John McCain for President

[monsoon]

^First you raise the straw man of following the Pope simply because they can draw crowds. i.e. they are lemmings. Yet nobody has said this is they are for Obama, except for Obama's critics. Then you state because of this, there is nothing to people like this, and you throw in a couple of music entertainers to re-enforce the point, except that they are popular. It's another fallacy argument.

If you can find an Obama supporter here, who has said they are voting for him simply because he can draw crowds, then I will stand corrected.

However forgetting all of that, most people that I know who go to concerts, who go to see the Pope, and endure crowds to see politicians, do so not because of this notion of celebrity. They do so because they want to hear their message, whether it be through music or words.

[Neo]

However forgetting all of that, most people that I know who go to concerts, who go to see the Pope, and endure crowds to see politicians, do so not because of this notion of celebrity. They do so because they want to hear their message, whether it be through music or words.

For sure, just because some country singer sells out a concert doesn't mean I'm going to try and get tickets...I'm just not interested in their type of music or what they're singing about. Likewise I'm not an Obama supporter who is simply following him because it seems "the thing to do" or because everyone else is doing it...I'm an Obama supporter because I believe what he believes and what he stands for. I would wager other Obama supporters are the same.

The comparison of Obama and Hitler in drawing crowds is ridiculous and should never have been brought up. It's the same tactics being used as McCain...when you don't have much to reach for you end up reaching further.

[Justadude]

The concept behind the ad was to lump Obama in with Hilton and Spears as frivolous, narcissistic celebrities. Of course the real message is that Obama voters are nothing more than a tabloid fanbase.

[Charlotte_native]

It's difficult to see where they're going with this -- perhaps to stick him with the "celebrity" label and then tabloid-ize him in the media in October? Not a very strong case to make against him, and one that runs a serious risk of coming across as dirty politics. But it makes me wonder if McCain's people have (or will create) some kind of dirt on Obama that fits into that sort of plan. Otherwise the "celebrity" comments seem directionless IMO.

[Justadude]

Seems to be working -- the AP reports that Obama's 9-point lead has vanished in recent days. The negative campaigning is cited in the reports as a reason for the rally by McCain, but I suspect it has more to do with Obama's shifts in key stances. Today's news that Obama now supports some offshore drilling should provide another boost for McCain.

[Gusterfell]

^Some of it may be due to the perception that Obama has shifted on some issues, but McCain has shifted at least as much. He often gives contradictory stances within the same day. I agree with the reports that it is largely the attack ads that has erased Obama's lead. As much as people claim to be disgusted by negative campaigning, it has been proven to work more reliably than any other tactic.

Despite what the GOP likes to say, Obama has not really changed his stance on offshore drilling. He has never said he was opposed to limited drilling, but he has said that drilling would have little to no effect on short-term oil prices. That is still his stance today, although now he is emphasizing that he is willing to make drilling an active part of his long-term energy plan. Where I come from that is called compromise, rather than flip-flopping, and it is a sign of a good statesman.

[erdogs]

That is still his stance today, although now he is emphasizing that he is willing to make drilling an active part of his long-term energy plan. Where I come from that is called compromise, rather than flip-flopping, and it is a sign of a good statesman.

[monsoon]

moveon.org is not part of the democratic party. Seems to me they have been quite critical of some democrats. They have been more critical of the GOP but then again look at their record since 2000. Dismal doesn't even come close to describe it.

[erdogs]

moveon.org is not part of the democratic party. Seems to me they have been quite critical of some democrats. They have been more critical of the GOP but then again look at their record since 2000. Dismal doesn't even come close to describe it.

[Charlotte_native]

Where I come from that is called compromise, rather than flip-flopping, and it is a sign of a good statesman.

[Justadude]

Offshore drilling is one place where Democrats can afford to "flex" a little to pick up moderate voters and possibly make their policies more effective. I am generally in favor of restricting oil exploration, especially in environmentally-impactful areas like the ocean, but on the other hand I am more in favor of energy independence. So Obama's shift in position doesn't bother me much in this case.

The problems will arise when the swiftboating starts, and everything becomes a "flip flop" if it contradicts any other position taken in the past 20 years. Obama has a lot to gain from moving toward the middle -- especially since McCain actually seems to be inexplicably drifting away from the middle -- but every shift in stance represents a chance for the GOP to flank him as inconsistent or insincere.

Of course this is exactly why our democracy is so fundamentally broken, but that's for another thread.

[Charlotte_native]

The problems will arise when the swiftboating starts, and everything becomes a "flip flop" if it contradicts any other position taken in the past 20 years. Obama has a lot to gain from moving toward the middle -- especially since McCain actually seems to be inexplicably drifting away from the middle

[Gusterfell]

^I agree, though I have a feeling that to a large portion of the electorate it is a graver sin for a Democrat to flip over the course of a decade than it is for a Republican to flop between breakfast and dinner.

[Charlotteman]

........Mr. Maverick of the Republican Party suddenly sounds like Mr. Generic Republican.

[Lowerdeck]

Offshore drilling is one place where Democrats can afford to "flex" a little to pick up moderate voters and possibly make their policies more effective. I am generally in favor of restricting oil exploration, especially in environmentally-impactful areas like the ocean, but on the other hand I am more in favor of energy independence. So Obama's shift in position doesn't bother me much in this case.