment.

I am curious now. What other proposed routes were there when the freeways were built? Could US-131 cut through the east side of the city anywhere? How about I-196? Why is it sitting so precariously on the hillside to the west, and why make such a big cut on Belknap Hill on the east? How would our city look today if other alternative routes were used?

[tamias6]

The only thing I'm not to keen about a beltway skirting the city is that fact it would make sprawl even worse. Look at M-6. ever since it was constructed urban sprawl along that freeway has been going gangbusters. Now imagine that same 68th street and Kalamazoo Ave. type of sprawl shooting out in all directions instead of just south and east of the urban center. The best example of beltway sprawl I can think of is Indianapolis which I've been though on several occasions. Unlike the GR Metro where sprawl is concentrated on major corridors, Indy's sprawl is solid and uniform in density in every direction. Only far outside the 465 beltway, about 15 to 20 miles from the urban core does the sprawl begin breakup and concentrate onto major corridors. An even more nightmarish example of beltway sprawl would be Huston, TX which as multiple beltways and another one in the works. That kind of sprawl I can very well live without.

[Rizzo]

I believe on/off ramps produce sprawl.