Parking problem downtown - too much of it? Not enough?

[Grand Rapidian]

I guess I was not clear. For a user I totally understand the value. But at $125 per space in revenue to the City it is hard to justify spending $51,000 to build it. Assuming $25 per month in operating costs (which is way lower than reality), it would take the city 42.5 years to get the lot paid back without interest. Because ramps tend to have a 25 year useful life there is no justfication (financially) for this lot. Honestly, I am not even sure how they will ever repay the bonds and by law if they cannot repay them from parking revenues, the shortfall comes out of the City's general fund. Last time I checked there did not seem to be a surplus there either.

Some might argue that this is exactly why we need the City to own the downtown parking. I suggest that this is poor stewadship of our limited government resources and thus exactly why they should not be in the parking business.

Ah, okay. I understand now what you are saying. You bring up a good point if those numbers are all correct.

[dragt]

If one were to take the bus, BRT, LRT, Street Car or (any other form for that matter) it will cost about $2 or more each way. at $4 per day, 30 days a week equals $120

If your buying parking on a monthly basis you must compare buying transit on a monthly (rather than daily basis). A monthly transit pass is currently $35 per month! Which, in my opinion, is a heck of a bargain for all the freedom it offers.

[can't remember the last time I paid attention to gas prices or cared... that's freedom!]

[GRDadof3]

If your buying parking on a monthly basis you must compare buying transit on a monthly (rather than daily basis). A monthly transit pass is currently $35 per month! Which, in my opinion, is a heck of a bargain for all the freedom it offers.

[can't remember the last time I paid attention to gas prices or cared... that's freedom!]

Yes, but it wouldn't be $35/month for a commuter service from the suburbs to downtown. That would probably be more like $50 - $75/month, based on other cities rates I've looked at. Some might argue that suburbanites should use the RAPID system, but 45 minutes to get to downtown is unacceptable for most commuters.

DJL, I though the final cost of the Heartside ramp came in around $14.5 Million for just under 400 spots, or about $35K/space?

My whole intent of this thread is this:

1) There is too much parking downtown to house people's cars all day. It is robbing downtown of much needed viability by creating giant "holes" in the urban fabric. It breaks up the much needed critical mass with dead space. Are you going to get everyone who works downtown to give up their cars? Of course not. But even getting 1/4 or 1/3 of those people to agree to park outside of downtown and shuttle in (at a lower cost than a parking ramp space downtown) would alleviate the need to pave over 1/3 of the downtown area, which is precious finite land worth far more than vacant suburban land.

2) Whether parking should be run by the city or run privately to be honest is over my head and beyond my expertise. The one worry I have is that I believe all these DASH surface lots should eventually be redeveloped. Under who's control is that more likely to occur sooner? The city's or a private owner's? That is debatable.

3) My intent was not so that people could then say to visitors to downtown to stop complaining that there is no place to park. There may be plenty of places to park for visitors to downtown, but the communication of the availability of parking, and the cost, is inconvenient and expensive compared to other places in the metro area. I think their beef is somewhat legitimate.

If you go back to the beginning of this thread (if you haven't already), you can see graphics showing just how much land now is devoted to surface lots.

[MarKBMO]

I still think the commuter costs in Grand Rapids are waaaay too close to Chicago costs, without nearly the benefit. I lived there for twelve years; just moved back to GR last winter. I am shocked that I'm paying only two or three dollars less for parking; the meters are MORE expensive; and now there's talk of a light rail pass from a GR suburb for $75??? I paid only $95 from a suburb 25 miles outside Chicago! And had access to the shows, restaurants, shopping, jobs, lakeshore, museums...

I understand--and agree--that there is too much surface area in downtown Grand Rapids devoted to parking. That doesn't mean it's convenient to go downtown. No, people driving into downtown won't walk more than a couple blocks. No, people won't pay a lot without griping--or turning around and heading to the 'burbs. They do what's easiest, and, I can tell you from years of experience, taking the train from park-and-ride lots ain't easy. Don't get me wrong--it's a great option to have for daily commuters, but that doesn't even begin to fix the let's-go-downtown-to-eat-or-shop problem.

Any reason why GR can't do what Naperville, Illinois does with it's downtown parking? (Naperville pop. ~150,000, with a county population of ~932,000). Naperville created Special Service Areas to specifically pay for FREE parking.

Recent memorandum discussing the SSAs

http://www.naperville.il.us/emplibrary/4-1...20Worksheet.pdf

[Parhelion]

I think having a spot downtown is worth over $100/mo., but am interested to know if it's possible to buy a spot rather than rent it. Does anyone know whether this is possible?

[GRDadof3]

I think having a spot downtown is worth over $100/mo., but am interested to know if it's possible to buy a spot rather than rent it. Does anyone know whether this is possible?

I don't think so Parhelion, except for certain condo projects in their own parking ramps. I'm almost positive the city won't "sell" parking spaces, but you could check with Ellis Parking though to see if they do in their lots.

[DJL3CDP]

DJL, I though the final cost of the Heartside ramp came in around $14.5 Million for just under 400 spots, or about $35K/space?

My whole intent of this thread is this...

I believe that the numbers you quoted did not include the cash that the City put up. But even if those numbers are correct, at $35k per space the things still do not pay out. ($100 per month in profit x 300 month useful life = 30,000 at no interest and assuming the profit is $100).

Either way, I think your point about why the thread exists is valid. Look at those pictures and you get shocked at how much surface auto storage there is and how little it is needed/used The city needs the density for humans not vehicles. It is higher density that will keep retailers downtown etc.

I think I pointed out before, in other cities, walking 5-6 blocks to park is not that unusual. We are just not conditioned here. And maybe I am wrong but the last time I visited Chicago, it cost me $40 to park overnight. Makes our $10 seem cheap to me...maybe I picked the worst place to park.

Edited June 28, 2007 by DJL3CDP

[Prankster]

And maybe I am wrong but the last time I visited Chicago, it cost me $40 to park overnight. Makes our $10 seem cheap to me...maybe I picked the worst place to park.

No, that is about average in most ramps in Chicago.

[Rizzo]

Anyone more curious in what area the increased parking demand is coming from? I'd like to know where most of these parking spaces are warranted. If we can determine where the most spaces are needed this might give us more insight into specific industries that might be expanding downtown. It might also help further investigate the possibilities of commuter routes.

[GRDadof3]

Anyone more curious in what area the increased parking demand is coming from? I'd like to know where most of these parking spaces are warranted. If we can determine where the most spaces are needed this might give us more insight into specific industries that might be expanding downtown. It might also help further investigate the possibilities of commuter routes.

I think going all the way back to 2001 or 2002, the Monroe North Business Association has been asking for a new parking ramp.

[MarKBMO]

Hmm. Don't know where you were parking in Chicago (except at a hotel, if you were staying overnight, and yes they'll gouge you), but most lots I know of have a $26 maximum rate for 24 hours. Long term parking in Chicago is expensive.

(For those into maps: http://www.chicagoparkingmap.com/)

Short-term is different. Those are the prices that are too close to Chicago rates without Chicago's amenities. I could park downtown Chicago on Michigan Avenue for $13 a day. What's the lot by the Federal building in GR up to? $14.50? And $12 a few blocks away? I can get $8 in some city lots, but I also paid that the other night at an Ellis lot to eat at Bull's Head for a couple hours. I paid only $10 to park in Wrigleyville for dinner last month.

Perception is reality. As long as people in GR think it's a hassle to go downtown, navigate construction, find a lot open after 6 that doesn't have event parking, and walk, then it *is* a hassle. Instead of saying "get over it and walk," we should instead be figuring out how to make it seem less of a hassle. Light rail is long term; what can be done in the short term?

MK

[DwntwnGeo]

Hmm. Don't know where you were parking in Chicago (except at a hotel, if you were staying overnight, and yes they'll gouge you), but most lots I know of have a $26 maximum rate for 24 hours. Long term parking in Chicago is expensive.

(For those into maps: http://www.chicagoparkingmap.com/)

Short-term is different. Those are the prices that are too close to Chicago rates without Chicago's amenities. I could park downtown Chicago on Michigan Avenue for $13 a day. What's the lot by the Federal building in GR up to? $14.50? And $12 a few blocks away? I can get $8 in some city lots, but I also paid that the other night at an Ellis lot to eat at Bull's Head for a couple hours. I paid only $10 to park in Wrigleyville for dinner last month.

Perception is reality. As long as people in GR think it's a hassle to go downtown, navigate construction, find a lot open after 6 that doesn't have event parking, and walk, then it *is* a hassle. Instead of saying "get over it and walk," we should instead be figuring out how to make it seem less of a hassle. Light rail is long term; what can be done in the short term?

MK

Just because a lot states "Event Parking" doesn't mean that you cannot park there for a couple hours and pay the hourly rate instead of the "event" rate. I have done this before when going downtown for dinner or something and lot wants $6 or $8 dolllars for event parking that night. I simply state that I am not going to the event and would like a regular ticket. A few hours later when I leave, I give my ticket to the person at the booth and pay my hourly rates.

I do agree that this option is not really advertised very well and most people going to a parking garage/lot see the event charge and believe that is what they have to pay just to get a spot that night.

[GRDadof3]

Just because a lot states "Event Parking" doesn't mean that you cannot park there for a couple hours and pay the hourly rate instead of the "event" rate. I have done this before when going downtown for dinner or something and lot wants $6 or $8 dolllars for event parking that night. I simply state that I am not going to the event and would like a regular ticket. A few hours later when I leave, I give my ticket to the person at the booth and pay my hourly rates.

I do agree that this option is not really advertised very well and most people going to a parking garage/lot see the event charge and believe that is what they have to pay just to get a spot that night.

I would venture to guess most people would not know to ask for a regular ticket so they can just pay an hourly rate. When there are big signs out front that say "Event Parking $7", I assume that's what the sign means. And between the convention center and the arena, it seems that every night is an "event night", so every evening at 6:00, when people would be coming downtown for shopping and dinner, parking looks really expensive.

I never pay the event rates, they're just ludicrous. I drive around downtown until I find a cheaper alternative, which is either a meter after enforcement hours, or another lot somewhere (we have our secret lot as backup).

My experience with Chicago is about $35 - $40/night at the major hotels. A great reason to ride commuter rail. 3 nights/$120 is a lot of money. I just read that the JW Marriott will have $16/night parking, which is the night rate at the AGP ramp apparently.

I think an effective alternative would be to give retailers the ability to validate parking. Pretty much all the offices will do it for you if you have an appointment downtown, don't they?

[Rizzo]

I think going all the way back to 2001 or 2002, the Monroe North Business Association has been asking for a new parking ramp.

By coincidence Knape has a pdf today of Monroe North planning.

If Monroe North is to become a dense, lively and walkable urban district, a shift from surface to structured

parking will be required. New developments must be encouraged (or required) to provide on-site

structured parking and serious consideration should be given to providing public structured parking, as

well.

-- http://www.mlive.com/grpress/documents/200...monroenorth.pdf (page 14)

[DJL3CDP]

Got me MK! Last summer, Downtown Chicago Hotel, In/Out was $40 for 24 hours. $26 is a bit more than we pay and there are still parking bargains in GR too (like Dash lots for $25 per month that are within a few blocks of the core of downtown).

Sadly, unlike Chicago, we have few options for alternative transportation. When I lived Chicago we took the bus, the El, or the Metra as often as possible (it was faster, cheaper, easier and more reliable). There were lots of routes and transfer stations and things ran pretty frequently. We have the Rapid which is less robust.

[DJL3CDP]

I would venture to guess most people would not know to ask for a regular ticket so they can just pay an hourly rate.

So, after you said this a few months back, I went out for dinner downtown, asked for a ticket and apparently stayed too long. Instead of $7, I think I paid like $8. My wife laughed at me and said something like "nice one Mr. Parking."

Seems to me that the downtown restaurants & clubs could work a deal with the City on parking discounts...do the restaurant owners not think it is an issue? If parking were free on say Tuesday nights (for instance) would anyone go downtown more? What about if a restaurant validated the parking of you got 50% discount or a free desert or something...? Just a thought...

Edited June 30, 2007 by DJL3CDP

[suydam]

So, after you said this a few months back, I went out for dinner downtown, asked for a ticket and apparently stayed too long. Instead of $7, I think I paid like $8. My wife laughed at me and said something like "nice one Mr. Parking."

Seems to me that the downtown restaurants & clubs could work a deal with the City on parking discounts...do the restaurant owners not think it is an issue? If parking were free on say Tuesday nights (for instance) would anyone go downtown more? What about if a restaurant validated the parking of you got 50% discount or a free desert or something...? Just a thought...

Cost plays in for the lunch crowd big time. Heck, I'm a downtown supporter but when it costs me $1.50 to park for my $4.99 chinese buffet I start thinking "hmmm...there's that place in eastown across from Yesterdog" and voila! Hong Kong Express loses out on a lunch customer and I'm driving into Eastown where I can park for 60 minutes on $0.25.

If they could validate, or if downtown picked up the "free 30 minutes" meters that downtown Kalamazoo uses I'd never bother driving to Eastown for lunch.

[jbr12]

I don't understand why DT doesn't do a parking validation program. Downtown Ann Arbor does it without that program, I surely would've went shopping in the 'burbs instead of downtown. I think downtown AA was like a 2 hour program. I don't see why GR can't impliment a program even remotely similar

[wingbert]

I don't understand why DT doesn't do a parking validation program. Downtown Ann Arbor does it without that program, I surely would've went shopping in the 'burbs instead of downtown. I think downtown AA was like a 2 hour program. I don't see why GR can't impliment a program even remotely similar

I believe the bars/restaurants near the arena (Bar Divani, etc.) banded together and asked the city for some type of parking validation program that they could implement on non-event nights in order to drive business even when there wasn't a show or concert to bring people in. This was a year or so ago. Anyway, the city/parking commission shot them down without much debate. I thought it was a great idea and I thought it was very wise for them to aim it at non-event nights so it didn't threaten the "event parking" income. I could not believe how easily it was dismissed. Really gave the impression that if you were going to come downtown the city planned to wring every cent out of you they could regardless of the situation. At least that is what I remember thinking of it. I could have the details all wrong but perception is reality for simple person like me.

[suydam]

I believe the bars/restaurants near the arena (Bar Divani, etc.) banded together and asked the city for some type of parking validation program that they could implement on non-event nights in order to drive business even when there wasn't a show or concert to bring people in. This was a year or so ago. Anyway, the city/parking commission shot them down without much debate. I thought it was a great idea and I thought it was very wise for them to aim it at non-event nights so it didn't threaten the "event parking" income. I could not believe how easily it was dismissed. Really gave the impression that if you were going to come downtown the city planned to wring every cent out of you they could regardless of the situation. At least that is what I remember thinking of it. I could have the details all wrong but perception is reality for simple person like me.

They shouldn't even have to band together...and I'll reiterate that $8/night parking kills the cheaper places even more than the expensive places.

I don't mind paying $6-$8 to park when I'm dropping $100 at San Chez or more at the Chop House.

When I just wanted a Cottage Burger and a pint of Oberon it's a different story.

[Rizzo]

From the Automobile Parking Commission site:

The Commission sets parking rates, determines marketing strategies, recommends the locations and capital improvements for public parking lots and ramps.

The Commission consists of nine members who have contact with downtown or neighborhood business districts and are able to reflect diverse user interests including retailing, building ownership, convention, housing, consumer, public transportation, and neighborhood groups. The membership may also include a member of the City Commission.

Does anyone know if the Parking Commission is in collaboration with the KIAS Marketing campaign? Was a marketing strategy for parking developed along side the current downtown marketing campaign? Or, if retailers are having their interests represented on the board?

Edited July 2, 2007 by Rizzo

[Veloise]

From the Automobile Parking Commission site:

Does anyone know if the Parking Commission is in collaboration with the KIAS Marketing campaign? Was a marketing strategy for parking developed along side the current downtown marketing campaign? Or, if retailers are having their interests represented on the board?

Dunno, but...similar logic is suggested.

[gvsusean]

why do we charge for on street parking?? you dont in the burbs.. and i realize that land values are higher but, on street?

[suydam]

why do we charge for on street parking?? you dont in the burbs.. and i realize that land values are higher but, on street?

I don't know the reason but I've always assumed it was actually to keep employees and/or residents from occupying the scant number of street-side spots for the entire day. While retail (which needs the parking) suffers.

I honestly don't know if that's the reason, but I think the Kalamazoo solution (free 30 minutes on most retail-fronted meters) and free 2 hours on the Kalamazoo Mall (their Monroe Center) works pretty well.

You have to have some deterrant or apartment/condo dwellers will leave their car in front of Groskopf's for weeks at a time (think Wrigleyville in Chicago where the free on-street parking is filled 24/7 and nobody ever seems to move...ever)

[Allison Slater]

Parking Meters were originally invented to keep cars from hogging parking spaces all day. The city that first implemented this made good money off of the program, so most cities followed suit on a combined reason of parking space rotation and an extra source of income.