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Renatus on the Hill


jbr12

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There are a couple of articles in the Religion section of the Press today about evolving church architecture, this church project, and the dwindling memberships of the very old cathedrals in Rome (from the exodus of lower and middle class to the suburbs of Rome). Can't find the articles online though. Interesting read though, and echoes a lot of what I said a few posts back about recent church trends.

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A lot of churches today want youth centers [etc.] You just can't do those kinds of things in buildings built 100 years ago in historic areas with strict design guidelines for additions

Westminster Presbyterian did a great job adding on to their building. And they still have their original santcuary with all the integrity one would expect to find in a traditional church building. Bethlehem Lutheran could have done something similar. I feel the current Pastor didn't like the idea of working with Heritage Hill. I remember he gave up replacing the sign outside because Heritage Hill turned down his proposed plan. I guess he showed them!

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I wouldn't imagine so.. unless Mr. London was the one doing it. =p

vision01.gifvision04.gif

vision02.gif

That's the former congregational area.. all a dance floor with small stage for DJs, and 3 stories of catwalks and steel spiral staircases winding around the room, with blue lights representing stars floating around on the ceiling (mid-party they added different lights to the ceiling, but that was how they ran it the whole time for the opening acts)

It was a mind-blowing experience just exploring that thing, let alone the actual music.

WWJDD - What would Jack Daniel's do?

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There are a couple of articles in the Religion section of the Press today about evolving church architecture, this church project, and the dwindling memberships of the very old cathedrals in Rome (from the exodus of lower and middle class to the suburbs of Rome). Can't find the articles online though. Interesting read though, and echoes a lot of what I said a few posts back about recent church trends.

Hate to be pedantic, GRDad (well, not really), but there is only one "cathedral" in Rome, which is where the Pope sits as the Bishop of Rome. A "cathedral" is simply a church where the bishop sits on his "cathedra." In GR, that is St. Andrew's, which happens to be big, but it could be a smaller church. Not all big churches are "cathedrals," including the "Crystal Cathedral," which is officially only a church.

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I just saw this, and I can't believe how sad the news makes me. Regardless of the care the developer puts into the building, the idea that condos will be replacing a building where I was baptised, where my parents were married, and where my grandfather's funeral took place is very hard to swallow. To be fair, I haven't been to church in many many years (for that matter, I haven't even lived in GR in many years now!), so maybe I have no right to complain. It just bothers me that the Bethlehem board decided to abandon over 100 years of history. Yes, it is "just" a building, but the building is a source of truly monumental memories for many people.

I'm ashamed of the church board, and hope Ken and his crew treat this building (and by extension, its former congregation) with more respect than the actual church board did.

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The pope's cathedral technically isn't in Rome, it's in Vatican ;p

Don't mean to be technical myself...but I thought I would just set the record straight.

The Pope is the bishop of the Diocese of Rome...and as bishop of Rome his cathedra (Episcopal chair/seat) is in the Basilica of St. John Lateran in the city of Rome...not St. Peters Basilica in Vatican City.

St John Lateran...is the cathedral church of Rome and the official ecclesiastical seat of the Pope. Officially named Archibasilica Sanctissimi Salvatoris (Archbasilica of the Most Holy Savior), it is the oldest and ranks first (being the only cathedral in Rome) among the four major basilicas of Rome, and holds the title of ecumenical mother church (mother church of the whole inhabited world) among Catholics.

-from Wikipedia

This is were the Popes used to live (in the Lateran Palace) until the early fourteenth century when the Seat of the Popes was transferred for a while to Avignon in France. When the Popes again began living in Rome, they decided to build a new Palace (due to the disrepair of the Lateran) at the Vatican...hence why today St. Peter's is often, mistakenly, thought to be the "cathedral" of the Pope.

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  • 2 weeks later...

I just saw this, and I can't believe how sad the news makes me. Regardless of the care the developer puts into the building, the idea that condos will be replacing a building where I was baptised, where my parents were married, and where my grandfather's funeral took place is very hard to swallow. To be fair, I haven't been to church in many many years (for that matter, I haven't even lived in GR in many years now!), so maybe I have no right to complain. It just bothers me that the Bethlehem board decided to abandon over 100 years of history. Yes, it is "just" a building, but the building is a source of truly monumental memories for many people.

I'm ashamed of the church board, and hope Ken and his crew treat this building (and by extension, its former congregation) with more respect than the actual church board did.

Just wanted to let you know that, for myself, and I am certain that I speak for Mr. Pentecost (the developer) when I say that we are very sensitive to the history of the building, but even more so, to the history of Bethleham's people. It must be incredibly hard to leave these memories in such a beautiful sanctuary. We hope that the work that we do will be an honor to all of the members who worshiped there and that the transition would become a truly beautiful addition to Heritage Hill as a neighborhood. I sat at the church today on the steps up to the alter and looked at the stained glass window over the center of the balcony. No matter how many times I look at that, I am struck with how beautiful it is. I will truly envy the person that gets to look at that every day. I hope the building becomes a house of peace, in a different way, for those few that will get to call it home. I realize it must be very hard to leave. We'll do our best to do no harm. Kevin Moore

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Here's the thing that gets me; aging congregations are selling their beautiful old structures in urban centers everywhere just when people are starting to come back. A younger Lutheran (or any other for that matter) congregation will never be able to afford real estate like that again. It is so much more than a building, it's a location smack in the middle of the most impressive (urban) growth this city has seen in a long long time. Why do you think the developer wants it?

No offense to the developer, I doubt you had to twist anyones arm, but it reminds me of the city selling off it's parking lots for a short term gain...

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  • 1 month later...

Here's the thing that gets me; aging congregations are selling their beautiful old structures in urban centers everywhere just when people are starting to come back. A younger Lutheran (or any other for that matter) congregation will never be able to afford real estate like that again. It is so much more than a building, it's a location smack in the middle of the most impressive (urban) growth this city has seen in a long long time. Why do you think the developer wants it?

No offense to the developer, I doubt you had to twist anyones arm, but it reminds me of the city selling off it's parking lots for a short term gain...

I recently was on Loopnet doing comparisons and found the parking lot of this church listed for sale - .88 acres for a cool 3.5 million. If they get it... would this be the priciest acre ever sold in GR?

Thatsa lotsa bibles!

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I recently was on Loopnet doing comparisons and found the parking lot of this church listed for sale - .88 acres for a cool 3.5 million. If they get it... would this be the priciest acre ever sold in GR?

Thatsa lotsa bibles!

I would think that the priciest acre would probably be the old Burger King lot under the Cancer Center. I thought I heard that lot went for like $6 million

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I know that all is said and done, but something about this makes me a little sad. It seems as if as Americans we are a people without roots, or enough of a reverence for them to not turn our backs on them. Not only is this evident in the leaving of historic churches, but in the leaving of historic neighborhoods. I am glad that there is now a movement back into our historic places, hopefully they will still be there for us.

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I know that all is said and done, but something about this makes me a little sad. It seems as if as Americans we are a people without roots, or enough of a reverence for them to not turn our backs on them. Not only is this evident in the leaving of historic churches, but in the leaving of historic neighborhoods. I am glad that there is now a movement back into our historic places, hopefully they will still be there for us.

I couldn't agree more! And from a strictly cost prespective, once a church leaves a place like this they will NEVER be able to afford to come back. Real smart, pack up and leave just as your neighborhood is seeing it's biggest influx of people, jobs and development... And don't tell me it's because the space doesn't work for worship any more, maybe it doesn't work for aging boomers but they are an anomoly and coming generations will look back with sorrow at what their parents have done with the resources entrusted to their care. [*doh, did I just say that out loud*]

Don't get me wrong, I'm glad the developer is being 'respectful' but the fact is that only a few select and relatively affluent folks will be able to enjoy the history and beauty of this place in the future... that's what makes me sad.

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What I don't get with the "This Church no longer works anymore for our Worshiping needs" statement is that the act of worship has not really changed all that much. We still sing hymns. The minister still gives the sermon. We still partake in the Holy Eucharist or Communion. Other than the advent of so-called Mega-Churches, neither Catholic or Protestant worship services have changed all that much for the years. On that note I don't see why a traditional church building complete with narthex, nave, transepts, and chancel, would not fit the needs of today's congregation.

I couldn't agree more! And from a strictly cost prespective, once a church leaves a place like this they will NEVER be able to afford to come back. Real smart, pack up and leave just as your neighborhood is seeing it's biggest influx of people, jobs and development... And don't tell me it's because the space doesn't work for worship any more, maybe it doesn't work for aging boomers but they are an anomoly and coming generations will look back with sorrow at what their parents have done with the resources entrusted to their care. [*doh, did I just say that out loud*]

Don't get me wrong, I'm glad the developer is being 'respectful' but the fact is that only a few select and relatively affluent folks will be able to enjoy the history and beauty of this place in the future... that's what makes me sad.

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I think the issue is churches use a lot more space besides the worchip area/sanctuary for things like Sunday school and administration offices. My church up in Petoskey had used an adjacent house for offices that was previously used as the parsonage, and there was an addition to the back of the church that looks like it was done in the 1970s.

Much to my dismay the church has purchased land outside of town and is looking to move in the coming years when they save enough money for construction. Part of the reasoning is that elderly members have trouble with the stairs in front, but probably the bigger reason is...wait for it...parking! :sick:

The church is essentially downtown. There's parking on the street for blocks all around. It's mostly used on Sunday when the parking spaces aren't being used for other purposes. And get this: there's a small office building next door with a parking lot that's totally vacant on Sundays that most church-goers use on Sundays. I'm not sure if there's any arrangement with the office building owners, but it hasn't seemed to be a problem.

Further, I know of at least one church member who is poor and probably somewhat mentally ill. He's really friendly though and everybody likes him and treats him well, but I wonder if he'd be able to even attend the church if it were out of town.

I'm calling dibs on the building for redevelopment right now though! :)

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Medieval churches which traces their layouts to the Roman Basilica were designed to served other functions as well. They served as concert halls, schools, hospitals, and meeting places. In some of the great cathedrals in France, merchants even used the nave of the church to sell their wares during the town market. In short a traditional church is by nature a multi purpose building. These other functions the church building served is the reason why one finds a clear and define separation dividing the nave and chancel. Be it a simple set of steps or something as elaborate as a rood screen. This allowed the clergy to conduct church related activity in the chancel without being disrupted by other activities going on in the nave. A traditional church building such as St. Mark's or St. Andrew's and even the existing BLC building traces their layouts to Medieval Churches and Roman Basilicas.

Oh before I wrap up. If it would help, tell your church that in 2004 when St. Andrew's Cathedral was undergoing restoration and renovations, a bump out containing a handicap/ barrier free entrance was added next the church's north transept.

I think the issue is churches use a lot more space besides the worchip area/sanctuary for things like Sunday school and administration offices. My church up in Petoskey had used an adjacent house for offices that was previously used as the parsonage, and there was an addition to the back of the church that looks like it was done in the 1970s.

Much to my dismay the church has purchased land outside of town and is looking to move in the coming years when they save enough money for construction. Part of the reasoning is that elderly members have trouble with the stairs in front, but probably the bigger reason is...wait for it...parking! :sick:

The church is essentially downtown. There's parking on the street for blocks all around. It's mostly used on Sunday when the parking spaces aren't being used for other purposes. And get this: there's a small office building next door with a parking lot that's totally vacant on Sundays that most church-goers use on Sundays. I'm not sure if there's any arrangement with the office building owners, but it hasn't seemed to be a problem.

Further, I know of at least one church member who is poor and probably somewhat mentally ill. He's really friendly though and everybody likes him and treats him well, but I wonder if he'd be able to even attend the church if it were out of town.

I'm calling dibs on the building for redevelopment right now though! :)

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Is anyone of you that are so upset about this move a part of this church? I do know that someone posted a while back that was a member of the congregation, but a lot of your information that you are talking about now is either second hand or through the wonderful resources of the Grand Rapids Press. Yes, it is a shame BLC is moving from their historic structure. Yes it is a shame they are moving from the Historical Heritage Hill district. However, they ARE moving into a historical district (Heartside) and one of the main reasons they are moving is to be able to do more ministry work and be able to help the public. A church is not a building, a congregation is not a structure. It is the people and what better purpose than to help other people? There may be other reasons behind the move that the general public doesn't know about also...

I'm sorry I forgot to post pictures. I was in the 250 Commerce building this afternoon and did take pictures, but I didn't have time to post them. Maybe early next week...

Edit - And in regards to the 'space doesn't serve the needs' etc comments, it just doesn't. While it is true that traditional worship hasn't changed over the years, some churches do have alternate worship services that are not traditional that do require unfixed seating. Pews and fixed seating restricts a space tremendously

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Medieval churches which traces their layouts to the Roman Basilica were designed to served other functions as well. They served as concert halls, schools, hospitals, and meeting places. In some of the great cathedrals in France, merchants even used the nave of the church to sell their wares during the town market. In short a traditional church is by nature a multi purpose building. These other functions the church building served is the reason why one finds a clear and define separation dividing the nave and chancel. Be it a simple set of steps or something as elaborate as a rood screen. This allowed the clergy to conduct church related activity in the chancel without being disrupted by other activities going on in the nave. A traditional church building such as St. Mark's or St. Andrew's and even the existing BLC building traces their layouts to Medieval Churches and Roman Basilicas.

Oh before I wrap up. If it would help, tell your church that in 2004 when St. Andrew's Cathedral was undergoing restoration and renovations, a bump out containing a handicap/ barrier free entrance was added next the church's north transept.

Yes, but the old church layouts with straight aisles and a bully pulpit in front have kind of become a thing of the past. Even Catholic churches in the 80's built new churches with more of an "auditorium" layout where the pews (benches) wrapped around the altar, or took their old congregations and tried to reconfigure the pews in more of a horseshoe shape. It made a lot of difference too, and makes it a lot less formal and more inviting.

Modern classrooms have also gotten away from the straight rows and aisles and teacher's desk in the front.

edit: no worries jbr12, I have a few shots of the building. I think this is the one, correct?

512877176_1ae4bf9765.jpg

512877182_61ced1e533.jpg

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Good shots Gr Dad. Thanks. I wonder if they are going to add on a sanctuary or some how embed one into the existing foot print?

Also you have a good point about the "bully pulpit. Its quite sad that few rotten apples in the clergy that are constantly preaching Hell's fire and eternal damnation or getting themselves into scandal have turned so many people away from a traditional church setting.

Yes, but the old church layouts with straight aisles and a bully pulpit in front have kind of become a thing of the past. Even Catholic churches in the 80's built new churches with more of an "auditorium" layout where the pews (benches) wrapped around the altar, or took their old congregations and tried to reconfigure the pews in more of a horseshoe shape. It made a lot of difference too, and makes it a lot less formal and more inviting.

Modern classrooms have also gotten away from the straight rows and aisles and teacher's desk in the front.

edit: no worries jbr12, I have a few shots of the building. I think this is the one, correct?

512877176_1ae4bf9765.jpg

512877182_61ced1e533.jpg

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Wow... just... wow... They went from a gorgeous historical structure to a paper factory?!? That church is going to die a quick death. I don't care what improvements you put into that building; it can NEVER impart the sense of awe and inspiration that the old church did. I was sad about this move before. Now I'm just a bit angry.

Nice move by the church elders. <_<

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Wow... just... wow... They went from a gorgeous historical structure to a paper factory?!? That church is going to die a quick death. I don't care what improvements you put into that building; it can NEVER impart the sense of awe and inspiration that the old church did. I was sad about this move before. Now I'm just a bit angry.

Nice move by the church elders. <_<

So being a member of a church has "everything" to do with what building you worship in and nothing to do with how you help people? Are you a person that won't associate yourself with something that drives a different class of vehicle (meaning Chevy vs Mercedes)? An article posted mentioned that there are major modifications that need to be done with the building. Maybe the congergation of the church would rather spend $500,000 on the Heartside Community rather than putthing a new roof on. It just sounds like people are more concerned about the "image" of this building than helping others in need. <_<

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