Dillard Creek Commons | Creekside Village

[GRDadof3]

Bass Pro Shops and Cabela's are starting to be a dime a dozen, so they're really diluting their "tourist attraction" claim. They're talking about building a Cabela's just North of Grand Rapids (in Walker), and they're seeking $15 Million in subsidies, which would probably be more like $25 Million once they add in exemption from State sales taxes. The city of Walker has said no, and the State of Michigan is saying they do not subsidize retail. The sporting good chain Gander Mountain, which doesn't need subsidies to be successful, has begun a campaign seeking to put an end to tax subsidies for these two companies, which just take business away from other sporting good stores (no real net jobs). Competition is fine, but not when the playing field is given an unfair advantage to big box retailers.

Many states are starting to say no, and it isn't driving these retailers away.

If you want to read the discussion from the Grand Rapids section, you can go here.

There are also websites to end this silly subsidization of outdoor retail disguised as a tourist attraction.

[Spartan]

Bass Pro Shops and Cabela's are starting to be a dime a dozen, so they're really diluting their "tourist attraction" claim. They're talking about building a Cabela's just North of Grand Rapids (in Walker), and they're seeking $15 Million in subsidies, which would probably be more like $25 Million once they add in exemption from State sales taxes. The city of Walker has said no, and the State of Michigan is saying they do not subsidize retail. The sporting good chain Gander Mountain, which doesn't need subsidies to be successful, has begun a campaign seeking to put an end to tax subsidies for these two companies, which just take business away from other sporting good stores (no real net jobs). Competition is fine, but not when the playing field is given an unfair advantage to big box retailers.

Many states are starting to say no, and it isn't driving these retailers away.

If you want to read the discussion from the Grand Rapids section, you can go here.

There are also websites to end this silly subsidization of outdoor retail disguised as a tourist attraction.

That is fantastic to know. I disagree with the notion of subsidizing retail, especially big box retail.

[RestedTraveler]

...there is a similiar development being built in Buffalo, NY right now that will include one...

I wonder if they'll be selling a lot of barrels?

That is fantastic to know. I disagree with the notion of subsidizing retail, especially big box retail.

I agree 100%. I'm all for a BPS locataing somewhere in the upstate because I feel they still do have a strong draw; however, if we have to make concessions to get one, forget it. I'd rather use that money to lure more corporate HQ type developments and high-paying jobs to the area.

[btoy]

I think when these deals come up you need to look at where the money is comeing from. Is it actually taxes that have been collected and then beind doled out to a private individual, or is it just taxes that they would make that are being forgone? For Example lets say the Tax Revenue from a BPS is $25 million over 20 years if say they are giving them a $12.5 million credit then the state or county is still up $12.5 million but if that is $12.5 million.

[mallguy]

It's taxes foregone but if government is still going to provide the same level of services that it would otherwise provide, the rest of us have to pay the difference that the retailer isn't paying. That doesn't seem fair to me.

[GRDadof3]

It's taxes foregone but if government is still going to provide the same level of services that it would otherwise provide, the rest of us have to pay the difference that the retailer isn't paying. That doesn't seem fair to me.

Exactly. Most of the time the incentives are in the form of Tax Increment Financing or other credits toward future financing or tax liability that the retailer would normally owe, and mainly at the state level (most small municipalities targeted do not have enough to give away). They have also been asking for exemption from State sales taxes. That one really irks me. How do they possibly believe that they should be exempt from sales tax that every other retailer must collect? Especially when the tax incentives come at the state level, the only way the lost tax money is "made" up down the road is if enough commerce comes from "outside" the state that is giving the tax credit. But with these stores cropping up all over, fewer and fewer people are crossing state lines to visit these stores. It's just a shell game, with money not being taken from the retailer, but being taken from somewhere else (we taxpayers), all so we can look at stuffed elk while buying that new kayak. Gander Mountain has shown that for every 1 job created by Cabela's, 1 job is taken from another retailer in the existing retail market in the area. So then if the retailer is exempt from other taxes, and there is no net job gains, where is the benefit of the tax breaks? More highway interchanges to be maintained, more police and fire protection, more mammoth parking lots for runoff into lakes and streams, more traffic (usually not in urban areas but in "exurban areas). 0 sum.

For instance, in Michigan, there is already a Cabela's South of Detroit near the Ohio border, a Bass Pro Shops North of Detroit, and a Cabela's being built in Northern Indiana near the Michigan border. How many out-of-state visitors would a Cabela's in Grand Rapids draw? Very few is the answer.

Anyway, that's my take on the whole thing. I'm not against any Cabela's, just not them taking money out of my wallet while I'm not even shopping there.

(Especially since states like Maine said "no" to tax incentives, but still welcomed them with open arms, and Cabela's built anyway).

Good luck Greenville!

[g-man430]

I'm still for a Bass Pro Shops and always will be. BPS creates jobs just like a business getting tax incentives would too. You guys were for one and now are against one, because you found out one little secret about them, which I find to be rather sad.

[g-man430]

Bass Pro has toured Greenville and the upstate market multiple times. They have not toured this site since the developer has gotten it under contract. The same developer is working with them on a site in South Asheville off Airport Road which they are very far down the road with BPS on. BPS pointed them in the direction of the upstate and specifically Greenville mentioning they would like a store there in addition to Asheville.

From my understanding BPS will be back in the market within the next 30 days to review this specific site and give them a better feel for being able to get a BPS deal done or not.

How do you know this?

[RestedTraveler]

I'm still for a Bass Pro Shops and always will be. BPS creates jobs just like a business getting tax incentives would too. You guys were for one and now are against one, because you found out one little secret about them, which I find to be rather sad.

I'm not disputing that BPS would create a couple hundred jobs...what I'm concerned about is how much those people are paid relative to say an IT professional or an engineering professional. I just think that incentives of this nature can be best applied elsewhere, that's all. I'm still for BPS, but the price tag seems a bit steep to me.

And, oh, by the way - this is not a secret nor is it newly discovered, g-man. Somebody mentioned this very topic in the Greenville Mall/Magnolia Place thread; however, my understanding of it then was that it was the developer (not the tax payer) that had to pay the incentives to lure them to be part of the development. I can understand a developer making such concessions to lure other major tenants to a project. I can't support government either wasting existing tax revenue or foregoing future tax revenue for a retailer, though. Perhaps a distribution center for a retailer, maybe...but not one retail store. That's just a poor use of the money, in my humble opinion, when there are better uses for it.

[g-man430]

^^...but how do they know this about BPS looking at the area? Are they hiding something? I know it's wrong to take money from the war in Iraq and actually spend it on something useful, but I can't help it. I just love BPS too much to let them not build a store in this area over some money.

[g-man430]

I just realized something. Magnolia Park Town Center has new developers, so it is possible one could potentially locate at that site. Don't forget about the new development coming to the point, Rosewood Mall in Anderson, or this site at highway 14 and I-85 either. Chances are good one of these sites will definitely try to get one.

[Greenville]

I just realized something. Magnolia Park Town Center has new developers, so it is possible one could potentially locate at that site. Don't forget about the new development coming to the point, Rosewood Mall in Anderson, or this site at highway 14 and I-85 either. Chances are good one of these sites will definitely try to get one.

I don't think there is room for a Bass Pro Shops at Magnolia Park. Their stores are huge, and with Costco and Rooms to Go comprising the big box section it seems that BPS isn't doable there.

If BPS wants to be at the I-85/Highway 14 development that is fine with me - provided that there are no publicly-funded incentives helping them do so.

[Spartan]

I'm still for a Bass Pro Shops and always will be. BPS creates jobs just like a business getting tax incentives would too. You guys were for one and now are against one, because you found out one little secret about them, which I find to be rather sad.

The economic multiplier effect is much larger for industries than it is for retail. Thats the whole premise behind tax incentives for large companies. Its not the jobs they create so much as it is the jobs that are created to support the jobs that are created (and so on). Thats basic economics.

[greenvilleguy]

Inside sources from within Target say that a SuperTarget at this site is a "done deal!!"

Maybe that is one of the "department stores" mentioned in the article. Can anyone else confirm?

[g-man430]

Inside sources from within Target say that a SuperTarget at this site is a "done deal!!"

Maybe that is one of the "department stores" mentioned in the article. Can anyone else confirm?

Tell me your inside sources and then i'll tell you if your right or not.

[g-man430]

I don't think there is room for a Bass Pro Shops at Magnolia Park. Their stores are huge, and with Costco and Rooms to Go comprising the big box section it seems that BPS isn't doable there.

If BPS wants to be at the I-85/Highway 14 development that is fine with me - provided that there are no publicly-funded incentives helping them do so.

So we can give over $400 billion to a war were not winning, but we can't give $15-$25 million to a Bass Pro Shops to be built here? Yeah, that seems to make a whole lot of sense. Does anybody know how Myrtle Beach got theirs? Did the state provide any incentives for that store and if they did, how much? How do you guys know BPS is even looking in this area? It seems to be all rumors to me. I want some hard evidence that shows they are looking in this area, not just some people saying they are. Don't you just love my avatar too.

[Greenville]

So we can give over $400 billion to a war were not winning, but we can't give $15-$25 million to a Bass Pro Shops to be built here? Yeah, that seems to make a whole lot of sense. Does anybody know how Myrtle Beach got theirs? Did the state provide any incentives for that store and if they did, how much? How do you guys know BPS is even looking in this area? It seems to be all rumors to me. I want some hard evidence that shows they are looking in this area, not just some people saying they are. Don't you just love my avatar too.

G-man, the money used to fund the war in Iraq is not the same money that would be used to provide incentives for a Bass Pro Shops. I think you know that, deep down. Apples and oranges...

I am not sure how Bass Pro Shops ended up in Myrtle Beach, but I would be shocked if the state gave them any money to do so. Perhaps BPS saw the demand in Myrtle Beach and proceeded without any incentives. And that is exactly what I hope happens in Greenville.

Third, I thought you said (here, or maybe on another forum) that Bass Pro Shops is strongly considering being a part of this complex at I-85 and Highway 14. You made it sound like you had insider information on the project, and that we could count on it happening. Has that changed, or do I have you confused with someone else?

Wasn't there mention of this in the Spartanburg Herald-Journal within the last few weeks?

[g-man430]

^^True about the first part. I wouldn't be that shocked if South Carolina gave incentives to Bass Pro Shops seeing how this is a fairly conservative state with lots of hunting and fishing. You and I both know almost everybody that lives here would bend over for a BPS here and would do just about anything to get one. The information I had regarding the Bass Pro Shops at I-85 and Highway 14 came from a source, but I can't confirm whether it is reliable or not. The source said that the developer is currently trying to land a BPS at the site, but whether that happens or not is remained to be seen. Yes, the Herald-Journal did mention BPS being a part of this development a few weeks ago.

-Dealman seems to have better sources than I do.

[greenvilleguy]

Tell me your inside sources and then i'll tell you if your right or not.

I know I'm right

[g-man430]

I know I'm right

I'll trade the Super Target for a Nordstrom. I wonder what some other retailers and restaurants are going to be at this site. Should be very interesting I would think.

[breed]

Exactly. Most of the time the incentives are in the form of Tax Increment Financing or other credits toward future financing or tax liability that the retailer would normally owe, and mainly at the state level (most small municipalities targeted do not have enough to give away).

Just a clarification, Tax Increment Financing is not a subsidy. It allows a jurisdiction to collect the same amount of taxes from a property owner, but to earmark those funds for revitalization purposes. But in the end, the owner is paying the same amount of taxes.

I disagree with the notion of subsidizing retail...

Just playing devil's advocate... what about Mast? Is that inappropriate too? If not, why?

[GSP Tiger]

Confirmation Bass Pro Shops is being targeted as an anchor for the site:

Article: House's budget might set aside funds for area projects

Spartanburg (SC) Herald-Journal/GoUpstate.com (3/1/2007)

It would offer parks, shops, food stores, a cinema, restaurants, office space, department stores, nature exhibits, recreational activities, furniture stores, and automotive, marine craft and aircraft retail.

Article: Proposed urban village bigger than Haywood Mall

Greenville (SC) News/GreenvilleOnline.com (4/15/2007)

Nature exhibits, recreational activities, a restaurant, and marine craft retail is not uncommon in a Bass Pro Shops location. If you ever been to one, you woul be familiar with their Tracker Marine Boat Center, Islamorada Fish Company restaurant, frequent recreational demostrations and workshops, and natural exhibits focusing of the location's nearby wildlife.

[DealMan]

In regard to Target, the developer Collett and Associates has a good relationship with Target RE team, and they have the ability to get the deal done. The question will remain whether they will want to keep fighting to try and find a Pelham Road deal, or if they will shift their attention to Highway 14. If the developer can lock down a BPS, Target will definitely take a hard look at Hwy. 14.

My concerns for retailers interested in that corridor is the industrial feel to the area, that the developers will have to overcome to get nicer retailers to focus.

I definitely envision a theater being a part of that development as well, given that it is 5 miles from Magnolia Park and outside of the stadium theater 3-4 mile ring radius rule.

[GRDadof3]

Just a clarification, Tax Increment Financing is not a subsidy. It allows a jurisdiction to collect the same amount of taxes from a property owner, but to earmark those funds for revitalization purposes. But in the end, the owner is paying the same amount of taxes.

Just playing devil's advocate... what about Mast? Is that inappropriate too? If not, why?

Well it is a form of subsidy, because the funds are generally diverted to improvements in infrastructure on that particular project, instead of the general fund. Something that the developer should be paying for him/herself. I'm not against TIF's per se, but generally they are needed when a project has certain challenges that make it difficult to accomplish economically, such as for affordable housing or a brownfield development. But Cabela's and Bass Pro Shops almost never build in an urban challenged area. They choose big greenfields usually 45 - 60 minutes outside of a city center, in an area that is poorly served by utilities (so all new utilities need to be run), next to a busy highway (and they always want their own interchange or nearby ones greatly expanded), which adds a burden to taxpayers down the road. In addition, they always claim they will draw xx Millions of visitors a year (usually 4 - 6 Million visitors a year) and say they will be the biggest tourist attraction in the State. Check with the biggest mall in your area and find out how much traffic they get a year. It's probably close to that without any subsidies from taxpayers.

Seriously, if they were a good solvent business they wouldn't need these handouts to the tune of $25 - $100 Million per store. They even tout tax credits as being vital to profits on their quarterly and annual reports. What kind of business are they running? Stuffed dear and elk and a big fake mountain do not a museum make.

Southern states, with exponential growth, giving out tax incentives to lure retail business is ludicrous. If Michigan is saying no (despite needing job growth), I can't see why every other state in the country is doing it.

I thought this was an "urban-oriented" forum??

[btoy]

In regard to Target, the developer Collett and Associates has a good relationship with Target RE team, and they have the ability to get the deal done. The question will remain whether they will want to keep fighting to try and find a Pelham Road deal, or if they will shift their attention to Highway 14. If the developer can lock down a BPS, Target will definitely take a hard look at Hwy. 14.

My concerns for retailers interested in that corridor is the industrial feel to the area, that the developers will have to overcome to get nicer retailers to focus.

I definitely envision a theater being a part of that development as well, given that it is 5 miles from Magnolia Park and outside of the stadium theater 3-4 mile ring radius rule.

I would argue that the section of Pelham Rd. they were looking at is much more of an industrial area than The HWY 14 Location. BTW, that fact that that section of Pelham Rd. is so industrial is a product of the Airport Environs.