Is Haywood the next McAlister?

[101_ce]

Agreed and as Greenville continues to have population growth, more in suburbia than in inner-ring neighborhoods, sales will likely go up on Woodruff Road (closer to the growing suburban edge), leading retailers to invest there more.

Agreed. I think that the only way B&N can stay open on Haywood Road is to open at the Haywood Mall in a new lifestyle portion, and be a two story, 40,000 square foot store like the one at the Asheville Mall. Even though the one at Biltmore Park is closer to me than the mall one, I still go to the one at the mall more because the selection is better, and I am in that area a lot anyway. So hopefully if they decide to do that, the sales of both stores will be about the same. The one on Haywood is old, cramped, has a closed layout, and you never really see too many cars in their parking lot.

[gman430]

Enclosed malls are past their peak generally, although Haywood has held up well. If the master plan is not implemented, the store drain will continue, and it WILL eventually affect the mall itself. Do not kid yourself. That is the typical pattern.

I disagree for several reasons:

-Haywood Mall is the only mall in Greenville County and is centrally located.

-It's Simon owned. They will do everything they can to keep the mall from going under.

-At least 98% filled capacity if not more right now.

-There's no where for the mall tenants to go if they do leave Haywood. Greenridge is almost at 100% capacity and Magnolia Park is going nowhere fast.

-The mall has a good mix of upper-end tenants from Apple to J. Crew to Macy's.

Notice none of the tenants that have left Haywood Road for Woodruff Road are from the mall. In fact, Dillard's closed their Woodruff Road store and kept their Haywood Mall one open. Oh and the master plan while nice can't be implemented right now due to costs and SCDOT restrictions.

[mallguy]

Those are good points, but for the sake of argument:

(1) Haywood is the only mall in Greenville, but that doesn't mean it'll be the only mall forever. Look at Greensboro: as far as I know, there's only one mall there, but its area went downhill and the mall has gone downhill, and an open-air center is now attracting the higher-end stores.

(2) Just as Haywood expanded, Greenridge can expand. If I were a real estate developer, I'd be contacting Von Maur and would do whatever it takes to lure it there. Greenridge has a sea of parking lots that could be built up, and stores could be relocated.

(3) I agree that Simon will do what it takes to keep Haywood viable, but Simon does have failed malls (see Raleigh Springs Mall in Memphis and Biltmore Square in Asheville), and Simon definitely has under-invested in Haywood so far. Simon should have already expanded Haywood with a lifestyle center addition and exterior renovation.

(4) Tenants that would have gone to Haywood are already going elsewhere. Anthropologie? Some of the stores at Greenridge (which left Greenville Mall for Greenridge, not Haywood)?

I don't see Haywood going under anytime soon, and it'll likely be the dominant center in Greenville for a while to come, but retail is never totally stable. Who in the pre-mall era would have thought that downtown would collapse in the '80s? I shopped at McAlister a few times a week for years never foresaw it totally closing. Same for Haywood.

[gman]

Bottom line, Greenridge is a mess, both for cars and for foot traffic. There is no way that shopping center will or can improve. Haywood Mall is too well run and too strong to even consider it going down. It's just not going to happen. By the way, there is only one reason for me to get near Woodruff Road, and that is to go to Chipotle. Even then, I get there from Laurens Road and through Verdae, even though that route might take a few more minutes.

[vicupstate]

Haywood Mall is too well run and too strong to even consider it going down. It's just not going to happen.]

It just that attitude that will cause it to fail. Being proactive and on guard will keep the mall from declining, but wishful inaction will only increase the likelhood of a downward trend.

[gman]

It just that attitude that will cause it to fail. Being proactive and on guard will keep the mall from declining, but wishful inaction will only increase the likelhood of a downward trend.

No one has mentioned wishful inaction. Where did you get that from? It's almost as if you want it to fail. Well, it will not fail. They will do what they have to do to keep the mall modern.

[vicupstate]

If you say it 'can't fail', that indicates a belief that no changes are needed. The mall and the city need to proactively help the surrounding area.

Perhaps the mall can survive or even thrive as an island of propsperity in a sea of downward movement, but I can't think of one example of a shopping mall or district ever doing that. Downtowns in the 60's-70's didn't. Eastland Mall, Columbia Mall and Richland Mall didn't thrive long term as their surroundings suffered. Even good management and recruitment won't counter macro level trends and a micro level downward spiral.

I have no desire to see ANOTHER Pleasantburg Drive, circa 1999, but it will take a lot of effort to avoid that outcome.

[mallguy]

If you say it 'can't fail', that indicates a belief that no changes are needed. The mall and the city need to proactively help the surrounding area.

Perhaps the mall can survive or even thrive as an island of propsperity in a sea of downward movement, but I can't think of one example of a shopping mall or district ever doing that. Downtowns in the 60's-70's didn't. Eastland Mall, Columbia Mall and Richland Mall didn't thrive long term as their surroundings suffered. Even good management and recruitment won't counter macro level trends and a micro level downward spiral.

I have no desire to see ANOTHER Pleasantburg Drive, circa 1999, but it will take a lot of effort to avoid that outcome.

Agreed. Unfortunately, post-WWII suburban development largely consists of one suburban ring being built up and then going bad as the next suburban ring is built up, which in turn goes bad when the next suburban ring is built up, and Greenville is no exception to that. Wake up, Simon- you've got the dominant mall in town and you should stop under-investing in it before it's too late!

[gman430]

(1) Haywood is the only mall in Greenville, but that doesn't mean it'll be the only mall forever. Look at Greensboro: as far as I know, there's only one mall there, but its area went downhill and the mall has gone downhill, and an open-air center is now attracting the higher-end stores.

(2) Just as Haywood expanded, Greenridge can expand. If I were a real estate developer, I'd be contacting Von Maur and would do whatever it takes to lure it there. Greenridge has a sea of parking lots that could be built up, and stores could be relocated.

(3) I agree that Simon will do what it takes to keep Haywood viable, but Simon does have failed malls (see Raleigh Springs Mall in Memphis and Biltmore Square in Asheville), and Simon definitely has under-invested in Haywood so far. Simon should have already expanded Haywood with a lifestyle center addition and exterior renovation.

(4) Tenants that would have gone to Haywood are already going elsewhere. Anthropologie? Some of the stores at Greenridge (which left Greenville Mall for Greenridge, not Haywood)?

1. Shops at Greenridge is an open air center right near Haywood Mall and it hasn't affected the mall at all.

2. Crosland wanted to expand Greenridge but wasn't able to due to a certain number of parking spots having to be allocated for every store and restaurant. That has been done and there is no more room left to build anything else there.

3. Hopefully the mall adds a lifestyle addition in the future but it probably won't happen until the economy improves further.

4. Anthropologie stores average 10,000 square feet each. There wasn't enough room at the mall or Greenridge for one. I'd rather have them downtown anyways. Several tenants went to Haywood Mall instead of Greenridge from Greenville Mall including Williams-Sonoma and Eddie Bauer.

Wake up, Simon- you've got the dominant mall in town and you should stop under-investing in it before it's too late!

They did a multi-million dollar renovation to the mall in 2005.

[apaladin]

Didn't they also redo the center court area about a year ago?

[mallguy]

Yes, Simon did a renovation, but it wasn't a complete renovation. Look at what Simon did with SouthPark by comparison- a complete exterior renovation and addition of a lifestyle center.

Yes, Greenridge needs a minimum number of parking spaces per square foot of retail space but just as Haywood built parking garages, so could Greenridge. (And Greenridge has affected Haywood- it has lured some nicer stores that could have gone to Haywood but didn't.)

My points about downtown and Greenridge getting mall chains is that there are other options for retailers to go to besides Haywood; Haywood isn't the only game in town.

[Danmire]

One thing that may make it trickier at Haywood Mall is that the main anchors own their building and associated parking area. So it would need to be Simon + Dillards + Sears + Macys + JC Penney that will need to come together to renovate the exterior. I'm not sure is this is the case with most malls.

[gman430]

Noticed driving by today that the old Wendy's was being fixed up/renovated. Not sure if a lease has been signed or not but I would think one has been going off the amount of activity I saw on site.

[dusty87]

Wow I didn't realize Haywood had a lot of hate. I agree the outside could use a nice update and renovation yet inside is very modern and very up to date. However I think its ridiculous that some of the posters here want Haywood to fail and fall apart. I suppose they'll relish in it when it does and the proceed to screw the empty husk of the mall with pleasure.

[vicupstate]

Wow I didn't realize Haywood had a lot of hate. I agree the outside could use a nice update and renovation yet inside is very modern and very up to date. However I think its ridiculous that some of the posters here want Haywood to fail and fall apart. I suppose they'll relish in it when it does and the proceed to screw the empty husk of the mall with pleasure.

Nonsense!

No one on here wants the mall to fail!! We just don't wear red-colored glasses and live in denial. I've lived long enough to see numerous commercial areas rise, fall,and sometimes (rarely) rise again. That includes several Downtowns, Eastland Mall, Columbia Mall, Greenville Mall, Dutch Square/Center and McAlister, just to name a few.

Prevention is worth a TON of cure, and is a lot less expensive in the long run, money which is largely from taxpayers.

If you are wrong, the area will reach a point to no return and a long period of decline will result.

If I am wrong, the area will simply be nicer that it HAD to be in order to maintain success. Would that be such a bad thing?

[mallguy]

Wow I didn't realize Haywood had a lot of hate. I agree the outside could use a nice update and renovation yet inside is very modern and very up to date. However I think its ridiculous that some of the posters here want Haywood to fail and fall apart. I suppose they'll relish in it when it does and the proceed to screw the empty husk of the mall with pleasure.

I don't want Haywood to fail or fall apart. My problem with it is that it and its surrounding area are not nearly what they could/should be, perhaps due in part to the mall's owners realizing that since it's the dominant center with little competition, they can avoid having to invest to improve the mall.

While Greenville doesn't have the economic base to have a clone of the SouthPark area, Greenville could have on Haywood Road a large regional mall that's attractive both inside and out and that is surrounded by a walkable, aesthetically appealing area that is thriving. Of that, Greenville has a mall that's attractive inside...but that's it.

[gman430]

Former Wendy's on Haywood Road has been leased to St. Louis Grill.

[mallguy]

There is an interesting article that just came out, about America's 10 most endangered retailers. 2 of the 10- Dillard's and JCPenney- are 2 of Haywood's 5 anchors. Expect anchor closings at some point...

[Greenville]

There is an interesting article that just came out, about America's 10 most endangered retailers. 2 of the 10- Dillard's and JCPenney- are 2 of Haywood's 5 anchors. Expect anchor closings at some point...

I am shocked that Sears isn't on that list.

[apaladin]

There is an interesting article that just came out, about America's 10 most endangered retailers. 2 of the 10- Dillard's and JCPenney- are 2 of Haywood's 5 anchors. Expect anchor closings at some point...

Not really, unless they go completely under. Why would they close the location in the largest mall in SC? You would think if it came to that the Haywood Mall stores would be the last to close.

[mallguy]

Not really, unless they go completely under. Why would they close the location in the largest mall in SC? You would think if it came to that the Haywood Mall stores would be the last to close.

Their sales are declining- Dillard's sales declined by around a fourth over the past 4 years. I'll see if I can dig up the article. Sure, they wouldn't close profitable stores unless the whole chain goes under, but it doesn't look good for those chains--Dillard's especially, which I can't figure out, as I like that store.

I believe that Sears was listed as one of the top 10 most endangered retailers; I expected that though.

[101_ce]

Their sales are declining- Dillard's sales declined by around a fourth over the past 4 years. I'll see if I can dig up the article. Sure, they wouldn't close profitable stores unless the whole chain goes under, but it doesn't look good for those chains--Dillard's especially, which I can't figure out, as I like that store.

I believe that Sears was listed as one of the top 10 most endangered retailers; I expected that though.

Dillard's is doing much better than Sears, but not that much. I think they should definitely close some stores, though.

One of the things that is hurting them is their double or even triple stores at the same mall. An expansion & renovation of one store to include both stores consolidated would be costly, but probably worth it in the end. I don't know about everyone, but I'm sure that there are a lot of people who go to another store rather than having to walk all the way over to the other Dillard's. Belk is a little bad for this, but it seems like about every other Dillard's store is a double store (or "double header", etc.)

I think they should consider closing these stores when their lease is up (or whenever....I believe Dillard's owns most of their stores):

AL-Madison Square, Huntsville

FL-Boynton Beach Mall, Boynton Beach

FL-Volusia Mall (Kids/Juinors-West), Daytona Beach

FL-Regency Square, Jacksonville

FL-Orlando Fashion Square, Orlando

FL-University Square, Tampa

GA-Atlantic Station, Atlanta

GA-Mall at Stonecrest, Livonia

NC-Biltmore Square, Asheville

NC-University Mall, Chapel Hill

NC-Oak Hollow Mall, High Point

SC-Aiken Mall, Aiken

As much as I'd love to go through every single state, well, haha.

I generally have a background for all of these malls, but I'm just guessing. So don't get offended if you don't want one of these stores to close.

[mallguy]

Dillard's is doing much better than Sears, but not that much. I think they should definitely close some stores, though.

One of the things that is hurting them is their double or even triple stores at the same mall. An expansion & renovation of one store to include both stores consolidated would be costly, but probably worth it in the end. I don't know about everyone, but I'm sure that there are a lot of people who go to another store rather than having to walk all the way over to the other Dillard's. Belk is a little bad for this, but it seems like about every other Dillard's store is a double store (or "double header", etc.)

I think they should consider closing these stores when their lease is up (or whenever....I believe Dillard's owns most of their stores):

AL-Madison Square, Huntsville

FL-Boynton Beach Mall, Boynton Beach

FL-Volusia Mall (Kids/Juinors-West), Daytona Beach

FL-Regency Square, Jacksonville

FL-Orlando Fashion Square, Orlando

FL-University Square, Tampa

GA-Atlantic Station, Atlanta

GA-Mall at Stonecrest, Livonia

NC-Biltmore Square, Asheville

NC-University Mall, Chapel Hill

NC-Oak Hollow Mall, High Point

SC-Aiken Mall, Aiken

As much as I'd love to go through every single state, well, haha.

I generally have a background for all of these malls, but I'm just guessing. So don't get offended if you don't want one of these stores to close.

Why Atlantic Station? That's a newish store.

Biltmore Square, and any other Dillard's Clearance Center, is doomed.

[101_ce]

Why Atlantic Station? That's a newish store.

Biltmore Square, and any other Dillard's Clearance Center, is doomed.

As beautiful as it is, I have heard rumors of it closing. I think the Target does fine, and the IKEA definitely does, but I don't think that Dillard's does. If you look at the reviews of it, people like it, however, most mention the emptyness of the store.

[mallguy]

I see, from scoping out Black Friday hours, that the Barnes & Noble on Haywood has shorter hours than the Woodruff Road store.

Generally that would mean that the Woodruff Rd. store does more business.