Church Street Station

[AmIReal]

4 hours ago, spenser1058 said:

If that isn’t a textbook case of “market failure”, I’m not sure what is.

When market failure occurs, it is incumbent upon our local government or its representative like the DDB and its feckless leader Thomas Chatmon to fire up the bully pulpit and perhaps to actually make a few phone calls or invest a little shoe leather to move things forward.

Instead, *crickets*.

After nearly a decade of this, shouldn’t there be an alternative provided at the ballot box.

Of course not, this is Orlando. The coronations continue. Obviously, here we are in the best of all possible worlds as Voltaire would tell us. Let’s change nothing ever!

You're assuming the market wants the space- which is a poor assumption. And that government should step in to fix some very minor issue. The space was designed to be a train station and deeming it as a historical structure- which it should be- has made it unworkable for most businesses.

I'm not sure how any one could place this blame on the current local government.

But to your underlying point, I agree. More worthwhile names should be on the ballot and I will wholeheartedly support the next alternative, that is better than what we have, to the office. Maybe you should throw your name in.

Meanwhile, I see the current Mayor is collecting support from strong liberals such as Ms. Uribe and moderate conservatives such as Ms. Vanderley.  That's a fairly strong coalition-https://floridapolitics.com/archives/306493-betsy-vanderley-mayra-uribe-back-buddy-dyers-reelection-in-orlando  Heck, Vanderley (R)  lays it on thick and says- “Buddy Dyer’s vision for Orlando has included the arts community, jobs and the economy, as well as transportation and housing. He has effectively worked to broaden the vision of who the Orlando community is, I look forward to his continued leadership,”... 

[Uncommon]

https://www.bizjournals.com/orlando/news/2021/01/05/exclusive-rail-depot-downtown-orlando-sold.html

The building at 78 W Church St has been sold. No word on to who or for what purpose the owner purchased the property, but whoever it is (apparently, the buyer is a “familiar face to our downtown community”), hopefully they make it functional and help bring back life to Church St. 

I hope it’s Publix for a Greenwise.

[AmIReal]

On 1/6/2021 at 7:05 AM, Uncommon said:

https://www.bizjournals.com/orlando/news/2021/01/05/exclusive-rail-depot-downtown-orlando-sold.html

The building at 78 W Church St has been sold. No word on to who or for what purpose the owner purchased the property, but whoever it is (apparently, the buyer is a “familiar face to our downtown community”), hopefully they make it functional and help bring back life to Church St. 

I hope it’s Publix for a Greenwise.

Seems the same local bought that and 3 other properties on Church. 123, 125 and 127 W. Church were bought by one of the owners of a Bags Inc. affiliate. 

"multiple properties on downtown's historic Church Street in a bid to revive the struggling retail stretch. "... "said it's likely new bars and restaurants will open in their newly acquired buildings."

https://www.bizjournals.com/orlando/news/2021/01/07/orlando-entrepreneur-church-street-orlando.html

[bqknight]

18 hours ago, AmIReal said:

Seems the same local bought that and 3 other properties on Church. 123, 125 and 127 W. Church were bought by one of the owners of a Bags Inc. affiliate. 

"multiple properties on downtown's historic Church Street in a bid to revive the struggling retail stretch. "... "said it's likely new bars and restaurants will open in their newly acquired buildings."

https://www.bizjournals.com/orlando/news/2021/01/07/orlando-entrepreneur-church-street-orlando.html

Interesting - that's Ceviche and the new Haos space (formerly Lion's Pride). I think they should probably break up Ceviche, the space is massive. Would love to get stuff in there, but downtown is dead a good chunk of the time now - hopefully it picks back up post-pandemic. 

[Uncommon]

2 hours ago, bqknight said:

Interesting - that's Ceviche and the new Haos space (formerly Lion's Pride). I think they should probably break up Ceviche, the space is massive. Would love to get stuff in there, but downtown is dead a good chunk of the time now - hopefully it picks back up post-pandemic. 

Sadly, that part of downtown was dead long before the pandemic. Not sure why, it’s in a decent spot.

[nite owℓ]

2 hours ago, bqknight said:

Interesting - that's Ceviche and the new Haos space (formerly Lion's Pride). I think they should probably break up Ceviche, the space is massive. Would love to get stuff in there, but downtown is dead a good chunk of the time now - hopefully it picks back up post-pandemic. 

Just curious, what business concept do you think would work in that space?

I still wish a chain restaurant like The Cheesecake Factory would come downtown - brand recognition and menu offerings alone would be a big enough draw to keep business steady on Church St. I can't imagine CF going out of business downtown if/when the epidemic is no longer a factor.

[spenser1058]

11 minutes ago, nite owℓ said:

Just curious, what business concept do you think would work in that space?

I still wish a chain restaurant like The Cheesecake Factory would come downtown - brand recognition and menu offerings alone would be a big enough draw to keep business steady on Church St. I can't imagine CF going out of business downtown if/when the epidemic is no longer a factor.

It still astounds me that the headquarters for Red Lobster is right there and yet Thomas Chatmon or Buddy haven’t walked over and said, “Hey, guys, what do we need to do to make this happen?” Same with OG, but that might be a little inconvenient to hop in a city SUV and drive down to JYP. 

[Uncommon]

45 minutes ago, spenser1058 said:

It still astounds me that the headquarters for Red Lobster is right there and yet Thomas Chatmon or Buddy haven’t walked over and said, “Hey, guys, what do we need to do to make this happen?” Same with OG, but that might be a little inconvenient to hop in a city SUV and drive down to JYP. 

As much as Orlando residents (and some posters here on UP) decry chain restaurants, it’s a surprise some people are petitioning for a Cheesecake Factory or Red Lobster in the heart of Orlando’s CBD. Damned if you do, damned if you don’t I guess.

[spenser1058]

1 minute ago, Uncommon said:

As much as Orlando residents (and some posters here on UP) decry chain restaurants, it’s a surprise some people are petitioning for a Cheesecake Factory or Red Lobster in the heart of Orlando’s CBD. Damned if you do, damned if you don’t I guess.

The downtown Olive Garden (high atop Church Street) was much beloved during its run. Even the cool kids ate there.

There are a lot of folks who aren’t sure downtown is a place they’d be welcome - the chains help bring it into their comfort zone (even places like Times Square in Manhattan discovered that).

Also, as @nite owℓ pointed out, they provide a solid anchor that the mom and pops and hipster spots can leverage off of.

[nite owℓ]

13 minutes ago, Uncommon said:

As much as Orlando residents (and some posters here on UP) decry chain restaurants, it’s a surprise some people are petitioning for a Cheesecake Factory or Red Lobster in the heart of Orlando’s CBD. Damned if you do, damned if you don’t I guess.

Huh? I've always said chain restaurants belong downtown (along with a healthy mix of mom & pops) - if anything it's bizarre that we barely have a handful of corp restaurants/franchises in the CBD. Years ago I even went to CF's website to suggest an additional location, but they have their own internal standards that warrant new locations and they aren't open to public suggestions.

[spenser1058]

The whole purpose of Light Up Orlando was to showcase all the changes that had taken place since Mayor Bill made downtown restoration a priority. As we exit COVID (hopefully some time this year), Mr. Chatmon and company likely need to do something like that (although it may be a long time before a mass street party is viable) again to remind folks of all there is downtown.

Consider working with one of the local stations to set up a studio and broadcast the news showing activity, like Today and Good Morning America do with their glass front studios in Manhattan (maybe offer space at the Am before a game when there are lots of folks around or at DPCPA before a show?)

Remind folks there’s a downtown movie theater and activities for kids at OPL and the History Center. Downtown has unfortunately become known in the ‘burbs as nothing but a bunch of bars. We need to change the channel on that to begin to fill in the empty gap between 6-11pm.

 

Edited January 8, 2021 by spenser1058

[nite owℓ]

And I think a North/South Lymmo would do wonders to bring more people into the CBD and activate the streets of each neighborhood node in general. I'd love to go eat/shop at Ivanhoe/SODO without having to drive.

[spenser1058]

Another bonus with the chains is they can more likely afford downtown’s usurious rents (although word is Craig Ustler even ran off Tijuana Flats with a rent increase). I admit I don’t get the logic of empty storefronts and constant turnover due to ridiculous rents, but whatever.

I also think the notion of mixed-use with retail on the bottom isn’t working, even after experimenting with it for several decades. That’s true of most mid-tier cities. I think many of the developers and managers of towers really don’t have retail expertise - it seems to be an afterthought or another hoop to jump to make the bureaucrats happy.

I think it’s time to concentrate retail functions in a common area downtown with retail-specific management. If it has to be subsidized to jump start it, so be it. That sure worked with Publix, not to mention with the city giving $1 million dollars to convert Colonial Plaza even though it had already been a retail center for 40 years.

Let’s get the vision thing going downtown again and find a model that works.

Edited January 8, 2021 by spenser1058

[Jerry95]

1 hour ago, spenser1058 said:

 I don’t get the logic of empty storefronts and constant turnover due to ridiculous rents, but whatever.

From what I've heard it's something about the empty storefronts on mixed use buildings being a tax write-off so rent has to be higher than the tax credit to be worth it. 

[Uncommon]

2 hours ago, nite owℓ said:

Huh? I've always said chain restaurants belong downtown (along with a healthy mix of mom & pops) - if anything it's bizarre that we barely have a handful of corp restaurants/franchises in the CBD. Years ago I even went to CF's website to suggest an additional location, but they have their own internal standards that warrant new locations and they aren't open to public suggestions.

Sorry, although I did use your example, I didn’t mean for it to come across as you specifically clamoring for local businesses downtown vs. chains. It just seems to be the prevailing notion around here and just about anywhere else that chains = bad in Orlando.

[nite owℓ]

1 hour ago, Uncommon said:

Sorry, although I did use your example, I didn’t mean for it to come across as you specifically clamoring for local businesses downtown vs. chains. It just seems to be the prevailing notion around here and just about anywhere else that chains = bad in Orlando.

Oh, no worries. I also lamented the loss of Panera, Wahlburgers, Tijuana Flats, Urban Flats, etc. etc. etc. There is definitely a black hole void of retail downtown and it always feels like a two steps forward, three steps back type of situation.

I plan on moving out of the CBD once I get a few things lined up. I listed my condo and received a full price offer, but I'm not in a rush to sell just yet. I've always been frustrated by the slow momentum downtown and I feel like I'll be old and gray before I see any significant/monumental improvements so I think it's time to move on to something else.

[spenser1058]

17 minutes ago, nite owℓ said:

Oh, no worries. I also lamented the loss of Panera, Wahlburgers, Tijuana Flats, Urban Flats, etc. etc. etc. There is definitely a black hole void of retail downtown and it always feels like a two steps forward, three steps back type of situation.

I plan on moving out of the CBD once I get a few things lined up. I listed my condo and received a full price offer, but I'm not in a rush to sell just yet. I've always been frustrated by the slow momentum downtown and I feel like I'll be old and gray before I see any significant/monumental improvements so I think it's time to move on to something else.

Bring Back the ROYAL CASTLE!

Edited January 8, 2021 by spenser1058

[dcluley98]

4 hours ago, spenser1058 said:

I also think the notion of mixed-use with retail on the bottom isn’t working, even after experimenting with it for several decades.

I have been pointing this out for several years now as a model that does not work and have wondered why our MPB and zoning requires it. It just does not make sense economically.  What we end up with is constant revolving door of sub-par tenants and empty blocks instead of what they think is happening. 

We would be much better off if the MPB created guidlines and zoning that tended to cluster retail and bars and restaurants into tighter areas and not worry about putting GF retail in every damn building. There are several good examples of this in Publix, Wall Street, etc.  

[spenser1058]

8 minutes ago, dcluley98 said:

I have been pointing this out for several years now as a model that does not work and have wondered why our MPB and zoning requires it. It just does not make sense economically.  What we end up with is constant revolving door of sub-par tenants and empty blocks instead of what they think is happening. 

We would be much better off if the MPB created guidlines and zoning that tended to cluster retail and bars and restaurants into tighter areas and not worry about putting GF retail in every damn building. There are several good examples of this in Publix, Wall Street, etc.  

It was once a viable thing in larger cities but now even NYC is struggling with it. 

For the most part, today’s retailers just want an easy to fill in square box without any of the quirks that arise from towers built for another purpose.

I also think that shoppers, now that the era of “ladies who lunch” is long gone, want the stores easy to find, not spread all over several blocks.

Even in the days before the malls, shopping in downtown Orlando was mostly on Orange Ave or not very far from it. 

I think one reason for the success of downtown WG retail relative to downtown Orlando is you get all the historic quaintness all laid right out on Plant St. No muss, no fuss (lots of free parking doesn’t hurt, either).

There also has to be a commitment to attracting and maintaining retail downtown and in Orlando it seems to be about #359 on the administration’s priority list.

 

[gibby]

I think this is a great policy.  When our downtown population doubles, I'll be happy that we have space set aside for retail/restaurant use on all of these main corridors.  Walking past an empty retail space is way better than walking  past a block-long parking garage, in the meantime.

[bqknight]

Anyone think Parliament House may occupy the Ceviche space? They said they were looking to open up the club portion downtown. Hamburger Mary’s is still there and Haos (LGBT owned) is also next door. 
 

Could be interesting. 

[spenser1058]

It’s certainly possible but I’m sure the owners are thinking twice as Don Granatstein’s record for veracity is right up there with The Donald’s.

It would be fun to have a little gay cul-de-sac right downtown after all these years and with another gay bar (Stonewall) just a few blocks down Church St.

Edited January 9, 2021 by spenser1058

[bqknight]

2 hours ago, spenser1058 said:

It’s certainly possible but I’m sure the owners are thinking twice as Don Granatstein’s record for veracity is right up there with The Donald’s.

It would be fun to have a little gay cul-de-sac right downtown after all these years and with another gay bar (Stonewall) just a few blocks down Church St.

Agreed. Stonewall has been doing quite well for itself since Orlando City opened their stadium there too. Would be a little competition between there and Bumby with Southern. 

[AmIReal]

The Bags guy, Craig Mateer, has bought 129 Church St fka the Improv/  aka Rosie O'Gradys for $4 million.

I think that makes 6 properties on Church he has purchased in the past few months. I hope he takes good care of them (he has publicly committed to doing so) and I hope he puts good businesses in them.

https://www.bizjournals.com/orlando/news/2021/03/03/breaking-church-street-mateer-bags-inc.html

 

[Uncommon]

https://bungalower.com/2021/07/22/new-gatsby-themed-club-opening-on-church-street/
 

I love this for Church St! Hopefully this is the beginning of a classier part of downtown, something like Park Ave.