Church Street Station

[prahaboheme]

I think a Barnes and Noble would do better on Orange Avenue or Central -- but I agree that downtown needs one. Actually, it might do well in the new 55W retail space.

The exchange could be redesigned into a marketplace environment -- think Quincy Market in Boston, Reading Terminal Market in Philly, Chelsea Piers NYC, etc.

[sunshine]

NBA City, ESPN, Planet Hollywood and Dave & buster can squeeze in there.

[demon]

NBA City, ESPN, Planet Hollywood and Dave & buster can squeeze in there.

I think being that close to the events center a sports themed restaurant would be best. I like the idea of D&B though. Anything that would be a good place for appetizers and to play a few games of skeeball or the like.

[Magicfan95]

I think a Barnes and Noble would do better on Orange Avenue or Central -- but I agree that downtown needs one. Actually, it might do well in the new 55W retail space.

The exchange could be redesigned into a marketplace environment -- think Quincy Market in Boston, Reading Terminal Market in Philly, Chelsea Piers NYC, etc.

My understanding is that it was an idea, but it was determined those who would likely have booths, couldn't afford the rent. You have to remember the building is very very expensive to rent in.

[Magicfan95]

NBA City, ESPN, Planet Hollywood and Dave & buster can squeeze in there.

NBA City, ESPN, and Planet Hollywood are tourist attractions...not sure that's what either CSS or those companies are really aiming for at this point.

Dave and Busters has looked at Orlando before, but from what I've heard has been gun shy because of the countless amounts of entertainment options. Chances are any Orlando D&B's wouldn't be downtown anyway. The company has a pretty lengthy record of opting for more suburban locations off major interstates.

For example the Nashville location is by the Grand Ol' Opry...about 10 miles from downtown. The Atlanta locations are on the interstates in Gwinnett and Marrieta north of downtown. The Charlotte location is in the suburb of Concord. Jacksonville's is about 10 miles south of downtown. They have put them in high tourist areas in downtowns of some cities...NYC in Times Square, Chicago, Dallas (where they started).

As a company they are very selective of location because of the overhead is so high. If I were a betting man, and if Orlando were to ever get a D&Bs it would be in Altamonte, Millenia, I-Drive, or LBV. I seriously doubt they'll ever consider downtown Orlando.

[demon]

NBA City, ESPN, and Planet Hollywood are tourist attractions...not sure that's what either CSS or those companies are really aiming for at this point.

Dave and Busters has looked at Orlando before, but from what I've heard has been gun shy because of the countless amounts of entertainment options. Chances are any Orlando D&B's wouldn't be downtown anyway. The company has a pretty lengthy record of opting for more suburban locations off major interstates.

For example the Nashville location is by the Grand Ol' Opry...about 10 miles from downtown. The Atlanta locations are on the interstates in Gwinnett and Marrieta north of downtown. The Charlotte location is in the suburb of Concord. Jacksonville's is about 10 miles south of downtown. They have put them in high tourist areas in downtowns of some cities...NYC in Times Square, Chicago, Dallas (where they started).

As a company they are very selective of location because of the overhead is so high. If I were a betting man, and if Orlando were to ever get a D&Bs it would be in Altamonte, Millenia, I-Drive, or LBV. I seriously doubt they'll ever consider downtown Orlando.

The Target Center in downtown Minneapolis has an NBA City restaurant. Minneapolis is a great city, but not a tourist attraction area.

I could see a D&B going into downtown Orlando. You would have visibility from the highway, and incredible foot traffic.

[Magicfan95]

The Target Center in downtown Minneapolis has an NBA City restaurant. Minneapolis is a great city, but not a tourist attraction area.

I could see a D&B going into downtown Orlando. You would have visibility from the highway, and incredible foot traffic.

That's because one of the owners for the T-Wolves owns the NBA City rights.

As for D&B downtown...It won't happen. Its not in their very strict business model. A similar company (like the one that used to be at channelside in Tampa) might be interested...but I can pretty much 100% guarentee it will not be D&Bs.

[neon9]

That's because one of the owners for the T-Wolves owns the NBA City rights.

As for D&B downtown...It won't happen. Its not in their very strict business model. A similar company (like the one that used to be at channelside in Tampa) might be interested...but I can pretty much 100% guarentee it will not be D&Bs.

Anyone would be deterred from moving to I-drive due to the failure of ....what was it? Something, then the Pac-Man Cafe, at Pointe Orlando? XS Orlando?

I don't know what happened there, or how they afford to leave the area with the 2 nightclubs and the cajun place empty now....the top floor of CSS used to be an arcade, right?

[JFW657]

....the top floor of CSS used to be an arcade, right?

The top floor of the Church Street Exchange was an arcade.

[FLKP]

Did I hear that a developer announced something for CSS?

[scottb411]

The Target Center in downtown Minneapolis has an NBA City restaurant. Minneapolis is a great city, but not a tourist attraction area.

I could see a D&B going into downtown Orlando. You would have visibility from the highway, and incredible foot traffic.

Adding a Fox Sports Grill would be a good addition:

Especially since a majority of the magic games are on Fox Sports Florida and Fox owned Sun Sports. They could do their post game reports from the restaurant and bar. Fox Sports Grill also has more of a nightclub vibe and upscale dining that is more in-line with downtown Orlando.

Edited November 3, 2009 by scottb411

[JRS1]

Did I hear that a developer announced something for CSS?

what more did you here?

[prahaboheme]

Interesting article on Church Street, including a new restaurant going into the former Rosie O'Grady's space as well as a plan to cover Church Street with a canopy from the CSX tracks to Garland Ave. I'm not sure this is all that great an idea, or is necessary, but if it is an attractive feature (as opposed to just a cheesy one) then I'm not necessary against it.

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/business/breakingnews/os-church-street-station-20100608,0,2397344.story

[bic]

Yeah, I don't understand the canopy at all either. I guess they're going for a Fremont Street Experience* vibe but to me it sounds pretty useless until a rendering can prove otherwise.

*

Edited June 10, 2010 by bic

[Jernigan]

Read the canopy would be useful for private outdoor parties....

How many nights a year does Bourbon Street close to private parties?

Scary if these guys at Church Street still dont get it....

[Magicfan95]

Read the canopy would be useful for private outdoor parties....

How many nights a year does Bourbon Street close to private parties?

Scary if these guys at Church Street still dont get it....

Can you even compare the two? No. Nor will you ever be able to again. It's a different ball game now.

The goal of the canopy (which is basically a new effort to fix the area) is to assure traffic rain or shine. They're trying to fit the mold of Wall Street, and in doing so, want to improve upon Wall St.'s biggest problem, it is a useless venue when it rains. Which happens.

The attraction for tourism will be occasional at best at this point. Maybe for the bowl games. Definitely for the NBA All Star game, or any other special event at the new arena.

Church Street is running out of ideas, and we've been through this 3-4 times now. Basically, this time...it's do or die.

[prahaboheme]

I don't think it's do or die, I just think they are jumping to conclusions by turning this into an "experience" with a canopy. It's been done, and even the Fremont Street Experience is not a rousing success. The original success of Church Street Station had a lot to do with a specific time and place in the tourism age of Orlando. Orlando ultimately outgrew Rosie O'Grady's and the Cheyenne Salon. People wanted edgier, more modern venues. The rest of downtown did not cave in when Pleasure Island and CityWalk opened up. In fact, it's busier downtown now than it's ever been.

Church Street needs to grow up organically. They don't need to jump the gun by turning this into a cheesy new venue for tourists who don't go downtown anyway. Let the arena open up, get some of these new restaurants open in 55 West and Church Street, and slowly this will emerge as a vital part of downtown once again.

A canopy, though, could likely ruin the entire ambiance of the street. We need to watch this one very closely and raise our voices if this turns into a desecration of the historic district.

[prahaboheme]

If they do build a canopy over Church Street, I do hope it attempts to remain contextual with the historic area of Church Street, not opting to go modern like the Fremont Street Experience. Orlando has enough modern, we really need to hold onto what we have.

Something like this would work:

[spenser1058]

It's big, but it's not huge. I think it is going to be a lot less like the Freemont Street Experience and a lot more like a marketplace. Then again they weren't too clear on how this will be - will you still drive under it during the day? Will it be glass or completely opaque? I think there is some logic - it will keep the rain off, provide some protection from the sun during the day. Just so long as it is kept open and doesn't become a private event space.

I still feel that just having it all restaurants and clubs is not going to cut it. There needs to be more - shops, the aforementioned bookstore. I just feel that there is still some kind of struggle between being a tourist destination and a quiet little neighborhood of churches. Downtown needs to find some kind of balance.

Downtown Orlando is not about tourism, that, um, train left the station years ago. Disney decided in the 1980's that the goal was to keep every one of their guests on property, never to stray until time to go to the airport. Now that Universal, Wet & Wild and Sea World are under almost common ownership (there are other fractional investors), they are moving toward the same goal. With the convention center located in that area, coventioneers are unlikely to stray downtown much, either.

In fact, due to the Big 2, Kissimmee is becoming a ghost town and International Drive's mom and pops really aren't far behind.

As to the voters that would have to fund any monies to support the necessary marketing program to fight our Big 2 "tourist industrial complex" companies, I know of no one who thinks it is a worthwhile fight. Orlando, like Vegas, is interesting in that our tourism/convention facilities are completely discrete from the rest of the community (it's one reason why Bob Snow lost his shirt in Vegas when he set out to do another "Church Street" in their downtown). Walt made that decision for us in 1965 and it has been reinforced ever since; when voters decided to put the convention center down ther in 1978, that pretty much made it final. Nothing that has happened since then has changed that, it has only reinforced it; CSS was the exception that proved the rule, and once Orlando NTC closed, locals had other options - when CSS started, the scores of bars on Church and Wall St. did not exist - and Bob's entrepreneurial spirit went to Vegas, that was the end of that.

Having said that, if you make downtown interesting and vibrant, the folks specifically who enjoy "historical" tourism (I visit small towns with much fewer offerings historywise than Orlando has, especially when paired with the cultural offerings in WP) and those from the region who come to take in a Magic game or a concert will spend money downtown if there is a reason to do so. When the O'rena was sited so that it seemed dangerous and inconvenient to leave the area after a game (Carr, of course, already had that problem), people just got in their cars and went home. With the new Am and DPAC, there will be a totally different dynamic to lure people to stick around.

Those are the folks we can attract downtown while continuing to make it the region's governmental and financial hub, and THE best place to live in central Florida if you choose to live an auto-free lifestyle. I firmly believe that to be the mission for us going forward.

As to the aesthetics of a roof over Church Street, I'd love a traditional "Crystal Palace" sort of structure, but would a glass roof be unbearably hot with the sun shining through until after 8:30pm on summer nights? I suppose there are ways to work around that with energy-saving technologies, but I hope we don't get so invested in that they go cheap elsewhere and it ends up being modern (read "no frills" to reduce costs) like most 1970's government buildings hereabouts, not to mention looking just plain cheesy. I'm also with cloudship that I don't want a permanent closure of the street.

Edited June 14, 2010 by spenser1058

[scottb411]

I think that this can be done nicely if they do something similar to the UCF recreational pool:

...or go with canopies that you see over playgrounds on a larger scale:

[prahaboheme]

Those are exactly the types of canopies that I pray to high heavens they do not put on Church St.

[DeepEyez]

On the brief topic of downtown Orlando, I think the focus of the entire area should be Business-Entertainment-Culture, this should be the go-to place for everything Orlando/Central Florida. I believe the Dr. Phillips Center for the Performing Arts and Amway Center will do a lot to bring that vision into reality.

On the the topic of Church Street Station,

Baby Grands has a website - www.babygrandsduelingpianos.com/

This area of downtown will have a unique cultural vibrancy. It's going to be pretty cool.

[Jernigan]

Downtown Orlando can stand on it's own two feet. Frankly, it doesn't need to be a tourist destination. Orlando is certainly large enough that it's own residents should be able to keep the brews pourin and the music loud on our own.

If our locals (Downtown and all areas east) are choosing to drive all the way to I-Drive besides the occasional night out at Citiwalk or Pointe Orlando, then we have a problem.

[Ocityst]

Here's a PDF for the layout of what Heat @ 55W will look like. Pretty nice setup w/ the live stage behind the the main bar. Looks like it will be a great place to get a bite to eat and lounge before a concert of game at Amway Center.

http://www.vjaconstruction.com/uploads/Heat_Design_Intent_Bound.pdf

[bic]

^ Looks like it'll be nice but I still can't get over how bad of a name it is for an establishment that will need the patronage of Magic fans.