WOW! (Hispanics and immigrants in NWA, part II)

[johnnydr87]

I agree its very sad...we need to get all the illegal mexicans and send everyone of them back to where they came from...I'm afraid that having all of the illegal mexicans here with no work is really starting to hurt our region a lot. They come here thinking they are going to have a better life, but once they get here and can't get a job because they are illegal they go and do what they have to survive and a lot of times that means hurting other people.

[masons_dad1]

Some people think it hurts our economy, but I've seen plenty of economists who say the exact opposite. It is a major problem I agree, but the exact ramifications of it on the US economy on the whole are less clear than most would have you think.

I often find that the people who decry illegal immigration the most are the ones who know relatively little about it and are simply using the popular anti-*illegal*immigration rhetoric as a means to justify their racism and/or xenophobia of a growing minority group in our country. I've seen the exact same thing with gay marriage where social conservates say it will break down the instituition of marriage and family values while in reality they are just using this as a means to justify their dislike of the homosexual population.

[astrife]

We can't afford to handle illegal immigration with compassion, it's too big and dangerous for that.

[masons_dad1]

I just felt that line needed to be bolded and separated from the rest of your post because of its dangerous implications. I'm sure something like this was said during World War 2: "We can't afford to handle Japanese Americans with compassion, there's too many and it's too dangerous for that." This obviously led to the Japanese American Internment Camps.

[astrife]

Boy, that one was way out there. How did you manage to compare what I said about "illegal immigrants" with "legalized citizens?"

[masons_dad1]

It has nothing to do with the fact that one minority group was legal and the other wasn't. I am trying to point out that situations where human beings are not treated with respect and compassion inevitably lead to us apologizing for it decades later. I'd really not like to be known in history as the generation that did something like that, and thankfully our government officials are dealing with this problem in a much better fashion.

[johnnydr87]

Oh! And the Japanese treated us with respect and compassion when they blatantly attacked Pearl Harbor, killing thousands of Americans. The Japanese were supposedly our "friends" when they attacked us. Hmmm, Mexico is supposedly our friends, but we have nothing to fear from Mexico, do we?

[masons_dad1]

Wow. This is the most foolish statement I have ever had the displeasure of reading.

I would love to put it in my signature, but that would be against forum rules.

[edensfall]

I'm totally against illegal immigration, but the post of the guy you are saying "word" to reeks of racism and xenophobia. I highly doubt this guy and you know the ins and outs of the economy and politics of it to come to such a dare I say stupid conclusion.

[johnnydr87]

Why do you waste bandwidth with your worthless comments? If you don't have anything to contribute to the discussion other than unwarranted attacks then just don't post anymore. Or maybe you don't understand the discussion enough to contribute to it. Maybe the foolish statement was the one that brought WWII or Japanese Americans into a discussion about illegal immigration. Do me a favor and don't touch your keyboard anymore. You can read these forums fine with just a mouse.

[masons_dad1]

Completely, utterly foolish comments. Going to a higher institution of learning would do you good. You're right, I should bow out of debates with you, and I should have never commented to begin with. It's pointless arguing a person who does not understand the basic principles of argumentation and logic.

[masons_dad1]

No, masons, the problem isn't that I don't under stand, it's that you don't understand. Time and time again, you post comments that show you are completely overflooded by the nuances of the topic, and you post replies--obviously hoping to be clever--but ultimately showing your brazen lack of grasp on the topic at hand.

Your writing is inprecise and sloppy, and it just hints of the greater underlying misunderstanding you have of the topics you discuss.

Let me respond to your comment:

Comment #1: You are implying that the Japanese AMERICANS were somehow involved in the Pearl Harbor attacks. Thus, you are justifying that we put them in internment camps. With that logic, German-Americans should have been put in internment camps.

Comment #2: "The Japanese were supposedly our "friends" when they attacked us." What are you talking about? Why were they our "friends"? Do you know what you're talking about? Are you bending history so that you can make a point (that happens to be wrong anyways)?

Comment #3: "Hmmm, Mexico is supposedly our friends, but we have nothing to fear from Mexico, do we?" (Your grammar is egregious in this, but I won't bother correcting you.) That's a completely idiotic comparison. In what capacity are the Pearl Harbor attacks and the illegal immigration problem from Mexico similar? Don't give me your trite "oh you just don't understand" response. The similarities between the two events are of the weakest kind, and you might as well draw parallels to Nazi Germany.

Completely, utterly foolish comments. Going to a higher institution of learning would do you good. You're right, I should bow out of debates with you, and I should have never commented to begin with. It's pointless arguing a person who does not understand the basic principles of argumentation and logic.

[KJW]

I'm sorry that this topic has gotten so heated, though sadly I did my part with my inferences on the "Bentonville Projects" thread. Hope I'm absolutely wrong on this.

Getting back to numbers:

The Northwest Arkansas Business Matters, the weekly tabloid insert in the Democrat-Gazette, has a cover story entitled "Riding the wave" about the huge growth in Hispanic services in this area. It also has this hispanic population breakdown for the NWA metro area:

1980

Madison: 54

McDonald: 118

Washington: 916

Benton: 568

1990

Madison: 111

McDonald: 121

Washington: 1,526

Benton: 1,359

2000

Madison: 436

McDonald: 2,030

Washington: 12,932

Benton: 13,469

2005

Madison: 597

McDonald: 2,757

Washington: 22,415

Benton: 23,996

A few notes:

- Are illegal immigrants included in the total numbers (49,765 in 2005, vs. 28,867 in 2000, 3,117 in 1990 and 1,656 in 1980).

If not, we likely have over 100,000 hispanics in the NWA metro right now.

- Note the growth from 2000 to 2005 alone. If the population is still increasing at current rates rough calculations show about 8,300 more hispanics would be in NWA now than two years ago.

- Note McDonald County as was mentioned previously...in 2005 it had nearly as many hispanics as Benton and Washington combined in 1990.

This article is an interesting read far beyond these numbers...I'd recommend buying the paper for it.

[mcheiss]

I'm sorry that this topic has gotten so heated, though sadly I did my part with my inferences on the "Bentonville Projects" thread. Hope I'm absolutely wrong on this.

Getting back to numbers:

The Northwest Arkansas Business Matters, the weekly tabloid insert in the Democrat-Gazette, has a cover story entitled "Riding the wave" about the huge growth in Hispanic services in this area. It also has this hispanic population breakdown for the NWA metro area:

1980

Madison: 54

McDonald: 118

Washington: 916

Benton: 568

1990

Madison: 111

McDonald: 121

Washington: 1,526

Benton: 1,359

2000

Madison: 436

McDonald: 2,030

Washington: 12,932

Benton: 13,469

2005

Madison: 597

McDonald: 2,757

Washington: 22,415

Benton: 23,996

A few notes:

- Are illegal immigrants included in the total numbers (49,765 in 2005, vs. 28,867 in 2000, 3,117 in 1990 and 1,656 in 1980).

If not, we likely have over 100,000 hispanics in the NWA metro right now.

- Note the growth from 2000 to 2005 alone. If the population is still increasing at current rates rough calculations show about 8,300 more hispanics would be in NWA now than two years ago.

- Note McDonald County as was mentioned previously...in 2005 it had nearly as many hispanics as Benton and Washington combined in 1990.

This article is an interesting read far beyond these numbers...I'd recommend buying the paper for it.

[Aporkalypse]

My only comment pm the immigration debate:

What's printed at the foot of the Statue of Liberty? Do you remember the statement?

It welcomed my ancestors when they came from Ireland dirt-poor and jobless seeking a better life.

I don't begrudge these immigrants this.

[Julles]

I won't even pretend to be as knowledgeable about history as most of you, or as well-read on current events.

I do have personal experience. My husband studied hard, excelled, and fought tooth and nail to get here from India in 1992. Once he got here, he put his nose to the grindstone, and worked his butt off to get the opportunity to stay. Due to red tape and paperwork snafus, it took him seven long years to finally get his green card. His sister was denied a visitor's visa for our wedding; since she was single and not a landowner in India, INS considered her too much of a risk. My husband appreciates every day he spends in this country, every opportunity. He has worked hard to assimilate in every way.

And every day people just walk across the border. And the taxes from his paycheck help them to stay.

I'm not a racist. I'm obviously not against legal immigration. I do, however, have a hard time finding a great amount of compassion for illegals.

[KJW]

Saw where the U of A is now having their baseball play-by-play simulcast in Spanish.

[johnnydr87]

I'm not a racist. I'm obviously not against legal immigration. I do, however, have a hard time finding a great amount of compassion for illegals.

[masons_dad1]

Some people even believe Global Warming is a hoax. It's not and neither is Illegal Immigration and I'm tired of people turning a national crisis into a petty racial issue. Why should we listen to these illegal protestors who scream "unconditional free citizenship for all!" when they should be protesting against their own government in their own country. How about an "unconditional free lunch for all!" But hey, it would be nice if some of us Americans are included in that free lunch starting with me.

BTW... I'm sure that at the time the Statue of Liberty was built that poem meant something, but this isn't the same America it was back then. This is a severely weakened America with the worst leadership in the world. Just look at how many international big businesses are dropping the Dollar for the Euro. Even Columbian drug lords prefer the Euro over the Dollar for payment. Maybe the only way to stop illegal immigration is to wait for the US Dollar to become even weaker than the currencies of the countries these illegals are coming from. Maybe they'll start swimming across the Atlantic to a more prosperous Europe or across the Pacific to a more prosperous Asia.

[db909]

Some people even believe Global Warming is a hoax. It's not and neither is Illegal Immigration and I'm tired of people turning a national crisis into a petty racial issue. Why should we listen to these illegal protestors who scream "unconditional free citizenship for all!" when they should be protesting against their own government in their own country. How about an "unconditional free lunch for all!" But hey, it would be nice if some of us Americans are included in that free lunch starting with me.

BTW... I'm sure that at the time the Statue of Liberty was built that poem meant something, but this isn't the same America it was back then. This is a severely weakened America with the worst leadership in the world. Just look at how many international big businesses are dropping the Dollar for the Euro. Even Columbian drug lords prefer the Euro over the Dollar for payment. Maybe the only way to stop illegal immigration is to wait for the US Dollar to become even weaker than the currencies of the countries these illegals are coming from. Maybe they'll start swimming across the Atlantic to a more prosperous Europe or across the Pacific to a more prosperous Asia.

[masons_dad1]

I think it's telling that the Spanish language papers use the term <i>undocumented</i> when the English papers say illegal.

I can't vouch for everyone, but my concern is that people who want to be Americans are denied the right because of quotas and other restrictions on legal means of immigration. If anyone without a felony record (or equivalent) was allowed to become a citizen of the USA, I'd be against illegal immigration too. That's not unconditional, it's just open. If it were not for such policies in generations past, i wouldn't be here today. Today's immigrants deserve the same chance.

[Arkansas Student]

This whole thread strikes me as a perfect example of how in some ways people believe NWA is becoming so cosmopolitian ("Look at our many Olive Gardens!!!), while in other ways it's stuck back in the post-depression era Ozarks ("Them dad gum Mexicans come in here and take all my healthcare!"). There has been a strong current of racisim in the Ozarks since after the Civil War, regardless of whether you think the illegal immigrant debate has any grounding in racisim (I do, personally, though it's not completely tied up there).

Who cares if this is a national crisis? First and foremost, this is an Arkansas problem for us. Some days people decry how much the federal government gets involved in local issues, but then when it's convenient everyone cries "Help me, Uncle Sam!" We need to deal with the problem ourselves. But I don't think the problem is just whether there are too many illegals in NWA. It goes much deeper than that.

How can you tell just by looking at someone if they are illegal or legal? I see people make that mistake everyday. And there are plenty of legal US citizens who are lazy, good-for-nothing drains on society, while there are doubtlessly plenty of illegals who contribute by building the houses we living, cleaning our public restrooms, and yes, even doing the "ugly jobs" most people would prefer not to do. So, from what I gather, lazy legal citizens are better than hard-working illegals? Because you know, once you're legal, you've got a safety net and don't really need to work again -- you will be taken care of. But illegals don't have that net.... they gotta work, or they starve.

Razorback fan said illegals are "dangerous." The kid @ VT wasn't an illegal, was he? Saying citizenship is an inidicator of someone's law-abiding leanings is not only a blanket statment but just plain stupid.

Follow the law: become a citizen. I fully support that. It's the right thing to do. But maybe the real solution is helping people become citizens, helping them see the benefits, and making the process reasonable. Many HS graduates out there probably know less about US History than you have to know to pass a citizenship test. We are supposed to be a country of innocent until proven guilty; we should first welcome, then assist, then reject the ones that can't make the cut. It's that simple.

[bobdreamz]

Oh! And the Japanese treated us with respect and compassion when they blatantly attacked Pearl Harbor, killing thousands of Americans. The Japanese were supposedly our "friends" when they attacked us. Hmmm, Mexico is supposedly our friends, but we have nothing to fear from Mexico, do we?

Regardless, there is no similarity between the treatment of "legalized" Japanese Americans during WWII and the treatement of illegal immigrants who are breaking the law by being in this country.

Thankfully, our government is creating laws like HR4437, which DID pass through the House and was only barely dismissed by the Senate due to mass rioting by millions of Hispanics throughout the US. Illegal immigrants will be dealt with in due time, even if it means enforcing the immigration laws already in place that makes aiding illegal immigrants punishable by imprisonment and fines and also allows for the immediate deportation of ANY illegal alien found on US soil. Any illegal aliens that already started breeding on US soil should be placed into special camps that I like to refer to as "Freedom Towns," very similar to the "Freedom Town" from the movie Scarface. I don't want to hear about how inhumane that would be because it's a LOT more humane than the living conditions these illegal aliens fled from.

[cowbreath]

Can you pass the U.S. citizenship test?

http://www.wxpnews.com/LOA1HQ/070417-Citizenship-Test

[cocothief]

The poem by Emma Lazarus is nice, but its just a poem.

As for immigration, we have the most open immigration in the world. We accept 2 million per year from all over the world who go through the proper channels and become citizens.

We are not talking about immigration.

We are talking about illegal immigration.

People who break our laws to come here.

People who commit document fraud and identity theft to work here.

Those are serious problems, in my opinion. We are a nation of LAWS first and foremost. Allowing these people to skirt our laws is a problem.

The complete idealist believes EVERYONE should have a right to come to America to pursue a "better life".

The complete xenophobe believes NO ONE should.

The idealist isn't realistic and believes there is something magical about the landmass that comprises the U.S. which creates opportunity. There isn't anything "magical" here that doesn't exist in Mexico or Africa except LAWS and a population that for the most part abides by and respects those LAWS. We must uphold that, or we will cease to exist as a nation. By our very existence as a nation of immigrants, little binds us but our laws and common rights. Illegal immigration erodes some of the thin threads holding us together IMHO and cheapens what it means to be an American citizen.

The complete xenophobe is a hypocrite because his ancestors fled poverty and/ or persecution to come here.

I fall in between. My cynicism and opposition to illegal immigration is fed by my observation that its a corporate thing more than a compassion thing when it comes to our government. My opposition is also fed by what I see as non-assimilation and the disruption and degradation of existing communities as a result.

WE HAVE PLENTY OF LEGAL IMMIGRATION TO THIS COUNTRY. MORE THAN ANY OTHER NATION ON THE PLANET.

We need to enforce our laws and protect our communities, schools and public services from being overburdened and diminished.

Cheap labor isn't a good enough reason to start throwing out law and order.