The State of Downtown Grand Rapids Retail

[PR-15]

PR-15, Admittedly, the DA was probably the wrong place to go or the wrong vehicle to get things done. But then why are they being charged with the KIAS campaign?

The KIAS campaign was not necessarily "charged' to the DA. Orginally, the DA just wanted to create a comprehensive web site/resource for what to do downtown and help promote the DID assessment area via a web site.

During that time frame of exploring the possibility of creating a new web site, it was also discussed how badly Grand Rapids lacks an identity within the region and that a marketing campaign for downtown would be helpful for retailers within the DID.

The result was a web site/branding/marketing initiative . The DA took it upon itself to go to the DDA to secure funds to execute both projects and here we sit.

FWIW...KIAS has evolved into the "Let's Go" campaign which I think is a major improvement from KIAS.

There is always a fair share of arm chair QBing with these kinds of things. It comes with the territory. But the DA has at least been aggressive in trying to elevate the profile of the DID and it's current retailers. It's understandable that the tactics employed are not perceived as a home run and 100% concensus is never possible. I would say that the DA may have ventured a little far from their original mission of beautification and that there will never be one organization with a "silver bullet" to solve the problems facing DT GR.

I sincerely hope that other entities (both public and private) also step up to the plate and take as big a swing as the DA has...the DA has taken some lumps in the process and justifiably so...but we can all do more.

[joeDowntown]

Again PR-15, some of your points are valid but:

1) Even if the Downtown Alliance "took it upon themselves" to go to the DDA, the Keep it a Secret campaign was a flop. Even if the original goal was an unfolding strategy, to transition from "Keep it a Secret" to "Let's Go" without any milestones and action items (I hate these terms but they fit here) is not only a waste of money, it is irresponsible since the money ultimately comes from the people who need a campaign the most. You can't procure $160 or $180K for a campaign and then say "well at least we tried".

2) Website: The website is just plain awful. This ominous reserve exposure background is not only uninviting, it is also completely annoying as a user. To me, the only thing they needed to do was add spooky ghost figures and cobwebs to make the picture complete. There are many ways to setup a website like this without spending very much money. Unfortunately, they do not want to tap into the people that could help them, that offered to help them.

3) Everything always ends in a conversation about "we have no money". I would like to ask a simple question. If Wealthy Street, Cherry, and Fulton (Uptown) can deliver incredible looking banners, build a cohesive shopping district from a bunch of streets that are geographically separated, build pamphlets to get the word out when construction is going on, *NOT* lose traction during a summer of construction, how can we not say that the Downtown Alliance is failing in their job. Innovation does not come from unlimited budgets. It comes from passionate people who aren't resolved to "it is what it is".

4) What about the volunteers? What about us? Why didn't they follow up. There was a *LOT* of talent in the meeting (from the UP side at least) from many different disciplines, chomping at the bit to make it better. Why do we run around town figuring out what could be done, affordably, to make the core a more interesting place, but the committee has very little interest.

5) Why do they NOT have lightning focus on their constituents needs? Funding for GRPS is noble. It just isn't part of their charter. They washed their hands of ever helping to bring more retailers downtown, even if the prospective retailer fell in their lap. If this is not something they can help with because it 1) isn't their job, 2) don't have funding, how could "Crayons for Kids" all of the sudden be a part of what they do.

Here's the deal. I am sick of watching *MY* city being run by people who lack vision. If they want vision, include the people that will spend their nights and weekends making it better. We have offered, they have ignored.

This is something that I would like people to think about for a moment, as it is probably the most important point that can be made about our online community:

Urban Planet {sodEmoji.|} Grand Rapids has become a powerful voice in this community. People are lurking on this forum who make (or more so, don't make) the decisions for this community. And as it was pointed out to me, a lot of these people are intimidated by our voice. We don't have newspapers to sell, we don't have back office politics, and we don't have revenue we need to generate, or worry about, by pointing out the good, bad and the ugly.

Your voice, as part of UP {sodEmoji.|} GR is now a powerful influencer in what is going to happen in our city. This is the time to point out the status quo, and bust through the red tape. I want everyone to realize that as part of this community (UP and Grand Rapids), it is time to make a stand. Do we want elected officials to pick and choose what project they like and don't like? Which developers they like and don't like? Who has scratched their back so unbiased economic growth is no longer a factor? Visionless people promoting / not promoting our city. Incentives going to waste.

I hate to say I am rallying the troops, but I *am* rallying the troops. Pay attention to what is, and is not happening and realize that this forum is one of the most viable tools *ANYONE* has available to them right now to make things right in Grand Rapids.

You don't have to like me. You don't have to agree with me. But you should, for the good of Grand Rapids help to make things better, more streamlined, and make sure that the next huge developer that comes to town because they know GR is a gem, does not walk away because Grand Rapids is a "closed shop".

Joe

[Rhino6885]

Great comments...Joe especially. You're absolutely right. I specifically remember members of the DA say they read this site.

I sensed arrogance from a couple of the members. Almost like "What the hell are you doing here...we know what we're doing." Granted, they were on the defense because they smelled our dislike of KIAS from a mile away (which was never mentioned by us. They brought it up, but we didn't say anything). If I remember correctly, they were slightly upset that they have been given the duty of beautification/trash removal without much help from the city. Our ideas to remedy this were listened to, but that's about it. Our recommendations were taken by the DA like a 4 year old's poor crayon drawing. My point is, we weren't there to do anything but help their cause, and we were basically shot down. East Hills is succeeding because it is made up of a diverse group of people--age, race, political beliefs, incomes, etc. When you have a group made up of white, mid-upper class Republicans in their upper 40's+, not much innovation can be achieved. If money is a problem, interns can be had for FREE from GVSU, and there is obviously UP. Regardless of what excuses they give, the DA has the ability to influence retail growth, but doesn't seem to have the desire. (Remember: "Retail will be the last thing. We've always known that")

[GRDadof3]

The KIAS campaign was not necessarily "charged' to the DA. Orginally, the DA just wanted to create a comprehensive web site/resource for what to do downtown and help promote the DID assessment area via a web site.

During that time frame of exploring the possibility of creating a new web site, it was also discussed how badly Grand Rapids lacks an identity within the region and that a marketing campaign for downtown would be helpful for retailers within the DID.

The result was a web site/branding/marketing initiative . The DA took it upon itself to go to the DDA to secure funds to execute both projects and here we sit.

FWIW...KIAS has evolved into the "Let's Go" campaign which I think is a major improvement from KIAS.

There is always a fair share of arm chair QBing with these kinds of things. It comes with the territory. But the DA has at least been aggressive in trying to elevate the profile of the DID and it's current retailers. It's understandable that the tactics employed are not perceived as a home run and 100% concensus is never possible. I would say that the DA may have ventured a little far from their original mission of beautification and that there will never be one organization with a "silver bullet" to solve the problems facing DT GR.

I sincerely hope that other entities (both public and private) also step up to the plate and take as big a swing as the DA has...the DA has taken some lumps in the process and justifiably so...but we can all do more.

Not to take away from Joe's elequent post, but how exactly has the DA been "aggressive" in trying to elevate the profile of downtown? As you and others have said, when it comes to beautification of downtown, they've obviously done the best job I've seen in any downtown. But as Joe said, I'd be willing to look at a little bit more trash if it was the foreground of a teaming vibrant retail district.

It just comes down to the same circular argument that was presented at the meeting with the DA:

We say: "Downtown retail is lackluster and really needs a boost, or even the best marketing campaign will be a flop"; they say "well you won't get more retailers downtown until there is more traffic" (hmmm, how did Cherry St accomplish that then); "Well it's not our job to lure retailers into downtown that might compete with our current members" Huh???!!!! Then you're right, the DA should not be at all involved in kick-starting downtown retail, because part of that responsibility is ACTIVE RECRUITMENT and RETENTION, which may involve working with a competitor of a current downtown business owner.

How do you break that stalemate? It's defeatism and it doesn't solve problems.

As others have said, "Retail is the face of a downtown". You can have all the medical developments in the world up on the hill, but when people who are looking at relocating to Grand Rapids (which we WANT and NEED, right?) drive through downtown, they judge the city by the street level activity. Is it just the lunchtime crowd? What if someone relocating comes through downtown on a Saturday or Sunday afternoon or in the early evening "non-bar" hours. Is it dead? Does anyone live in this city? What about conventioneers impressions? As we get bigger and longer shows at Devos Place, people will be staying in the area longer. Will they need to be bused out to Rivertown Crossings because there are no retailers downtown still?

Isolationism does not grow a downtown economy. Open free markets and aggressive recruitment (with incentives if necessary) does.

[Veloise]

...As we get bigger and longer shows at Devos Place, people will be staying in the area longer. Will they need to be bused out to Rivertown Crossings because there are no retailers downtown still?

...

Parenthetically, last night when I rode through, there was a swarm of folks walking from DVP towards the new GRAM. The sidewalk was packed, and it looked like one of those charity stride events.

ETA: They were the GRAM members who'd attended the music at the hall, and were segueing to the subject property.

Couple hours later I was back DT at my "office" (FF's outdoor tables and wifi), and there were still a slew of people wandering around. Had a great conversation with a visitor from DC (historic preservationist, in town to take a tour of Saugatuck). She asked what that pretty new lit-up building was; apparently her tour organizers did not get the memo.

(On Saturday I heard that GRAM's formal event's rain location was the AGP, and the intention was to drive everyone the block down the street.)

Edited October 5, 2007 by Veloise

[GRDadof3]

Parenthetically, last night when I rode through, there was a swarm of folks walking from DVP towards the new GRAM. The sidewalk was packed, and it looked like one of those charity stride events.

Couple hours later I was back DT at my "office" (FF's outdoor tables and wifi), and there were still a slew of people wandering around. Had a great conversation with a visitor from DC (historic preservationist, in town to take a tour of Saugatuck). She asked what that pretty new lit-up building was; apparently her tour organizers did not get the memo.

(On Saturday I heard that GRAm's formal event's rain location was the AGP, and the intention was to drive everyone the block down the street.)

Great point! Sometimes I wish I had a video camera when I am on Monroe Center. You can pick out the "visitors" every time, and I'd love to videotape their movements, facial expressions and actions when they wander up Monroe Center, and then interview them afterward. First of all, not all of them come up Monroe Center. Many stay in the Devos Place/AGP/180 Monroe block and see the big intersection at Pearl and Monroe as a giant "chasm" not worth crossing. Definitely the GRAM beckons more people to go exploring with its unusual lanterns on top. But it's interesting seeing the puzzled looks as people reach Ottawa and Monroe Center. Do we proceed? Is there anything further up worth going to? Then the 360 degree turns in every direction trying to get barrings straight, looking up at the interesting architecture on the buildings at that corner, some walk over to the wayfinding map that honestly doesn't help anyone going shopping, because it doesn't list retailers.

You also notice that the demographics shift dramatically in that one block stretch from Ottawa to Ionia. Monroe Center near RPC seems to be a lot of suits and workers eating lunch, with a few people dressed casually mixed in. As you get up past Ionia, it shifts to a lot of "college-aged" people dressed more casually, and a lot fewer "suits".

BTW: I think all those people are downtown for the Gordon Food Service convention.

[Veloise]

Here's a Tamias pic. What are those funky things hanging from the lightpoles??

[wingbert]

Here's a Tamias pic. What are those funky things hanging from the lightpoles??

At this point I think if Joe had his way, it would be the DA hanging from the lightpoles.

[Veloise]

Existing

Proposed

Existing

Proposed

Existing

Proposed

Existing

Proposed

Existing

Proposed

[GRDadof3]

Proposed

That one kills me. Nice work Veloise on all of these!

[joeDowntown]

I don't hate the people, just the apathy. I think if city officials got half as fired up about downtown as we do, Grand Rapids would be lightyears ahead of itself.

I find it funny that:

1) Nobody has come out in defense of the city or the Downtown Alliance's achievements.

2) Nobody *from* the city or Downtown Alliance has come out in defense of their achievements.

This is an open forum, step inside the ring people.

Joe

At this point I think if Joe had his way, it would be the DA hanging from the lightpoles.

[Rizzo]

Again PR-15, some of your points are valid but:

1) Even if the Downtown Alliance "took it upon themselves" to go to the DDA, the Keep it a Secret campaign was a flop. Even if the original goal was an unfolding strategy, to transition from "Keep it a Secret" to "Let's Go" without any milestones and action items (I hate these terms but they fit here) is not only a waste of money, it is irresponsible since the money ultimately comes from the people who need a campaign the most. You can't procure $160 or $180K for a campaign and then say "well at least we tried".

2) Website: The website is just plain awful. This ominous reserve exposure background is not only uninviting, it is also completely annoying as a user. To me, the only thing they needed to do was add spooky ghost figures and cobwebs to make the picture complete. There are many ways to setup a website like this without spending very much money. Unfortunately, they do not want to tap into the people that could help them, that offered to help them.

3) Everything always ends in a conversation about "we have no money". I would like to ask a simple question. If Wealthy Street, Cherry, and Fulton (Uptown) can deliver incredible looking banners, build a cohesive shopping district from a bunch of streets that are geographically separated, build pamphlets to get the word out when construction is going on, *NOT* lose traction during a summer of construction, how can we not say that the Downtown Alliance is failing in their job. Innovation does not come from unlimited budgets. It comes from passionate people who aren't resolved to "it is what it is".

4) What about the volunteers? What about us? Why didn't they follow up. There was a *LOT* of talent in the meeting (from the UP side at least) from many different disciplines, chomping at the bit to make it better. Why do we run around town figuring out what could be done, affordably, to make the core a more interesting place, but the committee has very little interest.

5) Why do they NOT have lightning focus on their constituents needs? Funding for GRPS is noble. It just isn't part of their charter. They washed their hands of ever helping to bring more retailers downtown, even if the prospective retailer fell in their lap. If this is not something they can help with because it 1) isn't their job, 2) don't have funding, how could "Crayons for Kids" all of the sudden be a part of what they do.

Here's the deal. I am sick of watching *MY* city being run by people who lack vision. If they want vision, include the people that will spend their nights and weekends making it better. We have offered, they have ignored.

This is something that I would like people to think about for a moment, as it is probably the most important point that can be made about our online community:

Urban Planet {sodEmoji.|} Grand Rapids has become a powerful voice in this community. People are lurking on this forum who make (or more so, don't make) the decisions for this community. And as it was pointed out to me, a lot of these people are intimidated by our voice. We don't have newspapers to sell, we don't have back office politics, and we don't have revenue we need to generate, or worry about, by pointing out the good, bad and the ugly.

Your voice, as part of UP {sodEmoji.|} GR is now a powerful influencer in what is going to happen in our city. This is the time to point out the status quo, and bust through the red tape. I want everyone to realize that as part of this community (UP and Grand Rapids), it is time to make a stand. Do we want elected officials to pick and choose what project they like and don't like? Which developers they like and don't like? Who has scratched their back so unbiased economic growth is no longer a factor? Visionless people promoting / not promoting our city. Incentives going to waste.

I hate to say I am rallying the troops, but I *am* rallying the troops. Pay attention to what is, and is not happening and realize that this forum is one of the most viable tools *ANYONE* has available to them right now to make things right in Grand Rapids.

You don't have to like me. You don't have to agree with me. But you should, for the good of Grand Rapids help to make things better, more streamlined, and make sure that the next huge developer that comes to town because they know GR is a gem, does not walk away because Grand Rapids is a "closed shop".

Joe

You got some energy there Joe. You're the boss.

But at the risk of destroying the character of Grand Rapids, maybe we should take the wait-and-see approach to this. Play it a little safe.

In calling for change, what was it that we use to say, "release the hounds!"

Edited October 6, 2007 by Rizzo

[Veloise]

Here's what I worked on while enjoying the GRAM cafe.

Edited October 6, 2007 by Veloise

[PR-15]

Not to take away from Joe's elequent post, but how exactly has the DA been "aggressive" in trying to elevate the profile of downtown? As you and others have said, when it comes to beautification of downtown, they've obviously done the best job I've seen in any downtown. But as Joe said, I'd be willing to look at a little bit more trash if it was the foreground of a teaming vibrant retail district.

Not to take away from Joe's elequent post, but how exactly has the DA been "aggressive" in trying to elevate the profile of downtown?

The DA has been "aggressive" outside of it's main goal of DID beautification. To my knowledge, the DA has recently executed the following efforts to elevate the profile of downtown GR. I'm not saying the tactics are perfect, okay JoeDowntown ?

1. It has paid for and created the web site www.downtowngr.org (no small undertaking regardless of the skeletal god awful background that makes me want to puke).

2. It has paid for the "Let's Go" campaign that is currently advertised on Rapid buses (formerly KIAS).

3. The DA has paid for a new walking map of downtown that highlights restaurants, retailers, bars and parking structures within the DID...it also is branded "Let's Go."

4. It has paid significant dollars to help make the Grand Rapids/Tim Allen/Pure Michigan radio spot a realilty that also uses "Let's Go" within the script.

5. It annually hangs and pays for the Christmas decorations and lights that hang along Monroe Center.

6. It partially funds an inebriate center at Mel Trotter that helps to care for and keep chronically intoxicated people from sleeping it off on our downtown streets, storefronts and sidewalks.

There are probably a lot more things I'm missing...that's off the top of my head. Again, argue tactics all you want and I'll agree with you much of the time..but the DA has stepped up and taken a big swing.

I agree with everything that JoeDowntown posted. Passion like his will collectively move this city to great new heights. Unfortunately I was not at the meeting with the DA that upset so many UPers. I share your frustration. This forum is full of bright people with sound ideas and passion.

GRDad, realtors and property owners share some responsibility in this as well. What are they doing to aggressively market empty spaces? What is their plan and vision for downtown retail? How are they going to execute their vision? They control the empty storefronts and lose revenue every month they stay empty...not the DA, DDA or CAA.

I hardly believe there is a landlord in this town that wouldn't rent prime retail space to a Coldstone Creamery just because Four Friends sells gelato...or that Coach is not welcome because we have a Groskopfs...or that Prada or Saks can't locate here because we have Boutique Emanuel in the Amway Grand.

But there seems to be some impression that this is the case. I say hogwash...developers and building owners need cash and tenants bring cash. They can't afford to keep out viable tenants.

Last I checked we have a Starbucks, Beaners and Four Friends all within about 30 yards of each other all selling the same products/experience. To a layman like me, all of them seem to be doing quite well. I would argue that Four Friends is largely full. I go there 3-4 times a week and am overjoyed that they seem to be thriving with big corporate competitors right in their face.

Let that be a lesson for anyone who thinks competition is bad or supports some crazy belief that downtown can't handle a mix of tenants competing in similar products/services.

The Cherry/Lake/Diamond success that you speak about is largly due to motivated and creative landlords. Guy Bazzani works a niche like nobody's business and it's been great for East Hills. But I wonder how many knick knack shops like Mena Imports, Global Infusion, Art Beat and Yours Truly will be thriving 2-3 years from now. I wish them all the best but it's going to be a tough go. (For the record, I don't believe Bazzani rents to any of the stores I just mentioned.)

Lastly, downtown GR is plagued by building squatters waiting for a huge payday from their dilapitated buildings that they won't sink a dime into improving them or downtown in the process. They don't even want tenants...they want to hold a building hostage until they get an unrealistic price. The refuse to engage in imaginative thought regarding their assets. May they all rot like their buildings...end rant.

[AlexPKeaton]

So Chris Knape is reporting that we're getting a new healthful grocery store downtown. Anybody know anything more? With fresh produce and all will this be enough to keep downtown residents from having to drive out to Meijer?

Edited October 6, 2007 by AlexPKeaton

[GRDadof3]

The DA has been "aggressive" outside of it's main goal of DID beautification. To my knowledge, the DA has recently executed the following efforts to elevate the profile of downtown GR. I'm not saying the tactics are perfect, okay JoeDowntown ?

1. It has paid for and created the web site www.downtowngr.org (no small undertaking regardless of the skeletal god awful background that makes me want to puke).

2. It has paid for the "Let's Go" campaign that is currently advertised on Rapid buses (formerly KIAS).

3. The DA has paid for a new walking map of downtown that highlights restaurants, retailers, bars and parking structures within the DID...it also is branded "Let's Go."

4. It has paid significant dollars to help make the Grand Rapids/Tim Allen/Pure Michigan radio spot a realilty that also uses "Let's Go" within the script.

5. It annually hangs and pays for the Christmas decorations and lights that hang along Monroe Center.

6. It partially funds an inebriate center at Mel Trotter that helps to care for and keep chronically intoxicated people from sleeping it off on our downtown streets, storefronts and sidewalks.

There are probably a lot more things I'm missing...that's off the top of my head. Again, argue tactics all you want and I'll agree with you much of the time..but the DA has stepped up and taken a big swing.

I agree with everything that JoeDowntown posted. Passion like his will collectively move this city to great new heights. Unfortunately I was not at the meeting with the DA that upset so many UPers. I share your frustration. This forum is full of bright people with sound ideas and passion.

GRDad, realtors and property owners share some responsibility in this as well. What are they doing to aggressively market empty spaces? What is their plan and vision for downtown retail? How are they going to execute their vision? They control the empty storefronts and lose revenue every month they stay empty...not the DA, DDA or CAA.

I hardly believe there is a landlord in this town that wouldn't rent prime retail space to a Coldstone Creamery just because Four Friends sells gelato...or that Coach is not welcome because we have a Groskopfs...or that Prada or Saks can't locate here because we have Boutique Emanuel in the Amway Grand.

But there seems to be some impression that this is the case. I say hogwash...developers and building owners need cash and tenants bring cash. They can't afford to keep out viable tenants.

Last I checked we have a Starbucks, Beaners and Four Friends all within about 30 yards of each other all selling the same products/experience. To a layman like me, all of them seem to be doing quite well. I would argue that Four Friends is largely full. I go there 3-4 times a week and am overjoyed that they seem to be thriving with big corporate competitors right in their face.

Let that be a lesson for anyone who thinks competition is bad or supports some crazy belief that downtown can't handle a mix of tenants competing in similar products/services.

The Cherry/Lake/Diamond success that you speak about is largly due to motivated and creative landlords. Guy Bazzani works a niche like nobody's business and it's been great for East Hills. But I wonder how many knick knack shops like Mena Imports, Global Infusion, Art Beat and Yours Truly will be thriving 2-3 years from now. I wish them all the best but it's going to be a tough go. (For the record, I don't believe Bazzani rents to any of the stores I just mentioned.)

Lastly, downtown GR is plagued by building squatters waiting for a huge payday from their dilapitated buildings that they won't sink a dime into improving them or downtown in the process. They don't even want tenants...they want to hold a building hostage until they get an unrealistic price. The refuse to engage in imaginative thought regarding their assets. May they all rot like their buildings...end rant.

I'm not saying the DA has done a "bad" job. And I understand it doesn't all fall on their shoulders, and that certainly the builder owners and realtors who represent them should be actively marketing their properties. But honestly, a rep of one of the downtown building owners was at the meeting, and basically said that they would be willing to sit on the space for 10 - 15 years to hold out for some magical boom that may or may not happen. A company that touts itself as one of downtown's biggest backers. Oyyvay.

I've spoken with a couple of developers/brokers since the meeting who are passionate about downtown, and their response was basically that we had met with the wrong people. It sounds like we need to revamp our strategy and take it in another direction, and look at pulling together other players in the market. The DA is welcome to give input, but frankly I'd prefer they just not stand in the way.

It probably would behoove us to find out what the DDA has planned with their new initiative, so that we don't criss-cross their efforts.

[PR-15]

I'm not saying the DA has done a "bad" job. And I understand it doesn't all fall on their shoulders, and that certainly the builder owners and realtors who represent them should be actively marketing their properties. But honestly, a rep of one of the downtown building owners was at the meeting, and basically said that they would be willing to sit on the space for 10 - 15 years to hold out for some magical boom that may or may not happen. A company that touts itself as one of downtown's biggest backers. Oyyvay.

I've spoken with a couple of developers/brokers since the meeting who are passionate about downtown, and their response was basically that we had met with the wrong people. It sounds like we need to revamp our strategy and take it in another direction, and look at pulling together other players in the market. The DA is welcome to give input, but frankly I'd prefer they just not stand in the way.

It probably would behoove us to find out what the DDA has planned with their new initiative, so that we don't criss-cross their efforts.

Agreed. I'm kicking myself I wasn't at this now infamous meeting.

I would add one thing, good developers find a way to make stuff happen NOW...they get creative. Mediocre ones tend to sit on empty buildings/storefronts while they wait for others (the City or some other entity) to create just the right conditions before they'll pull the trigger.

JoeDowntown suggested there was apathy within gov't or the DA or whoever...but there's plenty of developer/landlord apathy as well.

Edited October 6, 2007 by PR-15

[joeDowntown]

PR-15,

I'll follow up with another post later (don't have time now), but you definitely are right to say that there is apathy among some downtown property owners (thoughts on that later).

Two more points made by the Downtown Alliance that shows their complete apathy (or lack of marbles). I continue to pick at the Downtown Alliance only because I have first hand knowledge of their issues. I would be more than happy to meet with and discuss any city organizations, private developers, etc. that share in this sort of backwards thinking.

Paraphrased quote #1:

"We cannot go out and lure retailers that would be perceived as competition to existing retail".

So the solution is to let downtown retail remain in a horrible state? Retail helps retail.

Paraphrased quote #2:

"If Angina's (now Gina's) was really selling that many clothes, the market demand would bring other retailers downtown".

Ok, first they throw one of their own members under the bus. Secondly, I would say the opposite (and I know this from personal, first-hand experience of shopping with my wife ). Unless looking for a specific item that they *know* is available, people like choices. What if Gina's doesn't have the size my wife wants? What if my wife likes a pair of pants at Gina's, but also wants a top, purse, shoes, jewelry to go with it. Retail helps retail. Retail helps retail. If we say it three times will the city understand?

Shouldn't the city ask itself two simple questions? 1) Does retail need help. 2) If so, how do we help?

If the city can give incentives to developers (which they should), couldn't they do the same with retailers? Wouldn't it ultimately build on their tax base?

Retail is the face of the city? Is it really that important? Why do we harp on getting retail? We were asked this very same question by the Downtown Alliance (and it wasn't rhetorical).

Apathy.

Joe

[PR-15]

If the city can give incentives to developers (which they should), couldn't they do the same with retailers? Wouldn't it ultimately build on their tax base?

JoeDowntown/GRDad,

It's not unprecedented. The DDA gave $50,000 to River Bank Books That investment lasted 10 months. But I have mixed feelings about perceived "subsidies" to retailers. Which businesses do you choose to support? What about longstanding businesses that have struggled and survived on the thinnest of margins (and losses)? What if a longtime current retailer wants to expand? Do you give them an incentive too?

I'm all for developer tax credits, brownfield credits, ren zones, etc. It's been very successful. But what happens after that? The developers need to have imagination and action plan to draw the right retailers.

Frankly, most of the issues with empty storefronts aren't with the newer developments/revitalization efforts. I'm overgeneralizing here but the chronically stagnant storefronts tend to be with the landlords that have owned the buildings the longest. Or worse yet, the landlords are absentee in a sense and are represented by some of those unimaginative realtors that represent them. Is it apathy or lack of imagination/motivation?

The best developers have a face and a stake in this town and are extremely motivated to create a lifestyle/retail mix that is going to attract millenials to living downtown. Sam Cummings/Second Story, John Green/Elevation Group, Eric Weinsma/Terra Firma, Brice from Virgin Soil...they are the innovators. You bump into them all the time downtown, they're engaged.

Also, did you notice what age group these guys are in? Not really a coincidence, me thinks.

But I can guarantee if I see a Grubb/Ellis or Hinman Company "For Lease" sign up in a storefront window...it's probably gonna say "For Lease" in that window for a very, very long time. There's a disconnect with ownership/motivation.

Regarding the DA/City attitude of protecting existing businesses from competition...that's a serious cancer on retail progress. They seem to get that we need a big mix of bars/restaurants/entertainment. But not lots of different clothing/bookstores/jewelers, etc, etc????

Downtown is a pool where everyone with a vision should be able to dip a toe in...the water should be fine. If the water is a little funky around here it's because the kiddie pool is lukewarm and stagnant.

Edited October 6, 2007 by PR-15

[Rhino6885]

Anybody interested in a meet up soon? It would be great to take this passion from the web to the streets.

[radicaljoy]

So Chris Knape is reporting that we're getting a new healthful grocery store downtown. Anybody know anything more? With fresh produce and all will this be enough to keep downtown residents from having to drive out to Meijer?

By now you've probably seen the other thread about Health Hutt. The answer to your question (" . . . will this be enough to keep downtown residents from having to drive out to Meijer?"), IMO, is no -- but it's a start. It will probably bring some folk from areas around downtown there too. I'll be checking it out as soon as they open. I'd like to have one here in Easttown/EastHills, but it will be another option to shopping at Harvest Health at Eastern & Burton. I'm a typical 'murcan -- I like choice.

[Veloise]

...

Regarding the DA/City attitude of protecting existing businesses from competition...that's a serious cancer on retail progress. They seem to get that we need a big mix of bars/restaurants/entertainment. But not lots of different clothing/bookstores/jewelers, etc, etc????

Downtown is a pool where everyone with a vision should be able to dip a toe in...the water should be fine. If the water is a little funky around here it's because the kiddie pool is lukewarm and stagnant.

The DTA folk kept using the example of men's shoes. Can't bring in a retailer who might compete with the established businesses. (GRDad's approximate quote: "those are old man's shoes.")

One of the bullets on my summarized CV was 15 years of special event retail experience. I'd go to a special event (say, a bicycle tour), set up a booth. It was much more exciting for everyone when a bike shop, a clothing place, and a church crafts group joined lil' ol' me and my gift items. And when there were enough vendors to move from the school hallways into the gym, why, the ride would get bigger as more cyclists attended and brought non-riding SOs because "there's a mall." As one of the artisan vendors used to say, "you can't be an expo by yourself."

[GRDadof3]

JoeDowntown/GRDad,

Downtown is a pool where everyone with a vision should be able to dip a toe in...the water should be fine. If the water is a little funky around here it's because the kiddie pool is lukewarm and stagnant.

Totally agree PR-15. It sounds like we may need to redouble our efforts and try this again in a new direction. Your input into this would be greatly appreciated. If you want to set something up Rhino6885, let me know.

[wingbert]

Paraphrased quote #1:

"We cannot go out and lure retailers that would be perceived as competition to existing retail".

Paraphrased quote #2:

"If Angina's (now Gina's) was really selling that many clothes, the market demand would bring other retailers downtown".

Actually, they are exactly right. This is why the suburban malls and lifestyle villages have been so successful. They limit their retail mix to one store of every type so that none of the tenants compete with each other. People appreciate this lack of choice because it streamlines their shopping experience and the retailers benefit from the fact that only a limited group of shoppers with specific interests are attracted thereby reducing the number of window shoppers, impulse buyers, and bargain hunters that would detract from the time they would spend with destination shoppers. Just think how badly Rivertown Crossings would have flopped if they'd tried to feature Coach, Gap, J.Jill, Aeropostale, Old Navy, Express, New York & Company, Macy's, JC Penney, Kohl's and Younkers (and numerous others) all competing with each other... Doh!

[GRDadof3]

Actually, they are exactly right. This is why the suburban malls and lifestyle villages have been so successful. They limit their retail mix to one store of every type so that none of the tenants compete with each other. People appreciate this lack of choice because it streamlines their shopping experience and the retailers benefit from the fact that only a limited group of shoppers with specific interests are attracted thereby reducing the number of window shoppers, impulse buyers, and bargain hunters that would detract from the time they would spend with destination shoppers. Just think how badly Rivertown Crossings would have flopped if they'd tried to feature Coach, Gap, J.Jill, Aeropostale, Old Navy, Express, New York & Company, Macy's, JC Penney, Kohl's and Younkers (and numerous others) all competing with each other... Doh!

Uggh, don't even mention national retailers like that and downtown in the same breath!! Don't you know we don't want nationals downtown?

Here was another humorous quote "Who wants a GAP downtown? I sure don't." Well what about an Urban Outfitters then? "Oh, that would be OK".