New Downtown for Greenville?

[gs3]

There is no doubt, this area of 85 in a few short years has become a second downtown / uptown (whatever you want to call it) unto itself.

CU-ICAR

Verdae

Millenium Campus

The Point

Shops at Greenridge

Magnolia Park

St.Frances new campus

South Financial new campus

the new McChesney development

Can you guys believe this many large scale projects have all happened in just a few short years in this one small area?

During this same time, our actual downtown has expanded greatly. The number of openings (restaurants and shops) outweigh the closings and the numbers of tourist keep climbing. Throw into all this the developments to the North (Cherrydale and Travelers Rest), Eastside developments, Golden Strip and Simpsonville's boom and the Powdersville / Easley growth.

IMO it's safe to say Greenville has some well rounded growth in all areas and multiple hotbeds of activity, and it doesn't seem any one area of growth is at the expense of another.

[breed]

One thing that bodes well for downtown when compared to this new high-growth area is economic diversity. As a general rule, new construction tends to be at the higher-end of the market. Because there is little existing development, the finished developments in the area will be, by and large, uniform in its economic diversity.

If the goal is to make people less reliant on vehicles, then development will need to provide for both consumers and employees. Most suburban development, even the most dense suburban developments, lack this. A high-quality transit system can help address these concerns though.

My hope is that the development of this corridor can be paced slowly enough to bring some measure of diversity to the developments, although I have my doubts (my hunch is that Verdae gets built out in a much faster time frame than initially proposed). In the absence of that, hopefully the infrastructure for a meaningful transit system is in place before development occurs.

[vicupstate]

With the announced changes to Mag Park, and the incredible plans for the point, I thought this thread may need to be revisited. With DT's recent efforts to attract national retailers (with little success), and recent closings on main st, DT's hopes of becoming a retail destination seem to be fading into the sunset. If all of these I-85/Woodruff centers happen, people will have little need to shop DT at all. It is a shame some of these stores could not have been announced for DT, to help keep it the center of Gville. One of the developers could have even bought out university square and put up a smaller but similar development. Think how much that could have impacted DT. It is not impossible that entertainment venues, then some of DT's restaurants will be built in this area, and eventually the current DT may become "The Old Greenville." In 30 years, DT may be in this I-85/Woodruf/385 mess. Food for thought...

[GvilleSC]

This seems like a great place for young people. You're priced out of downtown, so urban life of some sort at the point seems like the next best thing. Maybe this will get a developer to build more affordable apartments downtown...??? If I could afford downtown, it'd be my first choice, of course.

I'm glad that county square isn't going forward. County square can stay what it is for now. I didn't trust the quality of the developer to add something at the site on the same caliber as Riverplace.

[vicupstate]

I'm glad that county square isn't going forward. County square can stay what it is for now. I didn't trust the quality of the developer to add something at the site on the same caliber as Riverplace.

[GvilleSC]

What don't you trust? Some here have seen a rendering and thought it looked very good. A poorly designed building would detract from the Magnolia Plaza development, which would hurt the developer more than anyone.

We will be looking at that ugly County Square for years to come, I'm afraid. We get more sprawl and lose a wonderful chance to take DT to a whole new level.

[vicupstate]

A rendering for Magnolia Park? I've seen it, too. I liked it. I have reservations for Gulfside developing a truly urban development in Downtown. I hope that I'm wrong. It doesn't matter now, but I would prefer to have a different force behind redeveloping County Sqaure. It makes me feel better about keeping downtown as a quality destination everywhere; not just on Main.

[gs3]

I'm having trouble seeing these new developments as competition for downtown. I see them as complimentary. Downtown is solid and has a unique draw that these developments will not have. Downtown is the tourist center, and that is only changing for the better with the arrival of The Peacock Hotel & Spa. Think about it, downtown has.....Liberty Bridge, Falls Park, the Riverwalk, West End Field, the Michelin Experience, Peace Center, Bi-Lo Center, live theater, museums, quaint outdoor dining, loft living and on and on. Downtown will continue to draw more and more people, IMO. These new developments will have mainly shopping, offices and best of all housing....lots of new housing that will be connected to downtown via BRT and much closer to downtown than where the average suburbanite lives. Looks like a win/win.

[distortedlogic]

I agree that DT has a lot to offer. However, I have a little bit of concern that these other areas (especially the boombelt) will not only prevent many people from coming DT to begin with, but also pull people living and working DT out that way. If DT is to remain the center of Gville, we need to make sure we have something more than a couple of parks and entertainment venues. DT is growing no doubt, but the boombelt growth seems to be far outpacing it. So the question is: down the road a decade or two, will DT still be the place to be?

[gs3]

But downtown is much more that "just a couple of parks". My point may have been missed....downtown is a different animal altogether than the boombelt. Downtown is the number one tourist draw (I'm not talking locals), I'm talking the affluent couples from Atlanta that drive up for a long weekend in their S Class or the northerner here on business. I fly almost weekly and every single time I talk with other business travelers headed into Greenville. Many times, their day business may be out in Simpsonville, but they always say "I've heard downtown is great...gonna check it out tonight". I see both downtown and the boombelt growing equallly, as well as Simpsonville and the Eastside and Travelers Rest and.......

IMO it would be selling Greenville short to think one new growing area can supplant one of the best downtowns in the Southeast.

And to answer the question direct, I think down the road you're going to see a dynamic city with multi centers of activity. Actually, we see that now.

[GvilleSC]

I was referring to the County Office building itself, not Magnolia Plaza's site plan. I wonder if we could it posted, just to see what has been lost.

What do you have against Gulfside?

Anything they did would have to be approved by he city, so he would not have a freee rein. You sound as if he was going to put mobile homes on it.

[NYTransplant]

But downtown is much more that "just a couple of parks". My point may have been missed....downtown is a different animal altogether than the boombelt. Downtown is the number one tourist draw (I'm not talking locals), I'm talking the affluent couples from Atlanta that drive up for a long weekend in their S Class or the northerner here on business. I fly almost weekly and every single time I talk with other business travelers headed into Greenville. Many times, their day business may be out in Simpsonville, but they always say "I've heard downtown is great...gonna check it out tonight". I see both downtown and the boombelt growing equallly, as well as Simpsonville and the Eastside and Travelers Rest and.......

IMO it would be selling Greenville short to think one new growing area can supplant one of the best downtowns in the Southeast.

And to answer the question direct, I think down the road you're going to see a dynamic city with multi centers of activity. Actually, we see that now.

[goodbye]

I find it interesting that some people think that somehow downtown Greenville will be forgotten by businesses, residents, and visitors. All you have to do is visit downtown once in a while to see that it will NEVER be forgotten. Where else in the entire Upstate can you find such a high concentration of cultural opportunities? Where else can you find such a pleasant, international atmosphere, with over 80 dining options (and more on the way)? Where else can you find so many awesome attractions, parks, and entertainment venues? There just isn't a place in the entire Upstate that is more urban, and the outlook for downtown is very positive. Perhaps we could consider these I-85 developments to be catalysts for further development in downtown someday?

[GvilleSC]

Downtown will never be forgotten, especially not with the CVB's tourism efforts. This is just an outlet for the tenants who don't see downtown as fit for them. e.g. your upscale national retailers

[distortedlogic]

I actually agree with you guys about DT currently being unique to our area. And I hope that leaders will be able to continue to bring the quality developments and additions that will make it so from now on. I simply wanted to hear some opinions on whether or not the new boombelt would take enough attention and people away from DT (as happened with SF HQ), that it could actually become the new center, or new "DT" for Gville in the future. It seems the general opinion is that DT serves a different role, and that it will continue to do so for decades to come. I hope so, as DT is a great place. Perhaps the boombelt will truly become an uptown or midtown. Lets hope city and county leaders can find a successful way to integrate the two together (and all other areas as well).

[krazeeboi]

I think distortedlogic's concerns are substantiated in a way. It seems as though Greenville may experience an "Atlanta" effect in the years to come, with other areas coming to rival downtown in terms of size and amenities (with some variation in the latter). I would automatically consider this a good thing if the emerging centers of activity weren't located along the interstate. This makes it harder to create truly urban centers of activity (not to say that it can't be done). However, hearing about the bullet bus makes me optimistic that this is the route city leaders will take.

[breed]

In a short-period of time, it is close to impossible to construct a functional downtown environment. Downtown Greenville has one. The new developments around the interchange won't have one. That's not to say they won't be great developments, I'm sure they will be. But their development patterns aren't likely to be paced, resulting in long-term vehicular dependency.

At any rate, all the development around the interchange is a good thing, in my opinion. The single-biggest stumbling block for a transit system of some sort was having a place to go. All of this development will give Greenville that sorely-needed #2 destination.

[distortedlogic]

In a short-period of time, it is close to impossible to construct a functional downtown environment. Downtown Greenville has one. The new developments around the interchange won't have one. That's not to say they won't be great developments, I'm sure they will be. But their development patterns aren't likely to be paced, resulting in long-term vehicular dependency.

At any rate, all the development around the interchange is a good thing, in my opinion. The single-biggest stumbling block for a transit system of some sort was having a place to go. All of this development will give Greenville that sorely-needed #2 destination.

[Spartan]

In a short-period of time, it is close to impossible to construct a functional downtown environment. Downtown Greenville has one. The new developments around the interchange won't have one. That's not to say they won't be great developments, I'm sure they will be. But their development patterns aren't likely to be paced, resulting in long-term vehicular dependency.

At any rate, all the development around the interchange is a good thing, in my opinion. The single-biggest stumbling block for a transit system of some sort was having a place to go. All of this development will give Greenville that sorely-needed #2 destination.

[breed]

Even with an extended period of time it is almost impossible to recreate a downtown environment. Ther is one major reason for that: parking. When downtown Greenville was planned out, cars were not a determining factor for anything because they didnt exist. Another issue is that lenders will not lend money if there is no parking. The other problem is that cars are planned for. IMO, if someone would plan a place just for pedestrians first, and then figure out how to cram in cars after the fact (like any downtown anywhere), you'd have a much cooler place, and probably a more successful one.

[interestedexpat]

In my experience 'downtownesque' environments can be created anew today. The key is mass transit and development standards.

Arlington, VA is a great example. I lived in Ballston (area of Arlington) for a few years during an urban boom. The Metro (DC Subway) ran through. At one time the area had a big suburban office park feel. Highrises but with big parking lots. Big streets. You had to drive everywhere. When the Metro was put in, Arlington adopted development guidelines that restricted the kinds of development that could go within a certain distance of a stop. They required a high level of density and multiuse projects. The idea was to cluster urban areas around the Metro stops. It has worked brilliantly!

I saw Ballston and Clarendon metro stops transform into vibrant urban areas that feel like downtowns. They became foot traffic oriented with shopping, living and office space all integrated. Traffic problems didn't really exist (unless you tried to get on I-66 going into or out of DC) within Arlington. On local streets, even rushhours were managable. It was truly awesome.

You can contrast that with the experience in the MD suburbs which took a more suburban approach. They built parking decks for their Metro stops and catered to commuters. As a result new urban cores didn't develop in the same ways (Bethesda and Silver Spring being the exceptions - but they both pre-existed Metro as urban cores). MD had huge traffic issues when I was there.

So the lesson is... make sure that we get the BRT system and then create guidelines for any new developments within a certain distance (walking distance) of stations. Then wait 20 years and you will have an amazing urban core. It won't replace DT G'ville, but it can really work synergistically to benefit the entire region.

[Spartan]

I don't necessarily agree with that. There are urban areas throughout the country that are managing to create strong downtown environments, and provide for parking. Even downtown Greenville has more than adequate parking, and it is a strong downtown environment.

However, I understand your point. New development (in the absence of a decent transit system) is going to be autocentric. Autocentric development tends to be less dense... but I don't think it has to be.

[GvilleSC]

You should provide parking, my point was that it should not be as prominent (for lack of a better term) as they are with new develpoments. Newly developed "urban centers" feel very forced to me. Think about any greenfield new urbansit/towncenter/lifestyle center type of development. Downtown's are natural, and just feel different to me. I realize that may be a flaky description, but does that clear up my point at all?

[Greenville]

In my experience 'downtownesque' environments can be created anew today. The key is mass transit and development standards.

Arlington, VA is a great example. I lived in Ballston (area of Arlington) for a few years during an urban boom. The Metro (DC Subway) ran through. At one time the area had a big suburban office park feel. Highrises but with big parking lots. Big streets. You had to drive everywhere. When the Metro was put in, Arlington adopted development guidelines that restricted the kinds of development that could go within a certain distance of a stop. They required a high level of density and multiuse projects. The idea was to cluster urban areas around the Metro stops. It has worked brilliantly!

I saw Ballston and Clarendon metro stops transform into vibrant urban areas that feel like downtowns. They became foot traffic oriented with shopping, living and office space all integrated. Traffic problems didn't really exist (unless you tried to get on I-66 going into or out of DC) within Arlington. On local streets, even rushhours were managable. It was truly awesome.

You can contrast that with the experience in the MD suburbs which took a more suburban approach. They built parking decks for their Metro stops and catered to commuters. As a result new urban cores didn't develop in the same ways (Bethesda and Silver Spring being the exceptions - but they both pre-existed Metro as urban cores). MD had huge traffic issues when I was there.

So the lesson is... make sure that we get the BRT system and then create guidelines for any new developments within a certain distance (walking distance) of stations. Then wait 20 years and you will have an amazing urban core. It won't replace DT G'ville, but it can really work synergistically to benefit the entire region.