Can anyone name a city where a casino has "energized" a downtown?

[tamias6]

To me the difference between bringing in a casino and bringing in a mass transit system or attracting a mix use development all for the shake of stimulating the local economy is like the difference between feeding one's kid healthy food and feeding him McDonald's all the time. Which is better?

[GR8scott]

Cities looking to add casinos or have them under construction:

St Louis

Cleveland

Erie PA

Dayton

The "nerd herd" of cities.

[joeDowntown]

Sorry, I didn't catch the metro part of the Pittsburgh stat.

What I am saying about population (and I'm thinking in the extremes) is, for example, my parents. They Bought a 2 unit in Heritage Hill. Converted it back to a single family home, converting it from 8 people living in it to two. They sold it five years later (to a young couple) and bought the house next door. Originally built as a duplex. No lie, 15 people living between 2 units; now down to four. So between two houses, the net LOSS to GR (at least this street) was 17 people. Net gain for the neighborhood, about 137%

Joe

Reread GRDad's post. Pittsburgh's metro area is losing population. I'm not entirely sure why you think owner-occupied housing would cause a city's population to decrease either. A house can contain n number of people whether its inhabitants own it not. Unless you're assuming owner-occupied housing tends to have fewer people per unit, which is possible I suppose.

[Rizzo]

When you have a facility catering to the rawest forms of human nature you're bound to run into something unsavory.

[peaceloveunderstanding]

Are there really proposals for a casino in GR? I can't think of anything more unnecessary, building and approving casinos seem to be the last gasp of dying cities.

[torgo]

(older, sort of dumpy white folks in matching track suits with blank expressions, probably pissing away their kid's inheritance, mindlessly cranking coins out of a plastic cup into the slots).

[Rizzo]

Light Rail

[Kib]

Light Rail

[AlexPKeaton]

Well, I'll go out on a limb here and say that the idea of a casino in downtown Grand Rapids is DOA. I really can't see the public getting behind this idea.

The only way it happens is if another group of Indians decides to make a downtown parcel part of their reservation, though I think that's unlikely. All the Indian casinos in Michigan I've seen have been on the edges of town with acres of parking. If one were built I'd prefer it to be downtown, but I'm not holding my breath. Wayland is plenty close anyway.

[GRDadof3]

In this WOOD piece tonight, even Secchia sounds like he doesn't necessarily think it's going to happen (maybe he lurks here), or at least he doesn't sound all that excited about it (and says he wouldn't be an investor):

http://www.woodtv.com/Global/story.asp?S=6282133

GR8Scott,

Thanks for that example of Milwaukee, which also lost -18,000 people from 2000 - 2005, and Milwaukee County lost 25,000 in that time period. Milwaukee County lost 3600 just last year. I'm starting to see a trend I think. No, I know they don't necessarily cause population loss, but I don't think they are the jobs producing machines they are made out to be.

It was fun thinking (laughing) about a casino, on to other topics I guess.

[superNOVA]

I think the point is, the Wayland Casino may hurt downtown GR - actually, it will. Will it be as bad as some have expected, lets hope not. This is Sechia basically saying, OK, have it your way, the only way GR can compete would be to have a casino of their own. However, I doubt that this would ever get any real traction - downtown GR will find other ways to survive.

[AlexPKeaton]

How will it hurt downtown? What will it take away from downtown? There's no gambling downtown as it is, so this isn't direct competition. I suppose some people will go to the casino rather than the downtown bars on the weekends, but I doubt it will be significant enough to pose a threat to downtown. Really the only good argument in favor of a casino is that it complements the convention center and hotels.

[peaceloveunderstanding]

Thanks for that example of Milwaukee, which also lost -18,000 people from 2000 - 2005, and Milwaukee County lost 25,000 in that time period. Milwaukee County lost 3600 just last year. I'm starting to see a trend I think. No, I know they don't necessarily cause population loss, but I don't think they are the jobs producing machines they are made out to be.

It was fun thinking (laughing) about a casino, on to other topics I guess.

[GR8scott]

In this WOOD piece tonight, even Secchia sounds like he doesn't necessarily think it's going to happen (maybe he lurks here), or at least he doesn't sound all that excited about it (and says he wouldn't be an investor):

http://www.woodtv.com/Global/story.asp?S=6282133

GR8Scott,

Thanks for that example of Milwaukee, which also lost -18,000 people from 2000 - 2005, and Milwaukee County lost 25,000 in that time period. Milwaukee County lost 3600 just last year. I'm starting to see a trend I think. No, I know they don't necessarily cause population loss, but I don't think they are the jobs producing machines they are made out to be.

It was fun thinking (laughing) about a casino, on to other topics I guess.

[GRDadof3]

Right on, yes there is a population loss there as well as most other midwestern cities INCLUDING GR, and allthough it seems that there is DT is becomming more vibrant so is Milwaukee's, I am not saying that a casino will save GR or any other city or comparing GR to Milwaukee, I am just pionting out that MIl happens to have a casino, while the city and metro losses jobs, and the DT, still seems more alive than GR. I would not think that a casino would save any city but does seem to be a way that could stop the bleeding and maybe add some revenue for the city, definatly if it is partially funded by the city.

[localtalent]

Well why in the world would we want to emulate all these cities that are losing people? Not only is Milwaukee city losing population, Milwaukee County, which includes Milwaukee and many of its suburbs, is also losing population. It doesn't matter how cool your downtown is if there are fewer and fewer people every year to sustain it. We are not in that same boat.

[GRDadof3]

Moral arguments aside (which I admit are a difficult and necessary discussion for any community), the economics of any casino that COULD actually get built in GR (ie, it wouldn't be a Native American style bingo hall/slot room) would clearly be a net positive to the economy.

[AlexPKeaton]

If a casino turns a profit what's wrong with it being taxpayer funded? The city would see the profits much like the city profits from its parking lots. That said, I am uncomfortable with the government getting into a business that it doesn't really belong in.

[localtalent]

Yes, but enough of an economic impact for us taxpayers to fund it? is the question. I believe the convention center is 75% publicly funded, 25% privately funded. Are there better economic tools that we can be spending our money on, that doesn't put us in the same class as cities on the decline, but rather in company of cities on the upswing?

[GRDadof3]

I don't think the debate should be framed in the manner of putting us in a "class of cities on the decline", but your question about whether the economic impact justifies taxpayer funding of the effort or even citizen approval of such an enterprise is entirely valid.

It would be interesting to see some real exploration of the issue as it relates specifically to the Grand Rapids MSA.

[Prankster]

Why not? I think any venture like this should be looked at as how does this affect how the GR metro area is portrayed around the country, not how we stack up against Wayland. If you look at cities that have invested in downtown casinos, they are 95% cities on the decline. As moonshield noted earlier, and I completely agree, they are the last gasp of a dying city (or perceived that way).

[GRDadof3]

Not to dispute what you are saying, but how would you perceive Chicago if they opened a casino downtown. Daley has really pushed for it in the past, and I thought I read that it was still on the backburner.

[joeDowntown]

I agree that the negatives outway the positives. Only if you could get a world-class casino integrated with the city, with profits going back into city projects, would I call it a success. Which is very unlikely.

If it is a bingo hall, Wayland can have it. Russ' restaurant would likely see a bigger negative impact than downtown.

Chicago already has a very big identity and a huge number of entertainment/shopping/cultural/sport options. One or two casinos would just be a drop in the bucket for how they are perceived. Grand Rapids, on the other hand, does not have a well-established "identity", and its downtown entertainment options are limited. Also, a casino or two in downtown would probably dominate the skyline, especially at night. Not Chicago's. Plus, once our city leaders got a taste of casino cash, they'd be under a lot of pressure to expand it to more and bigger casinos (like Detroit). Not a road we should even venture down, IMO.

Does that make sense?