The State of Downtown Grand Rapids Retail

[Allison Slater]

Hmm. Normally, I don't like coffee, never really been a fan of it, and I'm not sure which element it is about coffee that I don't like, but I do know that I have enjoyed Coke Blak, and French Vanilla Cappuccinos at gas stations (but not cappuccinos at Starbucks or Biggby's, they have that coffee element about them.) Is there perhaps any sort of coffee or cappuccino you will serve that you think I might enjoy based on my horribly vague description? If so, I'd love to give it a shot.. it sounds like you're really putting a lot of attention into the quality and flavour.

[jas49503]

Ah, no to the clover. I lost all hope in the Clover when the big green monster bought them out a few months back.

Don't get me wrong I still love a good cup of clover coffee, I had a clover cup of Tanzanian from Intelly last week actually. But I believe it was Dwayne from Stumptown Coffee that said, "I have yet to start giving my money to Starbucks and I'm not going to start now."

However, we are planning on doing all french press, no drip. We've been working/toying with this idea for a while and have talked to a few others that do it. Including Stumptown out in Portland. We're going to brew french press and filter the presses into airpots for dispensing. Sounds like a lot of work I know but we feel it will definitely be worth it from a flavor quality standpoint. I'm really excited about it actually. I just finished cupping some of the coffees we're going to be offering and they are stellar. Can't wait to share them with you all.

That's great that you are using french presses. the coffee tastes much better. It's what I use at home when I am not feeling too lazy. that was also the thing I loved about Ireland. at breakfast there they bring your coffee is a little french press. very nice.

[AlexPKeaton]

to the french press. There are very few places in down for consistently good coffee. Sometimes I'll get a good cup somewhere, but it's so hit or miss.

[darajeanne]

Ah, no to the clover. I lost all hope in the Clover when the big green monster bought them out a few months back.

Don't get me wrong I still love a good cup of clover coffee, I had a clover cup of Tanzanian from Intelly last week actually. But I believe it was Dwayne from Stumptown Coffee that said, "I have yet to start giving my money to Starbucks and I'm not going to start now."

However, we are planning on doing all french press, no drip. We've been working/toying with this idea for a while and have talked to a few others that do it. Including Stumptown out in Portland. We're going to brew french press and filter the presses into airpots for dispensing. Sounds like a lot of work I know but we feel it will definitely be worth it from a flavor quality standpoint. I'm really excited about it actually. I just finished cupping some of the coffees we're going to be offering and they are stellar. Can't wait to share them with you all.

You're making me excited to not be pregnant anymore (3 more weeks!). I cannot wait to drink some good coffee again! I can't wait to visit your place!

[Naomi]

Hello Everyone...I'm another member of the MadCap crew...

Hmm. Normally, I don't like coffee, never really been a fan of it, and I'm not sure which element it is about coffee that I don't like, but I do know that I have enjoyed Coke Blak, and French Vanilla Cappuccinos at gas stations (but not cappuccinos at Starbucks or Biggby's, they have that coffee element about them.) Is there perhaps any sort of coffee or cappuccino you will serve that you think I might enjoy based on my horribly vague description? If so, I'd love to give it a shot.. it sounds like you're really putting a lot of attention into the quality and flavour.

Coffee is certainly an acquired taste. The same chemical components that are responsible for its atypical attributes also provide coffee with its delightful aromas and flavors- chocolate, berry, citrus, etc. etc. Once we open, we would be more than happy to help you discover coffee. I would definitely suggest a traditional cappuccino. At about 6 ounces, it is a utopian marriage of velveteen foam, espresso, and steamed milk. All of our milk will be from Moo-ville Dairy in Nashville, MI. When steamed, it creates a naturally sweet canvas for the espresso. So as long as you are willing to try, we'll commit to consistently giving our best.

[GRDadof3]

Forgot to mention this earlier, but a credit union is going into the old Niehoff Gallery space (next to Fox Lofts). Not very exciting, but at least its not another vacancy.

[Parhelion]

Hey, I'll take a Credit Union, even though I agree it's not the boutique retail for which I was hoping. Any word on which one?

Also, what do you think about the state of downtown? I was talking to another downtown resident yesterday who is of the opinion GR's downtown is at a standstill and, in some ways, regressing. I see where he's coming from (from a retail perspective), but I tried to blame it on the economy (tough economy doesn't encourage people to want to start a new business downtown or otherwise invest here).

What do you all think? Other than 100 new coffee shops and a sandwich shop (Johnny's Lunch) replacing one of my favorite restaurant spots (Olive Express), I can't think of many positive retail things going on. I think if Little Bohemia and Gina's left Monroe Mall, there would be very little retail of which to speak. So depressing. . .

[GRDadof3]

Hey, I'll take a Credit Union, even though I agree it's not the boutique retail for which I was hoping. Any word on which one?

Also, what do you think about the state of downtown? I was talking to another downtown resident yesterday who is of the opinion GR's downtown is at a standstill and, in some ways, regressing. I see where he's coming from (from a retail perspective), but I tried to blame it on the economy (tough economy doesn't encourage people to want to start a new business downtown or otherwise invest here).

What do you all think? Other than 100 new coffee shops and a sandwich shop (Johnny's Lunch) replacing one of my favorite restaurant spots (Olive Express), I can't think of many positive retail things going on. I think if Little Bohemia and Gina's left Monroe Mall, there would be very little retail of which to speak. So depressing. . .

I started this whole retail thread, and the subsequent meetings, because I KNOW retail downtown will get worse than it is now before it gets better. Unfortunately, many city leaders believe that more residents downtown is the only savior for downtown retail. And we all know how that effort is going (canceled projects, empty Icon, etc.). Yes, there are some downtown residential success stories, but not nearly enough to get the 10 - 15,000 residents needed downtown to support its own retail. Grand Rapids' new construction housing market is only so big. So at some point, the pace of condo/apartment sales will not be able to keep pace with retailers trying to survive on downtown residents. The two trending lines will be grow too far apart.

The retail mentality downtown needs to switch to a regional mindset or downtown visitors are going to be looking at a lot of empty storefronts, which gives the impression that there is no life downtown. Plus, all the employment and student base being added to downtown right now is on the Hill, practically speaking too far from Monroe Center to add any kind of sizable impact.

The credit union story I think was in this week's Biz Journal.

Yeah, here it is:

http://www.grbj.com/GRBJ/ArticleArchive/20...Owned+Space.htm

But the Downtown Alliance still believes they have "momentum":

http://www.grbj.com/GRBJ/ArticleArchive/20...Momentum%27.htm

[Veloise]

Last night I was a participant in the Street Performer Series in DT Holland.

Wow.

I've been to the Tulip Time events. And I've wandered around during non-event days. This weekly street party is something that any DDA-type person ought to experience. Here is the schedule, with performer bios. http://holland.org/images/SPwebschedule.pdf (My group isn't listed, but we're connected to Corey Ruffin, who was asked to compile a marching band. Sure hope we are invited back.) This happens every Thursday evening, 6-9 pm, for most of the summer.

All of the retailers were open until at least 8 pm. The restaurants were doing well, as was the ice cream. (I did not notice any food booths or street vendors.)

Performers each bring a tip jar, and the series provides signage suggesting a compensation level. (According to the link, some performers recieve a $20 stipend, and the rest is up to them.) Last night the talent included a belly dancer (taped music; she was very happy when live music stopped and played), ventriloquist/puppeteer, lots of guitar combos, a mime/juggler/comedian, a juggler, and the balloon guy who appears at more public events than Psycho Petition Lady does here.

Family-friendly, no street fights, loads of fun, minimal cost to city/DDA/DTA. I get the impression that they have more performers than they can find room for. Unlike, say, BotM or Swing otM, the performers create lots of pedestrian movement, and generate no trash or cigarette butts or exhaust fumes. There's plenty of opportunity to visit and talk and build community. (I stuck around and interacted with the folks. Met someone from Zeeland; we had a lovely discussion about "feel the zeel" and KIAS.)

City of Windsor (Ont.) has an annual street performer weekend. Perhaps this could be tried out here one evening a month. we've already got one of the same jugglers every Weds night.

(GRBrit, was that you at the mime?)

Edited July 25, 2008 by Veloise

[GRDadof3]

Last night I was a participant in the Street Performer Series in DT Holland.

Wow.

I've been to the Tulip Time events. And I've wandered around during non-event days. This weekly street party is something that any DDA-type person ought to experience. Here is the schedule, with performer bios. http://holland.org/images/SPwebschedule.pdf (My group isn't listed, but we're connected to Corey Ruffin, who was asked to compile a marching band. Sure hope we are invited back.) This happens every Thursday evening, 6-9 pm, for most of the summer.

All of the retailers were open until at least 8 pm. The restaurants were doing well, as was the ice cream. (I did not notice any food booths or street vendors.)

Performers each bring a tip jar, and the series provides signage suggesting a compensation level. (According to the link, some performers recieve a $20 stipend, and the rest is up to them.) Last night the talent included a belly dancer (taped music; she was very happy when live music stopped and played), ventriloquist/puppeteer, lots of guitar combos, a mime/juggler/comedian, a juggler, and the balloon guy who appears at more public events than Psycho Petition Lady does here.

Family-friendly, no street fights, loads of fun, minimal cost to city/DDA/DTA. I get the impression that they have more performers than they can find room for. Unlike, say, BotM or Swing otM, the performers create lots of pedestrian movement, and generate no trash or cigarette butts or exhaust fumes. There's plenty of opportunity to visit and talk and build community. (I stuck around and interacted with the folks. Met someone from Zeeland; we had a lovely discussion about "feel the zeel" and KIAS.)

City of Windsor (Ont.) has an annual street performer weekend. Perhaps this could be tried out here one evening a month. we've already got one of the same jugglers every Weds night.

(GRBrit, was that you at the mime?)

The CAA, DDA and Downtown Alliance are working on something just like this (from April's Business Journal). Excerpts:

CAA Wants Downtown To Be More Active

Heacock wants the board to be more involved with downtown, even to the point of possibly sponsoring street musicians, mimes and jugglers on the streets near the convention center, the arena and other parts of downtown.

[GRDadof3]

Some pics of TC during the Film Festival last weekend. Sorry, didn't catch Michael Moore or Madonna (she was there screening and discussing her new documentary).

Some nice (new) infill:

Chris?

I had to artificially lighten this one so that you can see the nice streetwall of developments stretching along Cass Street going South from downtown:

I caught the news that evening and downtown TC merchants reported a 30% increase in sales over a usual summer weekend.

[blueradon]

I have 2 words for TC

Cherry. Republic.

=insert drool=

[Veloise]

The CAA, DDA and Downtown Alliance are working on something just like this (from April's Business Journal). Excerpts:

...Once the bruskers....

Buskers, only one R.

...You should forward that Holland event along to Jay, Veloise (if you haven't already). ...

No need, they lurk. (I'm sure Jay is sick and tired of yet another Veloise post with before & after banners fauxtoshopped in.)

[GRDadof3]

I have 2 words for TC

Cherry. Republic.

=insert drool=

Cherry Republic is in one of my shots.

Understandably a festival was going on, but I would put the number of shoppers downtown TC against any mall on a weekend, even Rivertown. During our Festival, there isn't a lot of shopping going on. Although, it helps to have shops to shop.

Here's the piece I saw (no video on their website):

http://www.tv7-4.com/news/news_story.aspx?id=168993

[GRDadof3]

Parlor at Cherry Market is open. I was headed toward the place mentioned in a Sunday paper article (in the former Democratic HQ) but found the Parlor first.

Beautiful woodwork. Lovely windows. Very nice Victorian graphics. Several nice wood & wrought iron benches out front, and a couple of hoop bike racks. (During my visit it looked like the TdF fan club; five cyclists and one car.) There's a restroom in the corner (more nice woodwork) and cold water for a refill.

It's pretty inside, with carefully chalked menu items (the Four Friends artist did *not* do these ones) and a white wire cafe set, just like what you'd expect to see in an ice cream parlor. wooden floor. Very spiffed up and clean, like a scene in The Music Man.

The ice cream is a brand I've never heard of. I had the tiramisu flavor, and when the packer accidentally cracked the waffle cone, she started over. That's a single scoop??? Holy moly, they must train these people at Jackson's All-Star Dairy! They aren't busy, and the view across Cherry is interesting.

Just one drawback, and it might be very seasonal: there's no A/C, and the freezers pump out a lot of heat. They desperately need a vent fan high up in the rear wall, or ceiling fans, or a big exhaust fan out the front door, or a side window that opens, or ivy growing on the west wall, or a cold front. Indoors was probably 20 noticeably degrees warmer than outside.

Riding past I noticed the Sweet Connections (?) place, which faces the lovely ICCF gardens. They are next. (From my house, I could crawl to either one with a broken leg.)

How come two scooped ice cream places in two blocks, and nothing DT? What brought me up Cherry was a hankerin' for the Friends' gelato.

Well here is someone's chance:

Owners of Johnny's Lunch are taking any and all applicants

..to lease the space next door for retail. What a great place for an ice cream/fudge/chocolatier. I don't know if you would even have to make that many changes to the interior, except make it a lot brighter (a bit dark for an ice cream place).

http://www.coldstonecreamery.com/franchise...quirements.html

[fotoman311]

Well here is someone's chance:

Owners of Johnny's Lunch are taking any and all applicants

..to lease the space next door for retail. What a great place for an ice cream/fudge/chocolatier. I don't know if you would even have to make that many changes to the interior, except make it a lot brighter (a bit dark for an ice cream place).

http://www.coldstonecreamery.com/franchise...quirements.html

If it has to be a chain, a Ben and Jerry's would be preferable for me. Otherwise, get me a cool local place with some character (a la Jersey Junction)...but, I'm not holding my breath.

[Veloise]

Well here is someone's chance:

Owners of Johnny's Lunch are taking any and all applicants

..to lease the space next door for retail. What a great place for an ice cream/fudge/chocolatier. I don't know if you would even have to make that many changes to the interior, except make it a lot brighter (a bit dark for an ice cream place). ...

"The partners at Johnny's acknowledged from the beginning they wanted to tie up the space if it was to be vacated to ensure another burger/hot dog place didn't move in next door." That sounds like one chain Rx tieing up an adjacent arterial corner so as to prevent Wal-Rite-CV from horning in. (We've all seen how well that works.)

Chris' tone seems a bit snide. (Are fans of the Friends supposed to smile and say, well, c'est la vie, Johnny's Coffee we'll love you too?) I doubt that a sweet shoppe could afford the place, given the lease amount and the seasonality of that trade.

My guess is: the Johnny's folks are looking at the land office business they are (probably not) doing on MC, and realized that sinking more revenue into that block is not what they want to do. If they don't develop the space, it'd be easier to get out of the lease.

(all the leases I handle contain a termination provision)

[mgreven]

I don't think anyone mentioned this, but another high-profile corner (MC and Monroe) where the salon used to be (I think it just shrunk, not closed) is going to be the home of Paul Collins Fine Art. Moving out of the AGP will probably give it a lot more visibility.

Edited August 7, 2008 by mgreven

[mgreven]

Yesterday, we noticed the Little Bohemia shoe store is moving back into the LB space and that small store has a "For Lease" sign in the window.

[Veloise]

Link to Holland's street performer permit application, handled by their DDA.

http://www.cityofholland.com/cihollandmius...ormapp-2008.pdf

[Parhelion]

Yesterday, we noticed the Little Bohemia shoe store is moving back into the LB space and that small store has a "For Lease" sign in the window.

I saw that, too. I'm kind of horrified at all the empty spaces on Monroe Center. Can't the DDA put some retail incentives in place to make it easier for retail in this down economy? If Little Bohemia leaves altogether, I'll be devastated.

[wingbert]

I saw that, too. I'm kind of horrified at all the empty spaces on Monroe Center. Can't the DDA put some retail incentives in place to make it easier for retail in this down economy? If Little Bohemia leaves altogether, I'll be devastated.

It often appears that there is a mindset from many of the downtown retail merchants that competition is bad. "I don't want another store/restaurant selling something similar setting up shop next door... and take those evil street venders and confine them in some woebegotten corner of downtown where they can't interfere with my business." I mean, sometimes I wonder if there are things that go on behind the scenes that don't exactly lay out the welcome mat and that is why you don't see any national retailers downtown. Of course, I also believe in UFOs, so I may be just paranoid.

I can go to Rivertown Crossings (though I'd rather not thank you very much) and find lots of stores selling lots of the same or similar stuff and guess what, that place is packed. Naturally, some stores don't survive but as a shopping environment, the place is full of people ready to shop.

Now set aside any actual details and just think in the macro sense because, hey, perception is reality. Reading the news lately you would see how Four Friends closed because their landlord wouldn't negotiate, Herkner bailed because nobody shops downtown, the city is looking to cut off the street venders at the knees, stir in a little pessimism about the economy in general, and you couldn't be blamed for not wanting to start a business down there.

[GRDadof3]

It often appears that there is a mindset from many of the downtown retail merchants that competition is bad. "I don't want another store/restaurant selling something similar setting up shop next door... and take those evil street venders and confine them in some woebegotten corner of downtown where they can't interfere with my business." I mean, sometimes I wonder if there are things that go on behind the scenes that don't exactly lay out the welcome mat and that is why you don't see any national retailers downtown. Of course, I also believe in UFOs, so I may be just paranoid.

I can go to Rivertown Crossings (though I'd rather not thank you very much) and find lots of stores selling lots of the same or similar stuff and guess what, that place is packed. Naturally, some stores don't survive but as a shopping environment, the place is full of people ready to shop.

Now set aside any actual details and just think in the macro sense because, hey, perception is reality. Reading the news lately you would see how Four Friends closed because their landlord wouldn't negotiate, Herkner bailed because nobody shops downtown, the city is looking to cut off the street venders at the knees, stir in a little pessimism about the economy in general, and you couldn't be blamed for not wanting to start a business down there.

And yet you'll find new locally owned retailers and restaurants opening on Cherry Street and East Fulton. The price per sf can't be the reason, because we were told by the Downtown Alliance that most of the downtown landlords are certainly willing to negotiate rent. And it's not like there is more parking in Uptown vs. downtown.

[suydam]

...

And it's not like there is more parking in Uptown vs. downtown.

This is true, but perceptions may not line up with this.

Example:

I go to Cherry Deli about once a week for lunch. I've never (in at least a year) parked further than 50' from the front door of the place.

I go to Yesterdog in Eastown about once a week as well. Same deal... never had to park further than the Eastown public lot next to the party store.

I go to Marie Catrib's and never find parking in their lot, but end up parked down the side street by Mangiamo's or right out front by Cobblestone.

I go to Blake's Turkey and Dog Pit with some regularity. I have to say... it's not as easy to get in and out of there from a lunchtime perspective. I use the 60-minutes-free garage above Big O's (yum) and walk up the street and around the corner. It's just the case that it takes longer and I park further away than when I go Uptown for lunch.

Does that stop me from going downtown? Of course not... I love going downtown. Would it stop others? It would appear so... when others (besides me) pick lunch destinations, they generally would rather drive an extra 5 minutes to park near a place than park and walk an extra 5 minutes.

I honestly think that explains some of the buzz in East Hills compared to Monroe Center.

What's more, many EGR and Forest Hills professionals commute through East Hills on the way home from work. Shops that are open and available between 5pm and 6pm are an awfully nice temptation (like strip malls on 28th St). Shops on Monroe Center are not always in the path of the traffic.

Those are just a few of my thoughts.

[plee30]

I agree with much of Suydam's comments; although, I feel these business districts represent something quite different. One is a destination and the other a neighborhood.

It's like visiting Chicago. You can either go to the big flagship stores on Michigan Avenue (essentially an open air mall with skyscrapers) and fight all the tourists looking up, or you can shop the exact same stores (minus the 5 other floors) in any of the neighborhoods (Lincoln Park, Wicker Park, Boystown, Bucktown, Wrigleyville, Lakeview, etc., have a more intimate overall shopping experience, and grab a drink or coffee afterward.

There's also very few walk able retail areas downtown. And the areas that are walk able (Monroe) make it very inconvenient for vehicle traffic. Or on the flip side, the places excellent for vehicle traffic have been overrun with bars (Ionia). I counted one day all the drinking establishments from an area that covered Leonard - Cherry to the N/S and the Grand River - LaGrave E/W. Try it yourself, and you'll be astonished as you add the numbers of alcohol related spaces versus retail. Makes you wonder if we should be issuing more resort licenses downtown or putting more emphasis on retail or other forms of business.

Edited August 12, 2008 by plee30