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New Downtown for Greenville?


distortedlogic

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I certainly hope that if the Verdae area gets enough development to become a second downtown, that it becomes a true downtown (i.e., dense enough and well-planned enough so that people walk around rather than drive, like Main Street). Unfortunately the track record of new "downtowns" like Main Street in Irvine, CA (in Orange County, south of LA), SouthPark and Buckhead are that those areas eventually become pretty concentrated with a lot of downtown-like attractions and look nice but they still are car-oriented, with very wide roads, little retail at the edge of a sidewalk, grass, etc., so people still drive around them. Plus Greenville's track record for walkable suburban development is pretty poor. Thus I'd favor still trying to shove as much development downtown as possible.

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Buckhead and SouthPark (and Tyson's Corner in northern Virginia could be throw in also) are more accurately described, I think, as edge cities. I don't find them to be very urban at all and that's, in part, because they developed around a signature feature of suburbia--a mall. Hopefully, Verdae being a masterplanned traditional neighborhood development will allow it to succeed where these others have failed. The closest thing I can think of what "downtown Verdae" might look like would be one of the New Urbanist town center-type developments, like these.

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Probably much smaller in the end. Verdae is so large in scope that the vision includes a good bit of retail, hotel, entertainment, and modern highrise office buildings along I-85, still a contiguous part of the overall development. Griffin Park and Acadia apear to be more geared to residential, with small aspects of business and retail included. They are definitely great traditional urban developments, yet they will never reach the size and importance of Verdae as a new urban center for the city.

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Probably much smaller in the end. Verdae is so large in scope that the vision includes a good bit of retail, hotel, entertainment, and modern highrise office buildings along I-85, still a contiguous part of the overall development. Griffin Park and Acadia apear to be more geared to residential, with small aspects of business and retail included. They are definitely great traditional urban developments, yet they will never reach the size and importance of Verdae as a new urban center for the city.
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Buckhead and SouthPark (and Tyson's Corner in northern Virginia could be throw in also) are more accurately described, I think, as edge cities. I don't find them to be very urban at all and that's, in part, because they developed around a signature feature of suburbia--a mall. Hopefully, Verdae being a masterplanned traditional neighborhood development will allow it to succeed where these others have failed. The closest thing I can think of what "downtown Verdae" might look like would be one of the New Urbanist town center-type developments, like these.
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I have never been to SouthPark in Charlotte, but I have been to Buckhead many times and it is definitely urban. It is very densely built, it has tall buildings (with a bunch on the way), many parking buildings and very few surface parking spaces, it has a Marta stop, etc. I fail to see how something developing around a mall makes it any less urban.
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Interesting discussion guys, thanks for jumping in. As I understand Verdae, I think the original articles stated that in 20 years, it could encompass planned neighborhoods, home to thousands of people, with a concentration of restaurants, retail, office and hotel. It also said there could be many office, hotel, and residential highrises of 10-20 stories; all in an area several times the size of DT, and all in veiw of I-85 and I-385. Many feel it will not take 20 years to realize. If this is true, it seems to me that such an area, with proximity to major highways and malls, with it's size and amenities, could fairly easily rival the current DT. And who knows, it could eventually become the "center" of Greenville. However, remember that the current DT "footprint" is really starting to expand. And if University square is redeveloped, the Kroc center has similar effects the stadium has had, and Pete Hollis gets his game going, then DT will be substantially larger than it currently is. And given the popularity of DT, the draw of the stadium, BLC, Peace center, and falls park (among others); plus being the office and financial center; unless Verdae is the likes of something we have never seen, DT is not going anywhere. But I think Verdae, especially combined with ICAR and Mellinium can unquestioningly have the opportunity to be a completely other urbanized area, within the city. Afterall, it has been described as a "city within a city." It is interesting to ponder though, especially since, as the Journal mentioned, that real estate people are wondering what will happen too. Not to mention, that this spot (Verdae) woul dbe mch closer to the majority of the population base of the county.

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Interesting discussion guys, thanks for jumping in. As I understand Verdae, I think the original articles stated that in 20 years, it could encompass planned neighborhoods, home to thousands of people, with a concentration of restaurants, retail, office and hotel. It also said there could be many office, hotel, and residential highrises of 10-20 stories; all in an area several times the size of DT, and all in veiw of I-85 and I-385. Many feel it will not take 20 years to realize. If this is true, it seems to me that such an area, with proximity to major highways and malls, with it's size and amenities, could fairly easily rival the current DT. And who knows, it could eventually become the "center" of Greenville. However, remember that the current DT "footprint" is really starting to expand. And if University square is redeveloped, the Kroc center has similar effects the stadium has had, and Pete Hollis gets his game going, then DT will be substantially larger than it currently is. And given the popularity of DT, the draw of the stadium, BLC, Peace center, and falls park (among others); plus being the office and financial center; unless Verdae is the likes of something we have never seen, DT is not going anywhere. But I think Verdae, especially combined with ICAR and Mellinium can unquestioningly have the opportunity to be a completely other urbanized area, within the city. Afterall, it has been described as a "city within a city." It is interesting to ponder though, especially since, as the Journal mentioned, that real estate people are wondering what will happen too. Not to mention, that this spot (Verdae) woul dbe mch closer to the majority of the population base of the county.
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Interesting analysis, distorted logic.

However, a big reason why downtown Greenville is successful as it is today isn't just because of the offices, residential components, and hotels; it's because it's a significant cultural center. Unless attractions go into Verdae that would rival what's already present downtown, or significant downtown events (e.g., Fall for Greenville, Artisphere, etc.) get moved there, downtown will still have much pull.

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Agreed. And maybe DT is established enough to retain it's current standing in the city. But I guess there is always the fear, at least, of the suburb effect; ie everything moving out to the new and jumping spot. But, IMO, downtown is (currently at least) strong enough to, not only hold it's own, but continue to grow. Perhaps Woodruff road is proof of this, as it has not hampered DT growth too much.

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Very true. People are also drawn to places that have a sense of authenticity. Downtown is the result of organic growth over a period of time, with the architecture and other facets of its urban fabric reflecting that. While I don't have anything against developments like Verdae per se, they simply do not have that sense of place that can only come with time.

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Perhaps instead of creating developer led artificial town centers, it might be best to concentrate alternate town centers in places like the center of Traveler's Rest, Simpsonville, Fountain Inn, etc. I even expect within the next 20 year Tigerville to be a regular town. Traveler's Rest will probably an effective gateway to the mountains.

Thing is that all of these actual town centers are places where real people live and have reason to at least pass through. Most town centers mentioned here, Tyson's Corner, Buckhead, Southpark, etc, places I've been through, are more upper middle class/ upper class playgrounds than real centers of community.

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Perhaps instead of creating developer led artificial town centers, it might be best to concentrate alternate town centers in places like the center of Traveler's Rest, Simpsonville, Fountain Inn, etc. I even expect within the next 20 year Tigerville to be a regular town. Traveler's Rest will probably an effective gateway to the mountains.

Thing is that all of these actual town centers are places where real people live and have reason to at least pass through. Most town centers mentioned here, Tyson's Corner, Buckhead, Southpark, etc, places I've been through, are more upper middle class/ upper class playgrounds than real centers of community.

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Perhaps instead of creating developer led artificial town centers, it might be best to concentrate alternate town centers in places like the center of Traveler's Rest, Simpsonville, Fountain Inn, etc. I even expect within the next 20 year Tigerville to be a regular town. Traveler's Rest will probably an effective gateway to the mountains.

...

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I agree, transportation is going to be a huge key for truly linking this development to DT and other parts of gville. Transportation is going to be key for all of greenville, as it's growth continues to pick up even more steam. But remember, 85 is going to run right by this developemnt. So, in a few decades, this could be the new center of gville, with DT being "the old part of town" or even a "historic district." I am not saying I think this is what will happen, but it is possible. By that time, gville will certainly need a new arena, concert hall, museums, etc, and they might just go somewhere like Verdae. Just food for thought.

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  • 4 weeks later...

With the announced changes to Mag Park, and the incredible plans for the point, I thought this thread may need to be revisited. With DT's recent efforts to attract national retailers (with little success), and recent closings on main st, DT's hopes of becoming a retail destination seem to be fading into the sunset. If all of these I-85/Woodruff centers happen, people will have little need to shop DT at all. It is a shame some of these stores could not have been announced for DT, to help keep it the center of Gville. One of the developers could have even bought out university square and put up a smaller but similar development. Think how much that could have impacted DT. It is not impossible that entertainment venues, then some of DT's restaurants will be built in this area, and eventually the current DT may become "The Old Greenville." In 30 years, DT may be in this I-85/Woodruf/385 mess. Food for thought...

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Before this, I only considered this area just another place. But with this fantastic news, I truly think another urban activity center has potential. Uptown Greenville anyone??? Think about it. The Shops at Gridlock are supposedly a pedestrian friendly town center, Magnolia park is an urban center in itself, Verdae is right there, and now this will have dense housing, South Financial, and office as well as retail space. I'm excited. Who cares about traffic woes! This is exciting. :shades:

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