The State of Downtown Grand Rapids Retail

[Rhino6885]

As a local business operator, I make every effort to shop/eat/etc at locally owned businesses. I forego convenience to do this.

A few years back, I made a commitment to do the same thing. There's really not much that you need that you can't find locally. Yes, sometimes you pay more for that 6 pack of Founders from Martha's Vineyard, but it's worth it. Per Local First's website, about 73% of the money spent locally is respent locally while only 43% of the money spent at non-local firms stays in the economy.

Local First Website

Also, Vertigo, I have shopped in your store before. I bought a Thrice CD a couple years back when I was on my heavy music kick. Now, as I haven't purchased a CD in some time, I just listen to WYCE. Others in this forum may not shop at your store due to perceived demographics--16 - mid 20's, like vintage clothing, maybe have crazy hair or piercings. I'm not saying anything negative about that group of people, just that it seems to be your target market. You are definitely well represented throughout the city, as I cannot go anywhere without seeing a decal on somebody's car, helmet, shirt, etc. Also, I imagine that you have seen quite a change in business over the last few years due to the emergence of the .MP3 player and available online downloads....makes it tough. Anyways, with everything that's going on right outside of your front door, I can't imagine it will be too much longer until your foot traffic and sales start to increase....at least I hope so. Good luck man!

[GRDadof3]

Firstly, I apologize for my rant. It's becoming increasingly difficult in our current state of the economy to keep a retail venture going. The "brain drain" in this town is shocking as I've counted 25 customers who are leaving the state (in 07 already).

The evening of my initial rant was fueled by poor sales and a bit too much beer. Again, sorry.

As a local business operator, I make every effort to shop/eat/etc at locally owned businesses. I forego convenience to do this.

I'd like a city with a diverse retail mix and am willing to pay for this if in fact there is an upcharge.

I avoid the internet for purchases unless it's the only option.

I'd hate to live with the option for a book purchase only being Amazon.com.

And that was my drunken point...make the EFFORT to support what's already in your midst and the chances of local vibrant

retail increase. Really it's that simple.

I suspect that many of you could afford to spend $10 a week in the local downtown economy at whichever retail store you choose. Would that be a tough commitment to make?

Best, Herm

P.S. We're looking to hire a P.R. person...know of a good cheap one?

Thanks for being upfront and honest with the board Herm. I'm sure many of use have said things on here that we later regretted.

You bring up some excellent points about the brain drain. Related to a discussion going on in the other retail thread, it seems with every Bloom that opens, another locally owned business closes. I hate to be a pessimist, but there are serious mammoth economic problems happening in this State, and we are not immune to them. Many young people do not see Michigan as a viable place to settle down, and it's starting to affect middle-class families as well (even if they currently have a job). For every automotive Big 3 job lost, or supplier job lost, there are probably 3 - 5 ancillary jobs lost. Add to that the retiring boomers heading South and it's a perfect storm. We're a little more insulated from it here, but pick up a little of the mood of the rest of Michigan and people are seriously starting to compare Michigan to abandoned former Communist countries, and they don't ever foresee things getting better. The new developments and exciting things happening around GR are just barely keeping us above water. One hesitation or one slowdown in momentum and we're going to be headed downstream in my opinion. In other words, it's like GR has to take 3 steps forward just to make 1 step forward in momentum.

Secondly, while restaurants like Bloom are great additions, our entire metro region is judged by outsiders by our downtown. How many times have you (and everyone else) been on business trips or gone to visit family and friends in other cities, and you end up downtown? And if it's cool with thriving retail, art and entertainment venues, you think "Wow it would be cool to live here". People love to show off their downtowns (if they are nice). I have a lot of family in the Denver area, who mainly live in the suburbs, but every time we would go to visit they would take us downtown, not to the new mega-mall out in Broomfield or wherever. That same image applies to Grand Rapids. How does our downtown feel during the day? During the night? On weekends? On Sundays? Do visitors say "Wow, this would be a cool place to live!"

Personally I'm not advocating for a widespread leveling of blocks downtown and adding a mall with 2000 parking ramp spaces, or building a casino to patch the situation.

Sorry to sound so ominous, but I think those are the challenges ahead. That's why I think getting this group going will at least get some more ideas going, and possibly raise some more awareness of downtown. But it can't be all hype, there has to be real meat on the bones when people get downtown.

[oakesLife]

I heard the creative was killed internally before the city even saw the best ideas.

I hung out with a former co-worker last night who told me I was half right. My former company did come up with some good ideas that were killed internally but KIAS was actually the city's idea. I still can't totally fault the city because my former company should have told them it wasn't any good instead of moving forward. Hopefully the city will realize that it's not working and take steps to correct it.

[Rizzo]

Hold up... so downtown business paid $80,000 (?) to pick out their own idea? I'm sorry, but if I contract out to experts (for the sake of promoting my image) I expect advice and hand holding. It's depressing if HM gave good expert advice and downtown just said, "We're paying you money to shut up." It's even more depressing that HM would pass on giving advice. Either way what a waste of money -- I think some UPrs came up with much better slogans and branding ideas for free then what is currently presented.

Edited April 6, 2007 by Rizzo

[Veloise]

Hold up... so downtown business paid $80,000 (?) to pick out their own idea? I'm sorry, but if I contract out to experts (for the sake of promoting my image) I expect advice and hand holding. It's depressing if HM gave good expert advice and downtown just said, "We're paying you money to shut up." It's even more depressing that HM would pass on giving advice. Either way what a waste of money -- I think some UPrs came up with much better slogans and branding ideas for free then what is currently presented.

And it took us a few hours. And in some cases included usable graphics.

[FilmMaker]

And it took us a few hours. And in some cases included usable graphics.

Once again, the delightful voice of reality delivered in charmingly few words!

[Veloise]

Once again, the delightful voice of reality delivered in charmingly few words!

ETA: Happy to keep you reading, Scott! I'll be here all week.

Edited April 6, 2007 by Veloise

[Veloise]

I forgot something!

[tamias6]

Then what you are saying is if the State of Michigan indeed is destine to suffer the same dismal fate as a former communist block state, I.E. a chronically depressed economy with no signs of hope, then Michigan is nothing more than a hindrance to the city and greater metropolitan of Grand Rapids. Therefore, the people of Grand Rapids are going to have to grow up to the fact that Michigan will not nor ever again provide any benefits to this city, such as revenue sharing, properly funded public schools, maintaining state owned roads running though the city, etc. Thus Grand Rapids will need to reject the status quo, and find ways to sever as much as humanly possible its dependence upon the rest of the state and become self sufficient. In other words, GR needs to be a position to be able to say,"Fine! If you won't help us Michigan, we'll do it ourselves!"

Thanks for being upfront and honest with the board Herm. I'm sure many of use have said things on here that we later regretted.

You bring up some excellent points about the brain drain. Related to a discussion going on in the other retail thread, it seems with every Bloom that opens, another locally owned business closes. I hate to be a pessimist, but there are serious mammoth economic problems happening in this State, and we are not immune to them. Many young people do not see Michigan as a viable place to settle down, and it's starting to affect middle-class families as well (even if they currently have a job). For every automotive Big 3 job lost, or supplier job lost, there are probably 3 - 5 ancillary jobs lost. Add to that the retiring boomers heading South and it's a perfect storm. We're a little more insulated from it here, but pick up a little of the mood of the rest of Michigan and people are seriously starting to compare Michigan to abandoned former Communist countries, and they don't ever foresee things getting better. The new developments and exciting things happening around GR are just barely keeping us above water. One hesitation or one slowdown in momentum and we're going to be headed downstream in my opinion. In other words, it's like GR has to take 3 steps forward just to make 1 step forward in momentum.

Secondly, while stores like Bloom are great additions, our entire metro region is judged by outsiders by our downtown. How many times have you (and everyone else) been on business trips or gone to visit family and friends in other cities, and you end up downtown? And if it's cool with thriving retail, art and entertainment venues, you think "Wow it would be cool to live here". People love to show off their downtowns (if they are nice). I have a lot of family in the Denver area, who mainly live in the suburbs, but every time we would go to visit they would take us downtown, not to the new mega-mall out in Broomfield or wherever. That same image applies to Grand Rapids. How does our downtown feel during the day? During the night? Do visitors say "Wow, this would be a cool place to live!"

Personally I'm not advocating for a widespread leveling of blocks downtown and adding a mall with 2000 parking ramp spaces, or building a casino to patch the situation.

Sorry to sound so ominous, but I think those are the challenges ahead. That's why I think getting this group going will at least get some more ideas going, and possibly raise some more awareness of downtown. But it can't be all hype, there has to be real meat on the bones when people get downtown.

Edited April 6, 2007 by tamias6

[GRDadof3]

Then what you are saying is if the State of Michigan indeed is destine to suffer the same dismal fate as a former communist block state, I.E. a chronically depressed economy with no signs of hope, then Michigan is nothing more than a hindrance to the city and greater metropolitan of Grand Rapids. Therefore, the people of Grand Rapids are going to have to grow up to the fact that Michigan will not nor ever again provide any benefits to this city, such as revenue sharing, properly funded public schools, maintaining state owned roads running though the city, etc. Thus Grand Rapids will need to reject the status quo, and find ways to sever as much as humanly possible its dependence upon the rest of the state and become self sufficient. In other words, GR needs to be a position to be able to say,"Fine! If you won't help us Michigan, we'll do it ourselves!"

No, I'm not saying that Michigan will, but many people in the State are feeling that severe of a loss of optimism, and it will affect us. Especially even when state experts and economists say it will be 10 years+ before Michigan begins to recover. There are still a lot of companies in this area tied to the automotive industry. Which means Grand Rapids cannot sit on its laurels and just assume that things are going to take off, both downtown and in the metro area.

How that ties into downtown retail is another issue. But a vibrant downtown is one piece of the puzzle, so are good public schools, mass transit, vibrant neighborhoods centers, safe neighborhoods, and a number of different pieces to the puzzle.

[tamias6]

I probably went a bit over the top on my post. But Michigan's economy has always been cyclical to which (IMO) I see as being detrimental to Grand Rapids in the long term. That in mind, I'm wondering if Grand Rapids where in a state similar to Michigan in geo/ social/ political terms but historically and prospectively had a better economy, would this city be better off than it is now. Would Grand Rapids be a Nashville, Milwaukee, Minneapolis/ St. Paul, etc.?

No, I'm not saying that Michigan will, but many people in the State are feeling that severe of a loss of optimism, and it will affect us. Especially even when state experts and economists say it will be 10 years+ before Michigan begins to recover. There are still a lot of companies in this area tied to the automotive industry. Which means Grand Rapids cannot sit on its laurels and just assume that things are going to take off, both downtown and in the metro area.

How that ties into downtown retail is another issue. But a vibrant downtown is one piece of the puzzle, so are good public schools, mass transit, vibrant neighborhoods centers, safe neighborhoods, and a number of different pieces to the puzzle.

[chicagok]

i spent part of the afternoon today shopping part of downtown. it was cold and few people on the street. i have not been downtown in over twenty years as i no longer live here. there are plenty of restuarants/ coffeeshops available. quite a diverse selection. i was roaming the streets around 2pm so lunchtime was over, but most of the places had a few customers. this forum has put up the need for more retail. i don't see that many good retail sites left. the big places - the old herp's and steketee's have been converted to non retail. the space next to the men's store on ottawa has the window filled with messy desks of the business within. who wants to deal with a business that doesn't care what its image is? there are several new office building without retail space. if a retail company wanted to enter downtown there wouldn't be many good sites.

i walked monroe. little bohemia was interesting and i made a purchase. they have a lot of offbeat items. the bead selection is huge. i personally don't know what all the beads are used for, but people were perusing them. the low tables the beads were set on weren't very customer friendly. the selection of merchandise was vast - clothing, home furnishings, gifts, books. the retailer in me would like to see better space definition, but the atmosphere works. i also made a purchase at elliotts. the place looks dirty, unkempt, and not well organized. i don't understand retailer's who don't take an "outsider" look at their store and realize occasionally their environment needs a fresh coat of paint and a refocusing on what their actual business is. i would have purchased more at elliott's but they were unfamiliar with some of the magazines i was looking for. the gram's new building has me stumped. the only visually signing i found as to what this new building was to be were a few small signs on the monroe street side. i say i'm stumped about the building because i think an organization building a new cultural attraction could have used the construction fencing in a visually stunning fashion to make a bold statement that a new creative force was coming onto to the scene

my idea for a quick fix is a need to focus on the store windows. there are the public announcement of what lies within. could there not be a outreach between kendall school of design and the local merchants. maybe a program could be developed that would match students with a retailer to develop a street image. the students could get class credit and real life experience with a client. a contest with a cash prize for the best concept could be put together. well, enough of my ramblings.

[Vertigo]

I appreciate that you've acknowledged my apologies from my earlier "misdeeds".

However, I'm not sensing any response as to the actual support of existing retailers in this thread..which one of you will make the commitment to support us all?

As far as my shop is concerned...Yes, we have tattooed/pierced customers...we also have good clean upstanding customers buying everything from Miles Davis cds to the latest artist that pitchforkmedia.com recommends.

We are NOT an intimidating force in any way. You just need to stop in...away from the comfort and security of the internet and see what we have to offer..and what other retailers are selling as well.

The internet:

If there ever were a city/culture killing machine....this is it.

Use the internet for knowledge/information and take that to your local community/retailer.

Let us try to help you with your needs and desires. Please!

I have many customers that do just that...They want our presence in their community.

SO..HOW MANY OF YOU WILL MAKE THE COMMITMENT TO SUPPORT THE RETAIL COMMUNITY THAT IS ALREADY HERE?

Herm

Thanks for being upfront and honest with the board Herm. I'm sure many of use have said things on here that we later regretted.

You bring up some excellent points about the brain drain. Related to a discussion going on in the other retail thread, it seems with every Bloom that opens, another locally owned business closes. I hate to be a pessimist, but there are serious mammoth economic problems happening in this State, and we are not immune to them. Many young people do not see Michigan as a viable place to settle down, and it's starting to affect middle-class families as well (even if they currently have a job). For every automotive Big 3 job lost, or supplier job lost, there are probably 3 - 5 ancillary jobs lost. Add to that the retiring boomers heading South and it's a perfect storm. We're a little more insulated from it here, but pick up a little of the mood of the rest of Michigan and people are seriously starting to compare Michigan to abandoned former Communist countries, and they don't ever foresee things getting better. The new developments and exciting things happening around GR are just barely keeping us above water. One hesitation or one slowdown in momentum and we're going to be headed downstream in my opinion. In other words, it's like GR has to take 3 steps forward just to make 1 step forward in momentum.

Secondly, while restaurants like Bloom are great additions, our entire metro region is judged by outsiders by our downtown. How many times have you (and everyone else) been on business trips or gone to visit family and friends in other cities, and you end up downtown? And if it's cool with thriving retail, art and entertainment venues, you think "Wow it would be cool to live here". People love to show off their downtowns (if they are nice). I have a lot of family in the Denver area, who mainly live in the suburbs, but every time we would go to visit they would take us downtown, not to the new mega-mall out in Broomfield or wherever. That same image applies to Grand Rapids. How does our downtown feel during the day? During the night? On weekends? On Sundays? Do visitors say "Wow, this would be a cool place to live!"

Personally I'm not advocating for a widespread leveling of blocks downtown and adding a mall with 2000 parking ramp spaces, or building a casino to patch the situation.

Sorry to sound so ominous, but I think those are the challenges ahead. That's why I think getting this group going will at least get some more ideas going, and possibly raise some more awareness of downtown. But it can't be all hype, there has to be real meat on the bones when people get downtown.

[joeDowntown]

Chicagok,

Great perspective from an outsider looking in. I agree with your assessment of the windowscapes downtown. Not very inventive. I think your idea of Kendall students working with storefronts is another excellent idea. The Fulton/Ottawa ramp actually has boxes for downtown merchants to show off their wares. Not only is it under-utilized, most of the displays look like the seasonal displays of any middle school.

Image is really important. Elliotts is a great example of a store that could play on its heritage more. Emphasize the old time news stand / smoke shop aspect of the business. They also have terrible signage. I used to bring friends in there that were somewhat familiar with downtown but never knew Elliotts existed.

In Elliotts defense, they have taken a beating with the ongoing construction that has made access to their part of the road very difficult at times.

Thanks for the fresh perspective!

Joe

i don't understand retailer's who don't take an "outsider" look at their store and realize occasionally their environment needs a fresh coat of paint and a refocusing on what their actual business is. i would have purchased more at elliott's but they were unfamiliar with some of the magazines i was looking for. the gram's new building has me stumped. the only visually signing i found as to what this new building was to be were a few small signs on the monroe street side. i say i'm stumped about the building because i think an organization building a new cultural attraction could have used the construction fencing in a visually stunning fashion to make a bold statement that a new creative force was coming onto to the scene

my idea for a quick fix is a need to focus on the store windows. there are the public announcement of what lies within. could there not be a outreach between kendall school of design and the local merchants. maybe a program could be developed that would match students with a retailer to develop a street image. the students could get class credit and real life experience with a client. a contest with a cash prize for the best concept could be put together. well, enough of my ramblings.

[oakesLife]

Use the internet for knowledge/information and take that to your local community/retailer.

Let us try to help you with your needs and desires. Please!

I have many customers that do just that...They want our presence in their community.

SO..HOW MANY OF YOU WILL MAKE THE COMMITMENT TO SUPPORT THE RETAIL COMMUNITY THAT IS ALREADY HERE?

Herm

Herm, I applaud your efforts and commitment to keep Vertigo's doors open. I always try to shop at your place especially since i live just a block away. I totally agree with using the internet as an informational tool and then still shopping locally. I love that I can come into your store and tell you what bands I like and you or your employees can accurately suggest other bands I might like. I do still buy a song or two off itunes but when I'm looking to get a full album buying locally can't be beat. And I actually enjoy going into your store and seeing the range of customers. If I wanted to be around cookie cutter people I'd go to the mall. I have long since made the commitment to shop locally whenever I can, I just wish downtown was more sustainable so I wouldn't have to go to the waylands to get everything I need.

[joeDowntown]

Ok Herm, you got me. What are your hours on the weekends? I'll come down next weekend and buy some discs from you instead of being lazy and using iTunes.

Thanks,

Joe

I appreciate that you've acknowledged my apologies from my earlier "misdeeds".

However, I'm not sensing any response as to the actual support of existing retailers in this thread..which one of you will make the commitment to support us all?

As far as my shop is concerned...Yes, we have tattooed/pierced customers...we also have good clean upstanding customers buying everything from Miles Davis cds to the latest artist that pitchforkmedia.com recommends.

We are NOT an intimidating force in any way. You just need to stop in...away from the comfort and security of the internet and see what we have to offer..and what other retailers are selling as well.

The internet:

If there ever were a city/culture killing machine....this is it.

Use the internet for knowledge/information and take that to your local community/retailer.

Let us try to help you with your needs and desires. Please!

I have many customers that do just that...They want our presence in their community.

SO..HOW MANY OF YOU WILL MAKE THE COMMITMENT TO SUPPORT THE RETAIL COMMUNITY THAT IS ALREADY HERE?

Herm

[walker]

...I suspect that many of you could afford to spend $10 a week in the local downtown economy at whichever retail store you choose. Would that be a tough commitment to make?

For the record, I spend about ten dollars a week at Elliot's; two newspapers and a snack every weekday.

... i also made a purchase at elliotts. the place looks dirty, unkempt, and not well organized

It always looked like that, even a million years ago when it was across from the Pantlind and it was run by Don Elliot. I always thought the look is part of its old newsstand / tobacco store ambiance. Its newspaper and magazine selection isn

[starrfish]

I always thought the look is part of its old newsstand / tobacco store ambiance.

Me too. I used to go in there on the regular when I worked downtown. Wondering though if part of the unkempt look and feel of Elliott's is on purpose. You know, if it were any nicer, people may just loiter and read the mags right in the store and not buy anything.

*fish

[chicagok]

Me too. I used to go in there on the regular when I worked downtown. Wondering though if part of the unkempt look and feel of Elliott's is on purpose. You know, if it were any nicer, people may just loiter and read the mags right in the store and not buy anything.

*fish

an interesting retail concept. just buy "something" and go. most retailers would like their customers to at least feel comfortable enough to stay and look around. that's usually how one increases the dollar amount spent per person and thus increase profitabilty. i remember elliotts from being across the pantlind hotel. the emphasis was on a "wall of magazines." they seem to carry everything in print. now the impression i get is one of tiredness.

[GRDadof3]

an interesting retail concept. just buy "something" and go. most retailers would like their customers to at least feel comfortable enough to stay and look around. that's usually how one increases the dollar amount spent per person and thus increase profitabilty. i remember elliotts from being across the pantlind hotel. the emphasis was on a "wall of magazines." they seem to carry everything in print. now the impression i get is one of tiredness.

It's shabby chic! I agree that retailers need to be clean and organized or they don't get my business. This isn't Brooklyn.

[walker]

an interesting retail concept. just buy "something" and go. most retailers would like their customers to at least feel comfortable enough to stay and look around. that's usually how one increases the dollar amount spent per person and thus increase profitabilty. i remember elliotts from being across the pantlind hotel. the emphasis was on a "wall of magazines." they seem to carry everything in print. now the impression i get is one of tiredness.

I don

[joeDowntown]

So what is going on with the Retail Task Force. Did it meet? Was the meeting good?

I have my daughters soccer on Saturday so I didn't volunteer but I follow this thread with great interest. I have experience owning retail in a city that didn't have a retail identity, and have all kinds of ideas (as everyone else does) about what retail could be. Just wondering how things are progressing.

Joe

[GRDadof3]

So what is going on with the Retail Task Force. Did it meet? Was the meeting good?

I have my daughters soccer on Saturday so I didn't volunteer but I follow this thread with great interest. I have experience owning retail in a city that didn't have a retail identity, and have all kinds of ideas (as everyone else does) about what retail could be. Just wondering how things are progressing.

Joe

I haven't had a chance to reschedule a kickoff meeting yet. My weekday evenings are shot this week and most of next, and Saturday is out too. It will be hopefully later next week sometime in the early evening. PM me your email info Joe and I can include you in the invite.

[Veloise]

DDA casts Tim Allen as pitchman

(in today's print edition, no can find on-line)

DDA approved spending $140k over the next two years for marketing campaigns that will include Tim Allen narrating a commercial promoting DT. (He's been narrating the "Pure Michigan" radion spots.) It'll include $50k from the DDA and $40k from Travel Michigan.

Guess other famous natives weren't available. Gillian Anderson has almost become a "do you know me?" commercial, and that other one is still dead.

[FilmMaker]

DDA casts Tim Allen as pitchman

(in today's print edition, no can find on-line)

DDA approved spending $140k over the next two years for marketing campaigns that will include Tim Allen narrating a commercial promoting DT. (He's been narrating the "Pure Michigan" radion spots.) It'll include $50k from the DDA and $40k from Travel Michigan.

Guess other famous natives weren't available. Gillian Anderson has almost become a "do you know me?" commercial, and that other one is still dead.

Is this an attempt to play off of the broader Michigan campaign using Jeff Daniels?