Downtown Tourism impacts on Retail Issues

[goodbye]

I am less hasty to sell downtown Greenville short on major retail. Just as the idea that major retail could be implemented downtown is based on assumption, so the idea that major retail would struggle downtown is also based on assumption. Without any valid experiences to show otherwise, I am not inclined to believe a large department store (even if it is not as large as one in a mall) would struggle to survive. In fact, based on the amount of people out on the streets downtown throughout the year, plus the incredible amout of dining options, there is tremendous potential for major retail to be brought back into the heart of the city. With the new hotels and residential units being added, we'll need something substantial to offer more guests and citizens here. Taking a look at one example (albeit a smaller one), Mast General Store is a success, even without other major retail to help bring people in.

[GvilleSC]

Good points. But I think the issue is this: can tourism combined with Downtown residents reach the point that it can sustain mall-type stores (not necssarily department stores)?

[Spartan]

Its more than department stores though. What about those trendy places like American Eagle, GAP, Limited, etc. And all of those other stores? Those are small enough to fit in most any place downtown. Thats the type of store I had in mind.

[mallguy]

Its more than department stores though. What about those trendy places like American Eagle, GAP, Limited, etc. And all of those other stores? Those are small enough to fit in most any place downtown. Thats the type of store I had in mind.

[Greenville]

Stores like that appear to be the most likely bet downtown, I also think- given how close American Apparel was to coming to the West End.

[goodbye]

I honestly find it hard to believe that most people would rather fight the traffic on Woodruff Road from store to store, rather than park in a garage downtown and walk (or hop on a trolley) from store to store, and take in so much more if they desire. My heart tells me that if the major retail options were available downtown, many people would change their habit of regularly driving around other parts of the city to shop. It is so logical, yet...

[distortedlogic]

I honestly find it hard to believe that most people would rather fight the traffic on Woodruff Road from store to store, rather than park in a garage downtown and walk (or hop on a trolley) from store to store, and take in so much more if they desire. My heart tells me that if the major retail options were available downtown, many people would change their habit of regularly driving around other parts of the city to shop. It is so logical, yet...

[DealMan]

You guys can start the clock ticking. It will be 10 years minimum before downtown Greenville gets a traditional department store or any higher end traditional mall retailers ie Gap Companies, Abercrombie Companies, Limited Companies, etc...

Apparently no one agrees or understands what I have been saying in my previous posts hahaha.

[vicupstate]

You guys can start the clock ticking. It will be 10 years minimum before downtown Greenville gets a traditional department store or any higher end traditional mall retailers ie Gap Companies, Abercrombie Companies, Limited Companies, etc...

Apparently no one agrees or understands what I have been saying in my previous posts hahaha.

[mallguy]

You guys can start the clock ticking. It will be 10 years minimum before downtown Greenville gets a traditional department store or any higher end traditional mall retailers ie Gap Companies, Abercrombie Companies, Limited Companies, etc...

Apparently no one agrees or understands what I have been saying in my previous posts hahaha.

[GvilleSC]

Considering that the city is working hard on attracting national retailers to downtown, I can't see this being that far off. The first national retailer might NOT be what we're exactly referring to on here, but all we necessarily need is ONE to prove itself in the market. I'm not sold on it being that far off.

[mallguy]

Considering that the city is working hard on attracting national retailers to downtown

[DealMan]

Agreed Mallguy. I dont think that most of the people on the blog understand how much a developer and a city has to give away to the retailers and the developers to entice them to do these deals. The problem is the land in an urban area costs so much more than a suburban area, and these retailers are used to getting highly incentivized deals to come into these areas. Therefore it is that much harder to coax them into these areas. Most of the successful downtown deals in the past couple of years such as the ones you mentioned are brownfield, or very blighted areas that the city is willing to give TIF funding or other tax dollars to the developer or the retailer to get involved in. The problem is that Main Street is not blighted or brownfield, and so the site is going to have to be very large in scope and most likely not close to Main Street. Many of these urban developments are over 15 acres and it is hard to assemble large chunks of land in urban settings also. In a suburban setting 15 acres might yield 150,000-200,000 SF of commercial space, but in an urban setting in can yield 4 to 5 times as much.

[distortedlogic]

You guys can start the clock ticking. It will be 10 years minimum before downtown Greenville gets a traditional department store or any higher end traditional mall retailers ie Gap Companies, Abercrombie Companies, Limited Companies, etc...

Apparently no one agrees or understands what I have been saying in my previous posts hahaha.

[goodbye]

Keep in mind that several very attractive locally-owned businesses have recently closed up downtown.

[breed]

I know that's what city leaders say they're doing but what are they actually doing? Just keeping their fingers crossed? Or are they going to retail conventions, constantly talking to retailers, working to provide financial incentives to retailers coming downtown, etc.? Cities that have lured downtown department stores, such as Cincinnati and Pittsburgh, have sometimes basically built the store for the retailer and have then given the retailer a great deal on rent. That's a bit much but that's what it takes sometimes; are Greenville leaders doing that much, or something similar for small stores?

[mallguy]

I see in the March Shopping Center Business that downtown Greenville sales are $110 million. If a typical decent mall has $300 in sales per square foot, this would equal 367,000 sf of retail space downtown doing a good business, which would bode well for future tenant possibilities. Does anyone know how many square feet of retail space is downtown? If it's 367,000 sf or less, that is a very good sign. Not sure if the $110 MM figure includes restaurants.

BTW I am excited about McBee Station. Although I have no back-up support for this statement, I'd assume the 35,000 sf of small-shop space (according to Shopping Center Business) will be filled by tenants that are also in basically every other strip mall in North America- a Great Clips, a nail place, a Blockbuster and a pizza place, but at least it's more downtown retail.

[GvilleSC]

I'd highly doubt you'd see things on the level of a great clips at McBee Station. This isn't your Walmart anchored shopping center. I'd say that the tenants are going to be shops similar to the ones that you'd typically find on Augusta Street. It's all speculation, but a 'Great Clips' would be a smack in the face to downtown and the development itself.

[mallguy]

I'd highly doubt you'd see things on the level of a great clips at McBee Station. This isn't your Walmart anchored shopping center. I'd say that the tenants are going to be shops similar to the ones that you'd typically find on Augusta Street. It's all speculation, but a 'Great Clips' would be a smack in the face to downtown and the development itself.

[whitehourseview]

I'd highly doubt you'd see things on the level of a great clips at McBee Station. This isn't your Walmart anchored shopping center. I'd say that the tenants are going to be shops similar to the ones that you'd typically find on Augusta Street. It's all speculation, but a 'Great Clips' would be a smack in the face to downtown and the development itself.

[GvilleSC]

Out of curiosity, why is a barber a slap in the face of downtown? Are folks downtown, so benighted that they don't need discount hair cuts, or is it a symbol of progress to have boutique salons where the same hair cut costs $50?

There are already Great Clips at the Shops of Greenridge, Cherrydale, Verdae, and Millstone Plaza off Pelham Road

[whitehourseview]

A barber is fine. Lewis Plaza has a barber.

I wouldn't want a Great Clips for the same reason people don't want a Piggly Wiggly. There is a suburban association with the name. They can have Great Clips at Cherrydale, Verdae, Shops of Greenridge, and Millstone. Where are they located? In a suburban strip mall. This is downtown with an urban environment and CHARACTER. Maybe Walmart will come next

[GvilleSC]

I'm slow, does Publix have a suburban association with the name?

[mallguy]

Having lived in places like Cambridge, MA, which have everything one needs to live in a small downtown area, I think of what downtown Greenville has in terms of one's needs for daily survival, and lacking a barber shop is a key one, plus some other basics such as a normal men's clothing store (for things like socks). Hopefully McBee Station will have some of them, even if it is a Great Clips or a fancier barber such as the Art of Shaving.

[GvilleSC]

One thing that I think could potentially help retail downtown would be to implement the trolley idea that connects downtown to Augusta Street shopping. If this was done, then possibly people would shop in either district and ride to the other location to shop. Who knows, but maybe some people who knew they could shop at the downtown art galleries and easily access Augusta Commons, McDaniel Village, Lewis Plaza would be more inclined to shop downtown...? This would be helpful for tourist who are unfamiliar with the area as well. Who knows. I do think a greater connection between Augusta Street and downtown is important though, whether it's through the Church Street revitilaztion or Augusta Street via the West End. I'd love to be able to take the trolley all the way down Augusta to Lewis Plaza and then ride back down McDaniel and see the picturesque old money neighborhood of Alta Vista.