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Raleigh, USA - Big City?


RALNATIVE

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I got this off of the city's website:

Planning District Population

North Hills 28265

University 31303

Central 20647

East 10792

Umstead 16819

Northwest 53364

North 74348

Southeast 37455

Southwest 50290

Northeast 66830

The North Hills, University, Central and East districts are mostly inside the beltline. This is about 91,000 residents. Some of the spillover would take this number down, but if you include students of the areas colleges and universities, I'm sure this would add a good deal more people inside the beltline. A map can be found here of the districts and population figures.

http://www.raleighnc.gov/publications/Plan...anuary_2007.pdf

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Again, I think that the concept of a big city is eluding people. To try and compare Raleigh to older, well-established cities is not fair; furthermore urbanization is not the only factor in determining what is a big city. If you're looking for a Chinatown or a southside ghetto, you're not gonna find one. But again, those types of things typically represent big cities of the past, but will not necessarily define big cities of the present and the future.

I think that going forward, we are going to be forced to change our notions of what a big city is.

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I agree with what a poster said earlier.

While there are many, many progressive cities in the US, there are but a few that I would classify as being "Big City."

I would consider "Big Cities" cities that are livable, walkable, world-class cities:

Chicago

New York

Boston

San Fran

LA

Miami

Atlanta

DC

Dallas/Houston

and maybe another city or two (maybe less). When I think "Big City" I think global. Other comparable cities would be: Sydney, London, Glasgow, Hong Kong, Beijing, Madrid, et al.

Richmond, Raleigh, Charlotte, OKC, and Birmingham (at random) all have their own personal identities, and have some up-and-coming urban cores, but I would consider none as "Big City."

I could however say: "Driving along Tryon is like driving in the big city." Using a simile to compare Tryon to the likes of "World-Reknowns" or "Cary Town is to Richmond as Michigan Avenue is to Chicago." etc.,

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I live in Greensboro and rarely ever go to Raleigh, but decided I would visit downtown Raleigh this past weekend. I enjoyed walking around the City Market area, but I was not that impressed with downtown. I too think Winston-Salem's downtown has a much larger urban feel than Raleigh or Greensboro. Winston-Salem's downtown has come along ways in the past several. Winston-Salem too has a rich past, and it is truly a city that is filled with character and charm. In my opinion, Winston-Salem has be best skyline in NC behind Charlotte.
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I agree with what a poster said earlier.

While there are many, many progressive cities in the US, there are but a few that I would classify as being "Big City."

I would consider "Big Cities" cities that are livable, walkable, world-class cities:

Chicago

New York

Boston

San Fran

LA

Miami

Atlanta

DC

Dallas/Houston

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Just happened by, and OMG! Calm down, folks!

Whoa. An impressive view driving north is inescapable. But there is much more to this impressive view than topography.

Take a right or left turn on one of those "flyovers" and you will land in neighborhoods far more urban and charming than anything you will find miles around!

There is a great deal of blight, but a far greater deal of renewal.

One is by far outpacing the other.

You are welcomed to the Richmond Forum to maybe help you catch up on old times and/or misconceptions.

There is no need to "down" other cities in the Richmond Forum. We can appreciate other cities and still understand how amazing Richmond truly is.

Richmond in a click:

http://www.urbanplanet.org/forums/index.php?showforum=202

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I have never been to Miami, but have been to most of the other Southern Metro areas, and Im not sure if there is any major city in the south that was qualify as walkable. Surely not Atlanta and Houston. Sure Southern Cities have there walkable sections of town... obviously their downtown areas.... Carytown in Richmond (my favorite street in the south) comes to mind, but as a whole.. no city in the south is awash in walkable areas. Cars rule in the South...

I would add Philly and Seattle to that list.. Perhaps at the expense of Atlanta, Dallas, and Houston.

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The lack of a highway passing close to a city makes Raleigh "less" of a city/urban area is crazy. If I-95 followed US 1 into downtown Raleigh when the interstate system was drawn, Raleigh would be a much different city. F Street probably wouldn't have been malled, and there may have been more skyscraper construction. But Oakwood (and probably South Park) would have been obliterated, and the east side would have fallen into even more disrepair if possible. Would it be better if Raleigh was like Richmond (I-95), Charlotte (I-77/277), Winston-Salem (Business 40), or Durham (NC 147)? That is a matter of personal taste, not an automatic "big city" necessity. Ideally a "no at grade intersections road" would have evloved from 440 to downtown via Capitol, New Bern/Edenton, South Saunders/Wilmington, or Hillsborough/Western, but that never happened and won't limit downtown's growth (hopefully).

RTP didn't help things either... it attracted R&D, but took office space with it and spread any potential for density over thousands of acres in a no man's land outside Durham and Raleigh city limits.

"Big city" is relative.... Next to New York, Chicago, LA, to say nothing of international cities like London, Tokyo, Moscow, Berlin, etc., Raleigh is a postage stamp. But next to any city to the east -- Rocky Mount, Greenville, Jacksonville, Fayetville, Wilmington, etc. -- Raleigh is lower case b "big".

Coastal cities like Portsmoth, Wilmington, Charleston, Savanah, etc. had a head start from *colonial* times. This led to their urban feel and are walkable. But how *livable* are they vs. being tourist draws? They are not mistaken for being "big" either. All metros west of the Mississippi started after them, but grew bigger. Some metros like Detroit have decayed for decades, while others like Las Vegas have sprung up in 20 or so years. The Triangle (not just Raleigh) is a half step below "new" cities like Seattle, Charlotte, Tampa, and Jacksonville FL, and a step behind Austin and Portland. Is this a bad thing? I don't think so, as long as we keep making steps forward. Resting/fighting recent growth and/or not managing future growth could make Raleigh another Albany, a state capitol of a decent size but not attracting much outside interest.

Winston and Richmond were built on tobacco... and they (and a lot of eastern NC) are now reinventing themselves in a post-tobacco economy. I was in Winston last fall for an engagement brunch on a Sunday at the Camel Club (named for Reynold's cigarette brand) and there seemed to be few people on the streets other than church services. The Mellow Mushroom across the street seemed interesting, but not too busy. A *lot* more people were in the Haynes Mall area. The same could be said for Raleigh and Crabtree, but F Street's opening and Glenwood South's ongoing rise has drawn a lot more street life on weeknights and weekends.

There are probably similar programs in other cities, but in the last 5+ years, Raleigh has gone from being a passive observer/hoping downtown gets better to doing something about it with the Glenwood South utility burying project, F Street opening, and Convention Center demolition/building. It will never be "world city" big, but it (and Durham) can easily be a world class city if current efforts (zoning, streetscapigng, transit) are continued for the next decade.

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Just happened by, and OMG! Calm down, folks!

I have to agree with Richmonopoly on that case. Whether Richmond "feels more urban" than Raleigh, or anywhere else for that matter, is totally irrelevant. It's a classic case, IMHO, of mixing apples and oranges. As Richmonopoly pointed out, Richmond has had to play by a completely different set of rules than Raleigh, or virtually any other city outside of Virginia, in that it has been locked into its present city limits since, I think, the early '50s. What Richmond has, it came by the hard way. It has had to bootstrap its service core, schools, and everything else from what it could muster from its mid-20th century established tax base. Stalking the next tract home development for annexation simply is not an option there. Yes, on the one hand Richmond has suffered in the quality of services (especially schools) and blighted real estate because of this. Yet, on the other hand, it has forced Richmond to do what Raleigh has not done for the last fifty years (until very recently) -- rennovate and preserve its civic core as a means of survival. I sometimes wondered how life may have been different for Raleigh if the city had cut off annexation above, say Millbrook Road, and retained the tax receipts for a more centralized area. Some years ago the San Fernando Valley (North Hollywood, Van Nuys, etc.) tried to seceed from the city of Los Angeles until they found out they couldn't do it -- they were getting far more benefit from the city treasury than they were actually putting into it.

Step One in the process -- forget about what the neighbors think, and quit judging the neighbors as well.

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Hypersensitivity aside, my point was directed at the original poster who said he is enamored with Richmond's skyline compared to Raleigh's. There are many great things about Richmond, however reread the original post and you'll understand where I'm coming from.

Richmond's problems are that it is too close to D.C./Baltimore to get in the first tier, and it weighted itself down with a strong, industrial economy in the 20th century. Countless cities (Greensboro, Pittsburgh, Cleveland, etc) are trying to dig themselves out of that hole, and Richmond is no exception. Raleigh never had that growth and THAT is why we never had a strong urban core.

The Richmond skyline is quite impressive looking. However up close, many of these buildings are a) not that tall and b) totally ignore pedestrian needs. They look pretty from the highway, but do absolutely nothing for the pedestrian experience. No fault to Richmond people on that. It's just how buildings were built in the 60s, 70s, and 80s. Countless cities are trying to dig themselves out of that hole, too. Atlanta will work for decades to get some form of non-tourist life in their downtown.

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I hope this is a joke. If being the capitol of the confederacy, the state capitol, on the James River, in the corridors of I-64, I-95/295, and I-64, Philip Morris's HQ, mulitiple universities, and within two hours drive of the nation's capitol isn't being "handed the means to survive", what is?
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Interesting observation. I was in Winston-Salem last November for a conference downtown. My impression is exactly the opposite. I didn't feel any urban feel to the downtown area. To me it seemed too open. Basically, Winston-Salem looks good driving along Bus. 40, but when one arrives, there is very little to see. Raleigh looks good from certain angles, though driving along I-40 doesn't provide a good look at downtown. There are some impressive shots (440 between Wake Forest and Atlantic, for example).
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I agree there is a big open area on East 4th Street, but thats because they have torn down a row of old buildings to make way for Civic Plaza which will be a 18 story commercial/residential tower and center city park. One Park Vista, which will be a 10 story $1,000,000.00 a unit high end condo complex is currently under construction on the site now. I don't see how one can say there is not much to see in downtown Winston-Salem. The arcihtecture of some of the buildings is phenominal. All of the shops in the Arts District on Trade. Old Salem on South Main Street. Winston-Salem has a soul, it has a rich past which is present in downtown and the neighborhoods around downtown. I currently live in downtown Greensboro which is extremely lively with all the bars and clubs, but like Raleigh, Greensboro lacks that big city feel in their downtown core areas and I have never been impressed with the skyline views of Raleigh or Greensboro.
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To me, Charlotte looks like a small collection of really tall buildings surrounded by suburban development. I don't believe any of NC's cities give the bigger urban feel you wrote about, like what you'd sense in Baltimore or Richmond.
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Ballantyne, Southpark, Central Ave,South Blvd (Down Light Rail Line), Midtown and the NoDa District are on fire. All with towers planned or U/C. Currently there are 30+ highrises u/c in or around Uptown, with many over 40 floors. Some reaching 50+, and now Trump in the Mix looking to awe the rest of the world with a tower(s) that could define the Southeast in terms of size and elegance.

Currently Small little Charlotte has more building permits within its MSA than the "big cities" being talked about on this thread.

That's right more permits than cities like LA and Miami. So much for suburbia! :whistling:

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