Would you support a casino in downtown GR?

[Mark Miller]

How about a casino/retail/boutiquehotel/familyindoorwaterpark/resort all under one roof?

If a casino only serves the metro area and only takes money from locals, it's a net loss to the community and shouldn't happen (at taxpayers' expense). It's just shuffling the same money around, with the casino owners skimming the profits off the top. Even if the casino puts money back into the community, it was money that was already in the community. Any jobs created would just be people serving people in the community (no net gain). If it can be shown (via an economic impact study) that it will bring in dollars from outside the metro area, then it's a positive and I might support it.

Northender, it's not a matter of being an investor, which you can do voluntarily, it would be in some form of a tax.

There's no way we'd get a Wynn style casino. Where would people park?

Here's a quote from WOODTV:

"It's inevitable that there will be a tax-free casino in Wayland," said Seccia. "The question is, do we want a ghost town (in Grand Rapids) with people traveling down there? Or do we want to keep the best city in Michigan running?"

A ghost town? I'm sorry, but that's a bit over the top. I sometimes wonder if some of these people have ever been to a non-Vegas casino. The casinos in Michigan, Indiana and Minnesota (even the new ones) are very much like bowling alleys. Has anyone seen the warehouse that they plan to turn into the Wayland casino? It's a manufacturing plant where they used to make weed-whackers. They only plant to renovate, not build new, so it will still be a big warehouse. Most people will go once to check it out, and that's it.

[joeDowntown]

I think what Secchia is saying is that developers have worked so hard to build to turn downtown GR into a viable entertainment district, we do not have full traction yet.

I think it is a little aggressive to say Grand Rapids would be a ghost town if Wayland opened. If they built a really cool casino with bars and nightlife, we might have some competition. But Indian casino's (from what I have seen) seem to be pretty forumlaic. One "nice" restaurant, a sports bar, a deli, a buffet and an entertainment venue. Not what I'd call much competition.

However if they go the route of the Hard Rock Casino in Florida (http://www.seminolehardrockhollywood.com/) nightlife downtown could suffer. They have a large number of bars and a whole entertainment district. I went here on business and while I never gambled, I had plenty of fun in the bars and they were bussing people in like crazy.

I think getting a casino operated by the Wynn would be hard, but then again, if you don't set your standards high, why go after one at all? I can guarantee you a classy casino like the Wynn would generate more Arena business, Convention business and more people coming downtown instead of going to Mt. Pleasant, Manistee or Indiana.

And ultimately, if both were built, let's save Wayland for the blue-hairs burning through their retirement.

Joe

[WOT]

Didn't Peter just purchase land across the street from Charlies Crab? A pre-cursor to future hopes?

[GRguy]

Having just been to Las Vegas, a city that is one of the fastest growing in the nation, with condo towers and hotels rising on every available corner, I just don't see the argument that it will ruin the city or create a vast wasteland around it. Ask the motels around Manistee and see if the casino has helped or hurt their businesses. The same for Mt. Pleasant. There was no reason to go to those places before and now, on weekends, they are full up.

I would welcome a higher end casino and believe it would help the downtown all year long. Yes, throw in a waterpark! Yes, throw in a performing arts center!

If the discussion is about gambling addicts, then the obvious extension of that point of view would be to close all bars and restaurants that serve alcohol, as they promote alcoholism.

[NorthEnder]

Didn't Peter just purchase land across the street from Charlies Crab? A pre-cursor to future hopes?

[GRDadof3]

I think when there is a vacuum of leadership and vision for downtown, then dumb ideas percolate to the surface. This is one of them. GRGuy, you and I both know that a casino in downtown Grand Rapids would in no way shape or form resemble Vegas. The up north casinos like Soaring Eagle, Turtle Creek (Traverse City), and Kewadin (Sault Ste Marie) and the others have only spawned a gas station or a Burger King around them, not much else. Am I against one downtown if given an "urban design", probably not (but you KNOW that won't happen because no one is steering the "urban standards" ship). Should taxpayers shell out $200 Million plus for a casino downtown (to make it a decent one as everyone is suggesting)? $200 Million buys a lot of mass transit, which would be a much better economic development tool. Or $200 Million would build a top-notch retail center, performing arts center and/or resort downtown, which would also probably bring in more tourists and dollars then a casino.

I'm glad GRTP backed me up in that the 5 - 10 million visitors a year to Cabela's and the Walker village, and the other Beltline village, are going to be a lot bigger drag on trying to get people downtown then a warehouse-style casino in Wayland. How many people here know exactly where Wayland is?

[AlexPKeaton]

GRDad, Maybe we can build at high speed rail from Dowtown to Wayland It would spur our transit position. Think of the North/South Transit line we have been talking about, but extend it down to Wayland. Keep the park in rides in between and the system could be used for two purposes (getting people to downtown and letting people get to the casino). Maybe the casino would even chip in a little money to fund/build the line.

I don't have any feelings either way if we build a casino in Wayland or downtown. I don't think we need both of them though and the Wayland casino is already ahead of us in this race. So if Wayland's is built first the best we can do is at least take advantage of having it there and conviencing conventions and concerts to be downtown and having the option of them to visit the Casino in Wayland via a fast effiecient transit system. What are your thoughts?

[GR8scott]

I personally cannnot comprehend why a person would gamble if they can't afford it and how they could become addicted to it. Although it seems to happen. I still would be in favor of one because it is another major entertainment draw to DT which would add jobs, more restraunts, hotels, people ect. I think minor crimes might increase like theft but those revenues would be able to support more police jobs and security as well.

Does anyone think that Seccia may be in favor of this as well as others from the hotel and convention bureaus were so opposed to the Wayland one that the Indians vowed to not work with any of businesses in the bureau, a lot of those second hand jobs and contractors will go to Kalamazoo and other area companies and not many from GR or Holland because they were so oppesed. Maybe it will draw money away from GR be residents and visitors might go there and spend there money and local companies will not see a beneifit from it. So wouldnt a DT GR casino help counteract that? Thats what I think

[Mark Miller]

If a casino is built, however, I would like it to fit into the urban fabric, unlike just about every other casino ever. And, just because I'm opposed to a casino doesn't mean I would never go there were it to be built so long as it has a decent poker room.

[Sunlover38]

I personally cannnot comprehend why a person would gamble if they can't afford it and how they could become addicted to it.

[NorthCoast]

No, if the demand and market for one was really there it would've already happened without taxpayer's money. Why make the public pay for something that there isn't even a significant demand for?

So basically...

I'm not opposed to a downtown casino but I'm opposed to the public flipping the bill for one.

[joeDowntown]

I'm sure the employment numbers that a casino generates are pretty massive (and not just low paying jobs). I think the way I am thinking in terms a casino downtown is not your cookie cutter "plus shaped" hotel over a massive casino and parking ramp.

I think if Grand Rapids were to get a casino it should be only on our terms. Build it Grand or go home. I think casinos are very open to anyone who wants them as they are a no-brainer from a money making perspective. So the city would have to say, "this is what we want and nothing less".

Unfortunately, I think our city is lacking in forward-thinking urban planning. This is where my doubts come in. If it is a casino on an island of asphalt and parking garages, give it to Wayland. If it is fully integrated into downtown and is world-class I am all for it.

Also, I think a casino with a large enough draw could actually strengthen the pro-mass transit crowd around here. Especially if profits were set aside for such a project.

Joe

[torgo]

I am mostly against a casino downtown mostly because I don't think it would be the great saving grace that some people seem to think. However, I don't buy the agrument that casinos suck money out of the people who don't have any, because a casino is not some kind of mind-control device. If you don't want to piss away thousands of dollars gambling, then don't go gambling. In my entire life I have probably spent $50 at a casino. I have accomplished this great feat by not going to casinos.

Furthermore, I have absolutely zero confidence that a casino plopped somewhere in the CBD would adhere to any urban design standards. It would be a bunker with gaudy, flashing lights. Pass the Maalox.

[GRDadof3]

What??!!! Sure it would be designed properly. You guys have no faith in our city leaders to hold the line and stand up to development pressures.

We could be so fortunate as to get an urban contextual casino like MGM in Detroit:

LOOK how the parking ramp flows seemlessly into the design and the surrounding street grid! It's like cars don't exist. SEE how the 10 stories and 20 acres of parking garage thrust upward into the heavens, like the piles of quarters spilling out of the slots! FEEL how the ground floor beckons men, women and children to gather and soak up the "sense of place" that eminates from within! It's like mana from heaven come to earth, in the form of neon lights and reflective glass!!! Pools will re-open!! Millennium Park will be expanded! Kids will stop fighting at the bus station! Don't you see it?!

Can I go ahead and start a Grand Rapids casino mega-thread? I can hardly contain myself.

[Libertarian]

Is being designed poorly a function of the casino or a function of local government.

[torgo]

What??!!! Sure it would be designed properly. You guys have no faith in our city leaders to hold the line and stand up to development pressures.

We could be so fortunate as to get an urban contextual casino like MGM in Detroit:

LOOK how the parking ramp flows seemlessly into the design and the surrounding street grid! It's like cars don't exist. SEE how the 10 stories and 20 acres of parking garage thrust upward into the heavens, like the piles of quarters spilling out of the slots! FEEL how the ground floor beckons men, women and children to gather and soak up the "sense of place" that eminates from within! It's like mana from heaven come to earth, in the form of neon lights and reflective glass!!! Pools will re-open!! Millennium Park will be expanded! Kids will stop fighting at the bus station! Don't you see it?!

Can I go ahead and start a Grand Rapids casino mega-thread? I can hardly contain myself.

[AlexPKeaton]

No, if the demand and market for one was really there it would've already happened without taxpayer's money. Why make the public pay for something that there isn't even a significant demand for?

So basically...

I'm not opposed to a downtown casino but I'm opposed to the public flipping the bill for one.

[tamias6]

Right! There are many people that have problems with additions to tobacco and alcohol. Like those substances, gambling can turn into an addiction problem. Therefore why should the city encourage another problem with addiction?

Unfortunately it's usually the ones who can't afford to lose anything are the ones deluded into thinking they'll strike it rich. You're right, we do allow other potentially damaging vices like alchohol so perhaps it's a bit inconsistent to allow one but not the other, and certainly many people are capable of making reasonable choices when it comes to gambling or drinking. But, we do need to ask ourselves what costs we're willing to pay for the benefit a casino could provide.

[Rizzo]

To think a Wayland casino is that detrimental to Downtown, that we must put one there speaks volumes to the true health and vitality of downtown entertainment. All this commotion over a casino makes me think more about the (perceived) condition downtown is in and the mindset some local business leaders share. Its all kind of startling if you ask me.

[GRDadof3]

To think a Wayland casino is that detrimental to Downtown, that we must put one there speaks volumes to the true health and vitality of downtown entertainment. All this commotion over a casino makes me think more about the (perceived) condition downtown is in and the mindset some local business leaders share. Its all kind of startling if you ask me.

[Rizzo]

Then that is even more startling.

I found it interesting that Mr. Secchia had numbers at hand for the Press article. Is that something you can just project based on other casinos? It sounded like he did his homework.

[joeDowntown]

I'm sure he had someone crunching the numbers while he was buying the lot on Market. Just a wild guess though.

Then that is even more startling.

I found it interesting that Mr. Secchia had numbers at hand for the Press article. Is that something you can just project based on other casinos? It sounded like he did his homework.

[Rizzo]

I'm sure he had someone crunching the numbers while he was buying the lot on Market. Just a wild guess though. wink.gif

[torgo]

GRDad and GRTP nailed it when they pointed out that the losses in retail opportunities in Walker, Gr Twp and other places are going to be a lot more detrimental to DT than a casino. They hit the nail right on the head.

[Rizzo]

I don't question that either -- they are correct. What is fundamentally wrong is the notion a single casino has the most detriment to the vitality of downtown. There are plenty of things depreciating downtown that deserve much more action than this casino is getting. Where is the, "Suburban Retail is Enough" group? Where are the action councils for a swift decision on Light Rail and expanded transit -- the funding mechanisms to change the face of Grand Rapids? I suspect it wouldn't be headed by the vary same people promoting downtown and denouncing the casino.