Church Street Station

[cwetteland]

... If Magic games engendered that kind of spill-into-the-streets, dine and drink until midnight activity why then wouldn

[Camillo Sitte]

My guess it that there is nothing near the O-rena. So you have to go to your car first ... and once you're rolling ... hey, you're half way home.

That

Edited March 11, 2009 by Camillo Sitte

[demon]

That

[Camillo Sitte]

It's not just 4 blocks south, but it is also 2 blocks to the east.

I don't think the resturants that were in Church St failed because of the location.

This is correct - which is why I said, "not to mention [the restaurants at] Church Street Station."

My point was that the CSS restaurants were also available to Magic fans.

Downtown Disney and Universal CityWalk killed-off CSS as all three were trying to serve the same, limited demographic and CSS just wasn't hip enough at the time to beat out their newer competition.

I am actually posting this on my Tilt while watching the Magic hang 40 on Chicago!

Edited March 12, 2009 by Camillo Sitte

[JFW657]

With the new events center being located so close to the downtown core & just a short stroll, I believe there will enough people who will exit the arena & head east to CSS & beyond.

A lot of people either won't be in the mood to quit partying after the game, or won't be willing to pay the exorbitant prices to satisfy their appetite & thirst inside the center.

With that many seats, a certain percentage of the people in them will stay downtown to party & spend money.

It will be a great shot in the arm for downtown.

[spenser1058]

This is correct - which is why I said, "not to mention [the restaurants at] Church Street Station."

My point was that the CSS restaurants were also available to Magic fans.

Downtown Disney and Universal CityWalk killed-off CSS as all three were trying to serve the same, limited demographic and CSS just wasn't hip enough at the time to beat out their newer competition.

I am actually posting this on my Tilt while watching the Magic hang 40 on Chicago!

Actually, it's a bit of an urban myth that CSS was killed by PI and CityWalk - that factor was a ways down the list.

What killed CSS? The 3 most important factors, imho, were:

(1) Orlando NTC closed - sailors were an integral part of Rosie's almost from the beginning.

(2) Competition downtown appeared - as more establishments appeared downtown, everything from complete dives to swankier spots like the late, great Valentyne's - the market for folks in the area diluted.

(3) Entrepreneur Bob Snow sold out to an out of town utility that had no clue how to run such a complex. Whereas from the beginning, Bob had the searchlights running every night, poked and prodded every tour group in America to stop by, had infinitely more special events to keep traffic coming without so much regard to the bottom line and made sure the place remained in tip-top shape (it was his baby after all), BG&E almost immediately started looking at the bottom line and stopped putting in the effort required to keep things going. (As a comparison, it's why family-owned Gatorland keeps on keeping on while corporate entities like Cypress Gardens and Boardwalk & Baseball always fade away). Interestingly, a much older and distracted Bob Snow (he's working on other out of town projects right now as Cheyenne closes to the public as of Saturday night) shows the difference in attitude.

Blaming Cheyenne, for example, on the economy makes me chuckle. In 1974 when Rosie's opened, Orlando was facing a much worse economic situation than it is today (motels and condos were being foreclosed on constantly and several of the major car dealers at the time were taken over as Orlando recovered from the first energy crisis, overbuilding and an overreliance on mom and pop tourism), yet Rosie's thrived.

In any event, for the suburbanites who are the Magic's base, a walk to CSS or for that matter, anywhere, beyond a sea of asphalt in the dark and quite literally on the wrong side of the tracks was always an iffy proposition. What few places developed around the Arena and benefitted from the newness soon declined as the Magic went into its post-Shaq period when they had trouble filling half the seats and as concerts moved to other venues in Tampa, etc., due to greater scheduling flexibility.

Almost from the beginning, planners recognized the folly of the Arena as originally designed and set out to remedy that issue. I'm cautiously optimistic they'll be able to do so. Let's also not forget that as these condos downtown fill up eventually there will be infinitely more people living downtown than when the Arena opened in 1989

[cwetteland]

It's not just 4 blocks south, but it is also 2 blocks to the east.

I don't think the resturants that were in Church St failed because of the location, it was that they were resturants no one wanted to visit at that location. My brother & I usually dine at the resturants on Central & Magnolia before games and that can be a bit of a long walk over to the arena. I think putting the arena in a sea of parking lots was a mistake. I'm certain making it 1 block away from food & retail will make a big difference.

Agree. Most people parking to go to the new arena will be in garages all around the downtown area. There is a big difference between having to walk past your car to go to a resturant ... and having to walk past a resturant to go to your car.

[JFW657]

Actually, it's a bit of an urban myth that CSS was killed by PI and CityWalk - that factor was a ways down the list.

What killed CSS? The 3 most important factors, imho, were:

(1) Orlando NTC closed - sailors were an integral part of Rosie's almost from the beginning.

(2) Competition downtown appeared - as more establishments appeared downtown, everything from complete dives to swankier spots like the late, great Valentyne's - the market for folks in the area diluted.

(3) Entrepreneur Bob Snow sold out to an out of town utility that had no clue how to run such a complex. Whereas from the beginning, Bob had the searchlights running every night, poked and prodded every tour group in America to stop by, had infinitely more special events to keep traffic coming without so much regard to the bottom line and made sure the place remained in tip-top shape (it was his baby after all), BG&E almost immediately started looking at the bottom line and stopped putting in the effort required to keep things going. (As a comparison, it's why family-owned Gatorland keeps on keeping on while corporate entities like Cypress Gardens and Boardwalk & Baseball always fade away). Interestingly, a much older and distracted Bob Snow (he's working on other out of town projects right now as Cheyenne closes to the public as of Saturday night) shows the difference in attitude.

Blaming Cheyenne, for example, on the economy makes me chuckle. In 1974 when Rosie's opened, Orlando was facing a much worse economic situation than it is today (motels and condos were being foreclosed on constantly and several of the major car dealers at the time were taken over as Orlando recovered from the first energy crisis, overbuilding and an overreliance on mom and pop tourism), yet Rosie's thrived.

In any event, for the suburbanites who are the Magic's base, a walk to CSS or for that matter, anywhere, beyond a sea of asphalt in the dark and quite literally on the wrong side of the tracks was always an iffy proposition. What few places developed around the Arena and benefitted from the newness soon declined as the Magic went into its post-Shaq period when they had trouble filling half the seats and as concerts moved to other venues in Tampa, etc., due to greater scheduling flexibility.

Almost from the beginning, planners recognized the folly of the Arena as originally designed and set out to remedy that issue. I'm cautiously optimistic they'll be able to do so. Let's also not forget that as these condos downtown fill up eventually there will be infinitely more people living downtown than when the Arena opened in 1989

Spencer, all 3 of those factors you listed as having caused the demise of CSS happened many years before the shutdown. When DT Disney & Citywalk opened, suddenly the busloads of tourists that used to buy package deals to CSS abruptly stopped, & that was what caused the place to spiral into decline.

[spenser1058]

Spencer, all 3 of those factors you listed as having caused the demise of CSS happened many years before the shutdown. When DT Disney & Citywalk opened, suddenly the busloads of tourists that used to buy package deals to CSS abruptly stopped, & that was what caused the place to spiral into decline.

With respect, your timeline is off. PI opened in 1989, CityWalk came several years later. BG&E bought a 50% interest in 1988; it bought the remaining half a year later. Orlando NTC closed after winding down operations from roughly 1995-1998. Downtown's resurgence really did not get going until after the Orange Avenue Streetscape was completed in 1985.

When BG&E bought CSS, it paid top dollar because at that point CSS was still doing fine as an entity. The other bars at that point along Orange Ave. were having some effect, but CSS was still considered the anchor. BG&E was never as aggressive in promoting the tour business as Snow had been, nor did they establish the relationships with Recruit Training Command that Snow did. It was a declining by degrees process more than anything else.

There were never that many people exiting WDW to make the trek to Downtown Orlando to go to CSS - almost from the beginning, PI captured the bar business that had mostly belonged to the lounges at the Hotel Plaza Blvd hotels (remember The Laughing Kookaburra and Giraffe, anyone?), not to mention a growing audience for people in the southwest quadrant of the county. The families that are the bulk of WDW's business are not the bar hoppers - there's a reason PI and the entertainment options at Boardwalk never went over that well and why both have been repurposed (I sell WDW packages and am familiar with the numbers on who's choosing to do what on property).

Universal City Walk came along in 1999, well after CSS was already declining from the 3 factors I mentioned.

The tour business will go wherever they have the greatest incentive (read: $$$$) to go- Bob Snow utilized that while BG&E promoted it less aggressively. I can't speak for Universal but Disney's approach has generally been more that the tour groups can come to them.

Another point I did not mention was that CSS never really freshened itself after Snow left - not only did maintenance decline but the concept was never really tweaked. The same was true in the eventual demise of PI, and Bob Snow's reappearance on the Church St. scene echoed that ( that's not so unusual for Bob- the original Rosie's in Pensacola languished for many of the same reasons). Bob tried to use a similar formula in downtown Las Vegas, and it never worked, either. It was telling in a speech at the OBJ Downtown Update last December that Bob had no real use for Hamburger Mary's, although their unique, more diverse offering is arguably the most successful of the revised CSS. Universal has been better it seems at keeping City Walk fresh in its offerings; hopefully, the repurposed Downtown Disney will do the same.

As for CSS, I do believe it's close enough to the Events Center and DPAC to be successful eventually, especially after 55W gets its act together. It may be a long couple of years, however. I'm reminded a little bit of the various of ups and downs of Underground Atlanta over the years, although I think in the long run CSS is better situated to be successful.

[facilities man]

Agree. Most people parking to go to the new arena will be in garages all around the downtown area. There is a big difference between having to walk past your car to go to a resturant ... and having to walk past a resturant to go to your car.

I agree. This is one of those things you can't put a figure on, but will make a big difference. Even if it means people just hang around a little longer, walk around, or maybe have a drink. The way it is now people run to their cars and go home right after events at the arena.

[JRS1]

yeah, the current O-Rena is an island in the middle of retail nowhere.

the Events Center will utilize it's parking garage, the ones across the street, the 55W parking, PTP parking, Suntrust/CSS parking, the garage on Central across Embers, and probably City Hall/CNL parking if they open it up.

By the time the Events Center open, the cinema will be open and running for a while, 55W will have begun filling with tenants, and perhaps a Hilton proposal will be farther along God & market willing.

^^

I do agree about the concert, though. those shows will come I'm sure...

[JFW657]

With respect, your timeline is off. PI opened in 1989, CityWalk came several years later. BG&E bought a 50% interest in 1988; it bought the remaining half a year later. Orlando NTC closed after winding down operations from roughly 1995-1998. Downtown's resurgence really did not get going until after the Orange Avenue Streetscape was completed in 1985.

When BG&E bought CSS, it paid top dollar because at that point CSS was still doing fine as an entity. The other bars at that point along Orange Ave. were having some effect, but CSS was still considered the anchor. BG&E was never as aggressive in promoting the tour business as Snow had been, nor did they establish the relationships with Recruit Training Command that Snow did. It was a declining by degrees process more than anything else.

There were never that many people exiting WDW to make the trek to Downtown Orlando to go to CSS - almost from the beginning, PI captured the bar business that had mostly belonged to the lounges at the Hotel Plaza Blvd hotels (remember The Laughing Kookaburra and Giraffe, anyone?), not to mention a growing audience for people in the southwest quadrant of the county. The families that are the bulk of WDW's business are not the bar hoppers - there's a reason PI and the entertainment options at Boardwalk never went over that well and why both have been repurposed (I sell WDW packages and am familiar with the numbers on who's choosing to do what on property).

Universal City Walk came along in 1999, well after CSS was already declining from the 3 factors I mentioned.

The tour business will go wherever they have the greatest incentive (read: $$$$) to go- Bob Snow utilized that while BG&E promoted it less aggressively. I can't speak for Universal but Disney's approach has generally been more that the tour groups can come to them.

Still, until the opening of Downtown Disney "Westside" (not PI) & then right afterward, Universal CityWalk, there were still tour busses full of tourists coming to CSS at night. As soon as those other two venues opened up, the tourbus business stopped almost immediately.

You are right about all the other factors that contributed to CSS's general decline, including the closing of the NTC, but the final nail in the coffin was the opening DTDWS & UCW.

[Boomer136]

You make it sound like they're closing permanently. Look at Wall Street, Globe and Slingapours are weekend only public spaces, private on others, well and top nigts as well. Well the whole street is for sale, really. Many a time I'm kicked out of the Monkey Bar for some party. Regardless, plenty of clubs downtown are closed two or three nights a week. If you think its laughable that the economy is used as an excuse, I wish I was in your economy, because I think you're not appreciating the impact of the poor decisions of the past (I think I was rather diplomatic there). Nickel beer survives. I brought a new buddy lately of NYC (5 yrs) and now San Fran (girl HATED NYC, oh well) who on Sunday afternoon after his flight thought us quite the cow town. I was able to disabuse him of this notion during the week. Complaining that Monday nights are limited is like complaining that the bars close at the unreasonably blue law restrictive time of 2 am in this citrus farmer town.

Would you have that managers stay open all nights until they have to close to all and we return to CSS as a ghost town? Personally I worked both CSS and PI Entertainment, one with a kilt and one in black (but shorts allowed! [if you never wore the Disney polyester you can never fully apprehend the joy of that option]). I opened PI both times. PI was savvy, Zappy Hour was a draw, not to mention the lonely euro-girls at Manequins rather than Phoggs, well at least for me! And yes, it is easy to find folks to drive a successful franchise into the ground. Like the owner's fair haired management crew that went around and closed all the Jungle Jims.

All this to say, Cheyenne is not as closed as it was a couple years ago. Urban cowboys are not as popular as they once were, give 'em a break. At least that's my nickel (damn inflation, at least I can still get a beer with one like it's 1989!)

[jack]

One thing I have noticed that a lot of companies are blaming the economy for them closing. Then I think "they were always empty".

[lala67]

Agree. Most people parking to go to the new arena will be in garages all around the downtown area. There is a big difference between having to walk past your car to go to a resturant ... and having to walk past a resturant to go to your car.

bingo...I believe there are about 2500 parking spots planned for the events center garage? There's another chunk of spots 1000? available in the garage behind City Hall, then there are 750? or so in 55W? Not all of those spaces will be available for the Magic games though.

Add in the DPAC and it gets even dicier if both places have an event at the same time. Beyond CSS, I think the shops/retail in the Hughes complex fronting W Church Street and across from the Events Center will also see an uptick, maybe even more than CSS.

The sea of parking surrounding the O-Rena really killed any chance for retail to pick up around it. But the block between Hughey and Division along Church Street will do nicely since the area isn't being blown out by asphalt and such. Very walkable, very urban, much different atmoshphere than the Centroplex.

Personally, I might grab something to eat at the Arena for a game, but that's generally a factor of running late and getting to my seat. That said, I've often hung out at Hoops before/after a game since it's pretty slim pickings for anything near the Arena.

[JFW657]

bingo...I believe there are about 2500 parking spots planned for the events center garage? There's another chunk of spots 1000? available in the garage behind City Hall, then there are 750? or so in 55W? Not all of those spaces will be available for the Magic games though.

Add in the DPAC and it gets even dicier if both places have an event at the same time.

With regards to parking spots, you forgot to mention the city garage above the shops on W. Church right across from the EC.

[prahaboheme]

Just bring back Rosie O'Grady's. There is nothing like it, and it was a huge success. How is the Cheyenne Salon holding up?

[bulldogger]

I thought they were closed already except for special events like the Florida Music Festival.

[GTR]

Anyone hear about a Las Vegas firm that was sniffing around CCS? Also heard a rumor about the owner of Wildsides looking at the train station for yet another flatbread restaurant. With the arena around the corner, CCS is a gold-mine. It might take away business from the rest of the city, but its a gold-mine. Can't wait to see what happens.

[prahaboheme]

Unfortunately it remains to be seen if CSS can rebound to it's 90s high.

[JRS1]

^^

Oh, it will.

When Amway Center opens, Church St. will be officially reborn.

Orange Ave. has consistently been the big dog the past decade, and the Plaza opening reinforces that. But Wall St. and Central has a strong presence of their own with bars that have been there for years. That'll never change.

But Church St. already has strong patronage now with the Mako's/Lattitude's group of bars and eateries. CSS has Hamburger Mary's and Ceviche and Bliss that are holding steady.

Once 55W opens up and a couple of new places go in there, it will bridge the gap between both sides of the tracks. having a major construction zone the past 3 years played a big part in killing off business at CSS.

Also, Cheyene will no longer be the edge establishment once the Amway Center opens up; and that will be a huge factor. Amway will be a fantastic anchor to the west that will sandwich CSS on one side.

They just need to figure out what to do with the Pine St. side of CSS, so that they can continue the retail corridor which currently will end at 55W's backside. The Firehouse will bring some life to the block it sits on.

They need to develop the lot between Garland, Pine, Central and the tracks.

[JFW657]

One thing they could to do with the Church Street Exchange building is, rather than trying to go back to a mini retail shopping mall, turn it into either one big, threee-story night club/restaurant, or make it sort of a night club/restaurant & entertainment "mall", with several different establishments in the one building.

I used to work there back in the early 90's in a second floor card & gift shop. Even in those heydays when the busloads of tourists would pack in there 7 nights a week, the owner had a hard time making a go of it because the rents were so high.

I think that in order for retail to be successful, the place would have to have the kinds of stores that fill the practical needs of the people in the local highrises so they could just pop in & pick up everyday type items. A drug store, convenience store, small specialty grocery stores, a bakery, a deli, maybe even a hardware store. Don't know how well a hardware store would "fit" inside there, but it sure seems like downtown could use one.

[codypet]

or make it sort of a night club/restaurant & entertainment "mall", with several different establishments in the one building.

Are you talking about like a Pleasure Island type place under one roof? Different clubs, 1 cover?

[JFW657]

Are you talking about like a Pleasure Island type place under one roof? Different clubs, 1 cover?

That would be one way to go, or they could be totally separate establishments with their own door policies.

Or maybe just three different clubs, one on each floor.

Or maybe instead of nightclubs, just have 3 or 4 dining establishments per floor.

[JRS1]

I went to Citywalk and they have a Moes, BK, and Panda I think in one continuouse curvy counter long eatery establishment on the top floor on the theatre side with a balcony overlooking Citywalk. It was very well designed and well made. Several eateries in one shared space like they tried to do at Central & Court.

I think that used to be a retail store; movie memorabilia? Anyway, It seems like for a theme park retail area, food is the key for success. People are hungry and they want to eat.

For the Exchange building, I agree about having stores that people need. A Walgreens would be good. CVS opened at Baldwin and that will never go out of business.

Maybe the Exchange is a perfect place for a Barnes & Noble? It's got a few levels in there. They can incorporate a Starbucks or whatever in there as well. I don't know. Maybe a Walgreens and a Barnes;

Why not?