Is Haywood the next McAlister?

[gs3]

Sears was in what is now an two story (three if you count the basement) Insurance Building where Stone Ave and Wade Hampton come together. It's between Carpris and The Handlebar. Their is another thread going around that Bloom might be building a store across the street from there in the vacant lot where the "Easter Bunny" has been known to stand and wave to to people.

I thought that was a Sears.....looks like one of the many they built in downtowns in the 50's and 60's.

What's the deal with the "Easter Bunny"? Never heard of this.

[gregtrob]

I think you're 100% accurate. I remember being taken to that Sears as a kid and then seeing the insurance company surface there right after Sears closed. I also remember the Baskin-Robbins, movie theater, Woolco and Winn-Dixie at Bell Tower- even watching the Winn-Dixie sign vanish when the store closed. I remember being at Bell Tower maybe in 1981, before Woolco closed in 1982, and the mall was dead, with just a laundromat and BJ Music (and perhaps more) inside, and the Baskin-Robbins and a cafeteria accessible on the outside.

The mall timelines I seem to recall:

Bell Tower: 1968-early '80s (although the movie theater seemed to remain until the late '80s)

McAlister Square: 1968-early 2000s

Greenville Mall: 1978-recently

Haywood: 1980-

I don't remember enough about Wade Hampton except that movie theater.

Too bad Bell Tower Mall closed; I think if it had managed to recreate itself in the early '80s with even a replacement anchor it would have eventually bounced back to life, given downtown's resurgence.

Wasn't there one other mall in the area that I haven't heard mentioned yet (or maybe I imagined it as a child), but I'm pretty sure what are now the lofts over on Mills Avenue used to have a mall of some sort in it - and no I don't mean when the Handlebar and that great seafood place were in it (anyone know what happened to the cook from there). As a child I remember it being an outlet sort of mall of some type and I got some awesome "car" toys from there.

[linkerjpatrick]

Yes, Mills Mill did have some shops in it at one time. This was before or during the early part the handlebar was there. I think that little experiment last a few years in the early 90's. I think the biggest retailer there was a Pottery Warehouse on the backside. I don't really count that as a "mall" per se since it wasn't built as that originally nor did it have the infastructure a typical Mall needs.

[mallguy]

That poor outlet mall. It didn't last more than a few years. All I remember were wood floors and a Peanut Shack-type place in it.

[whitehourseview]

That poor outlet mall. It didn't last more than a few years. All I remember were wood floors and a Peanut Shack-type place in it.

I haven't thought of that outlet at Mills Mill in years. I remember an Iranian woman ran a rug shop towards the back and the Peanut shack.

[Galley]

Just in case your interested: DeadMalls.com

[mallguy]

More mall memories:

http://web.archive.org/web/20000118080254/...nvillemall.com/

[StevenRocks]

The odds of Haywood mall dying are very low in the current reatil environment. Most of the changes you see there: the upscaling of the specialty tenants, thuggish patrons on weekends, more contemporary shopping options nearby, is going on everywhere. there's nothing in particular to e alarmed about.

The tell-tale signs of a dying mall are more like this:

-- Grouped loss of national retailers.

-- Large number of mom-and-pop stores opening in unremodeled spaces.

-- Closing and/or scaled-back anchor stores, with no replacement anchors announced.

-- Retail spaces that stay empty for two years or more.

-- A noticable lack of maintenence, both routine and comprehensive.

-- Frequent, violent crime.

Any of those, seperately or in combination, spell trouble.

[mallguy]

What's everyone's quick view of Haywood- particularly StevenRocks? What grade would people give it?

Say if Tysons Galleria and Lenox Square get A+ grades, SouthPark gets an A-, the Gaston Mall gets an F, Eastland gets a D, the Mall of Georgia gets a B, I'd give Haywood a B-. Big but not huge, good but not great stores, decent anchors but no "big name" upscale department stores, nice interior finally but dated exterior and no outdoor component.

I'd have given McAlister Square a C (somewhat dated and small although decent), Greenville Mall a B- (attractive and good caliber stores but just basically empty) and Bell Tower Mall a D (D for dead, and dated).

[distortedlogic]

Haywood may eventually die one day, but i don't think it will be anytime soon. Everytime I go in there (which is not that often, but often enough) it is packed, even during the middle of the day in the week. There are tons of people who still like to shop in enclosed malls. (They actually make more sense to me than having to go back to the front of the store, out, down to the next one, then back in). The renovation are nice, but I agree, a more modern and fuller exterior remake is sorely needed. It would also be nice if they could add another big garage, pull up some surface parking, and put some more outparcels and greenery (I think someone else suggested that before but it's a good idea). As for the road itself, I think it is doing fine. Most of the stores that have gone out of business there have been replaced, and there is a good selection of furniture stores and restaurants, as well as many apartments through there. There are also new development going on in that area, contrary to some earlier posts. They are finally building on that parcel that was cleared beside Park Haywood, and there is more planned beside it. And I think comparing the road to Pleasantburg is sort of an apple and orange situation. I also think the city has learned a few things form pleasantburg, and will consciously try to avoid the same problems with haywood. One other thing that would help tons, is some entertainment venue to be added here. There used to be a movie theater, but after it closed, there is not another entertainment option that I can think of. The Chapel Hills mall in Colo Spgs has an ice rink built in with it, and hosts little leauge games. Something like that, or heck, even a nice bowling alley would help. A second smaller food court (in different part of mall), with different options would be great too.

[StevenRocks]

What's everyone's quick view of Haywood- particularly StevenRocks? What grade would people give it?

A solid B. It's healthy and growing, but not cutting edge.

[Greenville]

What's everyone's quick view of Haywood- particularly StevenRocks? What grade would people give it?

Say if Tysons Galleria and Lenox Square get A+ grades, SouthPark gets an A-, the Gaston Mall gets an F, Eastland gets a D, the Mall of Georgia gets a B, I'd give Haywood a B-. Big but not huge, good but not great stores, decent anchors but no "big name" upscale department stores, nice interior finally but dated exterior and no outdoor component.

I'd have given McAlister Square a C (somewhat dated and small although decent), Greenville Mall a B- (attractive and good caliber stores but just basically empty) and Bell Tower Mall a D (D for dead, and dated).

If you're giving Greenville Mall a B- (even post-renovations), how can you also give Haywood Mall a B-?!? The fact that Greenville Mall was "nice" is irrelevent considering the fact that it was relatively small and empty. Even in its heyday, it can't hold a candle to Haywood. It had a few higher-end stores, but it also had a lot of stores that never belonged in ANY mall (as well as empty storefronts).

[Jael]

There are tons of people who still like to shop in enclosed malls. (They actually make more sense to me than having to go back to the front of the store, out, down to the next one, then back in).

I'm one of those people who prefers an enclosed mall simply because of weather conditions, and I don't really get the appeal of the new style such as Greenridge. After all, in the summer, it's really hot out there, in the winter, it's cold, sometimes it even rains. Give me a parking garage and an enclosed mall anytime. I can leave my coat or umbrella in the car, make a dash for the door, take care of my shopping and back to the car. One in; one out.

[Spartan]

I agree. I think the grade of a mall, while entirely subjective anyway, should reflect more than the types of stores it has. If people USE the mall, and its not a dying mall, then it gets an "A" in my book. Having "high end" outlets means nothing unless you are talking about the exclusivity of a mall, in which case I would agree that Haywood is a B. While I enjoy Lenox and SouthPark, those places have nothign to offer me except Apple Retail Stores and overpriced clothing stores.

[mallguy]

If you're giving Greenville Mall a B- (even post-renovations), how can you also give Haywood Mall a B-?!? The fact that Greenville Mall was "nice" is irrelevent considering the fact that it was relatively small and empty. Even in its heyday, it can't hold a candle to Haywood. It had a few higher-end stores, but it also had a lot of stores that never belonged in ANY mall (as well as empty storefronts).

At its prime, Greenville Mall met my needs- Harold's and Parisian for clothes, Williams-Sonoma for wedding presents, Oshman's for sports stuff and the Drexel Heritage store for furniture, plus the nice sit-down restaurant across from Harold's that kept closing and re-opening and the movie theater for entertainment. I had no use for Haywood- it had a lot more stores but none that met my needs; it was too mid-market. Del Taco or whatever and the Gap didn't cut it.

[DealMan]

I agree with StevenRocks post in regard to how a mall decays and what the causes are. The main item that most people fail to realize for why a mall goes bad is the "trade area" around it becomes less appealing. The trade area, meaning both the retailers as well as the population demographics. In regard to Haywood, both the population and the income/education components have increased, and continue to increase. This alone is not enough to sustain a mall if the mall owner is not willing to put money into it. Simon has proven they will put money into the interior which keeps the retailers happy and from leaving, as well as keeping most customers happy with their shopping experience, and keeps them spending money there.

In regard to the retail area it has gone downhill some and is aged, but is still a strong corrridor with great traffic, visibility, and some good national retailers. The Mall is located regionally as well, with the I-385 access which helps it appeal to a larger trade area.

The main item that most people are not considering in their posts here, is that the majority of dead malls were dying for approximately 5-10 years before they ever got demalled, or torn down. Haywood Mall keeps trending up with both sales and getting more high quality retailers. It has no signs of trending down or dying, other than the fact that Simon, nor the tenants have done much to spruce up the outside.

Most mall owners are reactive rather than proactive. Once Simon gets word that some of the big name tenants that are negotiating at Magnolia Park/Greenridge are not interested in Haywood, and more of those tenants continue to land there, it will prompt them to begin to spend money to combat that. They are a very aggressive landlord, and have strongholds on many national retailers, due to their relationships.

I think ultimately the competition between Magnolia Park/Greenridge and Haywood will be good because it will get more national retailers focused and interested in Greenville, and it will keep all of the owners of those developments on their toes, and spending money to keep themselves at a competitive equilibrium.

In regard to downtown retail. I am very excited about the changes and growth that retail has made in downtown. The Mcbee Station will be great for the community, and will provide more viability for downtown retail. In regard to mass scale downtown retail with department stores, higher end national restaurants and retailers, I think it will be quite some time 10-20 years before they consider downtown due to various constraints. The main reasons being (1) cannibalization of their other stores, (2) lack of parking and access (3) incomes are still very low for most national retailers, and (4) lack of one synergistic large development where they could all locate together(national retailers are like sheep, and always follow the herd)

[goodbye]

At its prime, Greenville Mall met my needs- Harold's and Parisian for clothes, Williams-Sonoma for wedding presents, Oshman's for sports stuff and the Drexel Heritage store for furniture, plus the nice sit-down restaurant across from Harold's that kept closing and re-opening and the movie theater for entertainment. I had no use for Haywood- it had a lot more stores but none that met my needs; it was too mid-market. Del Taco or whatever and the Gap didn't cut it.

I actually agree with you about Greenville Mall in its last prime. It was a totally different atmosphere than Haywood - more refined and family friendly. Of course, Haywood has changed quite a bit since then (which is very good), but Greenville Mall had just about everything a person could want in such a shopping center.

[gs3]

I agree with StevenRocks post in regard to how a mall decays and what the causes are. The main item that most people fail to realize for why a mall goes bad is the "trade area" around it becomes less appealing. The trade area, meaning both the retailers as well as the population demographics. In regard to Haywood, both the population and the income/education components have increased, and continue to increase. This alone is not enough to sustain a mall if the mall owner is not willing to put money into it. Simon has proven they will put money into the interior which keeps the retailers happy and from leaving, as well as keeping most customers happy with their shopping experience, and keeps them spending money there.

In regard to the retail area it has gone downhill some and is aged, but is still a strong corrridor with great traffic, visibility, and some good national retailers. The Mall is located regionally as well, with the I-385 access which helps it appeal to a larger trade area.

The main item that most people are not considering in their posts here, is that the majority of dead malls were dying for approximately 5-10 years before they ever got demalled, or torn down. Haywood Mall keeps trending up with both sales and getting more high quality retailers. It has no signs of trending down or dying, other than the fact that Simon, nor the tenants have done much to spruce up the outside.

Most mall owners are reactive rather than proactive. Once Simon gets word that some of the big name tenants that are negotiating at Magnolia Park/Greenridge are not interested in Haywood, and more of those tenants continue to land there, it will prompt them to begin to spend money to combat that. They are a very aggressive landlord, and have strongholds on many national retailers, due to their relationships.

I think ultimately the competition between Magnolia Park/Greenridge and Haywood will be good because it will get more national retailers focused and interested in Greenville, and it will keep all of the owners of those developments on their toes, and spending money to keep themselves at a competitive equilibrium.

In regard to downtown retail. I am very excited about the changes and growth that retail has made in downtown. The Mcbee Station will be great for the community, and will provide more viability for downtown retail. In regard to mass scale downtown retail with department stores, higher end national restaurants and retailers, I think it will be quite some time 10-20 years before they consider downtown due to various constraints. The main reasons being (1) cannibalization of their other stores, (2) lack of parking and access (3) incomes are still very low for most national retailers, and (4) lack of one synergistic large development where they could all locate together(national retailers are like sheep, and always follow the herd)

Excellent post and you are SPOT ON!!!! This is a most logical and accurate post. Again, SPOT ON!!

[mallguy]

I agree with StevenRocks post in regard to how a mall decays and what the causes are. The main item that most people fail to realize for why a mall goes bad is the "trade area" around it becomes less appealing... In regard to downtown retail. I am very excited about the changes and growth that retail has made in downtown. The Mcbee Station will be great for the community, and will provide more viability for downtown retail. In regard to mass scale downtown retail with department stores, higher end national restaurants and retailers, I think it will be quite some time 10-20 years before they consider downtown due to various constraints. The main reasons being (1) cannibalization of their other stores, (2) lack of parking and access (3) incomes are still very low for most national retailers, and (4) lack of one synergistic large development where they could all locate together(national retailers are like sheep, and always follow the herd)

I agree with this post but just want to add that malls die as well because newer/nicer centers are built in the same trade area. I definitely see this happening with developments along Woodruff Road, yet another key factor I saw in mall success (based on a study I saw somewhere a few years ago) is that size is a key factor in mall success; the bigger the better, which will definitely protect Haywood.

I also don't see department stores, higher end national restaurants and retailers heading downtown in the near future, as pointed out above. People who think otherwise just need to realize that Greenville is neither a large city nor a tourist town nor a high-income one; it's not Greenwich, CT, Charleston or similar cities in disposable incomes (from tourists or locals) or even set in a large trade area like Stamford, CT is, all of which have high-end department stores and upscale mall-type stores and restaurants downtown. High-end national stores chase large, dense populations with a lot of money and Greenville just doesn't have that (particularly downtown), compared to a lot of other places. Perhaps zoning to steer development downtown rather than in the suburbs (like in Portland, OR, with a growth boundary) would do the trick, but the "zoning = socialism" crowd would never stand for it.

[goodbye]

Perhaps you should have read that article on Carl Sobocinski a couple weeks ago in the Greenville Journal. He for one (and he's not alone) believes Greenville definitely has the foundation for a very strong and successful dining destination in Downtown. With the undeniable growth in tourism, the always steady business conference climate, and the (re)education of local citizens regarding the history and positive changes, I can totally envision downtown becoming more well known as a true "tourist town." There really should be no denying that it has reached that level to an extent already. Just spend time here on a weekend or even an evening during the week. Take notice of the license plates as well. They are in town from places all over the U.S. and Canada - always. This is only a part of the picture, as there are also many visiting from other nations. While most of these are not in town merely to go sightseeing, they do that just the same, and are pleasantly surprised by what they experience here. I don't see any of this going backward - just continuing to get better.

[gs3]

I agree with this post but just want to add that malls die as well because newer/nicer centers are built in the same trade area. I definitely see this happening with developments along Woodruff Road, yet another key factor I saw in mall success (based on a study I saw somewhere a few years ago) is that size is a key factor in mall success; the bigger the better, which will definitely protect Haywood.

I also don't see department stores, higher end national restaurants and retailers heading downtown in the near future, as pointed out above. People who think otherwise just need to realize that Greenville is neither a large city nor a tourist town nor a high-income one; it's not Greenwich, CT, Charleston or similar cities in disposable incomes (from tourists or locals) or even set in a large trade area like Stamford, CT is, all of which have high-end department stores and upscale mall-type stores and restaurants downtown. High-end national stores chase large, dense populations with a lot of money and Greenville just doesn't have that (particularly downtown), compared to a lot of other places. Perhaps zoning to steer development downtown rather than in the suburbs (like in Portland, OR, with a growth boundary) would do the trick, but the "zoning = socialism" crowd would never stand for it.

Nevermind. Not worth the energy.

[linkerjpatrick]

Greenville Mall was big in a certain way but it was the wrong way. It was way too long for some people without some good central access point nor do they have some entrances on the back side where on felt safe. Carolina Place in Charlotte is just as long or longer but it has a lot more entries. That might not be a big deal to some of us who like to go to the Mall to take walks but it remember as a small boy how long it would seems and when you're being dragged along on a shopping trip with parents or other relatives it's literal torture. They same can be said for those with health issues.

Haywood is a lot better situation because it has a central layout, more entry points and two stories with easier access to all the stores. The brick exterior is not a big deal to me. No, it's not very creative looking but it's not ugly either. If I could change anything I would like to see either the food court centrally located or have two food courts by adding one to the other end. At least they have Panera and Ruby Tuesday on the opposite end

[StevenRocks]

The main item that most people are not considering in their posts here, is that the majority of dead malls were dying for approximately 5-10 years before they ever got demalled, or torn down. Haywood Mall keeps trending up with both sales and getting more high quality retailers. It has no signs of trending down or dying, other than the fact that Simon, nor the tenants have done much to spruce up the outside.

Exactly, if there were some continuing signs of decay, there would be cause for concern, but in this case, I think they're going to be okay.

[maninthepark]

You guys that are looking for an Apple Store in Greenville, this may be your lucky day.

Now, I don't know how accurate this imfo. is but this site is pretty good at figuring out new store locations. Click the Link and scroll to the bottom of the page.

If this is true it will help keep Haywood on top of the game.

[goodbye]

You must be refering to the top 20 largest mac-user metro areas without an Apple store? We are #3 on the list. Click Here

Edit: Okay, you obviously meant the reference right above the one I saw.

Haywood Mall - Greenville, SC - A super-regional mall of 1.2 million square feet operated by Simon Property Group along I-385. The mall has 150 shops and draws from a six-county region. In late Feb. 2007 tipsters said Apple is in lease negotiations with the mall for an unknown space. It would be the first Apple store in the state.

I thought Columbia already had an Apple store though.