The Gateway Site

[GvilleSC]

I am concerned about adding anything at the site that could increase traffic congestion at this gateway. Does it have to be a structure or retail? I can't get enough of the green in Greenville and would have no problem with another great tree lined outdoor space.

The thing is that the sale of the land was originally meant to be used to help pay for the Bilo Center. Even 10 years later, I'm pretty sure this is still true, hence the arena's financial difficulties. The price over the years has increase as downtown has become more and more attractive. As a result, when the site is sold, it's going to go for a lot. A developer is going to want to get the most bang for his buck and that's going to translate into lots of space to lease or sell, whether it be residential, office space, or retail. I really don't think there is way around it, and I'd rather not see the city step up to pay for a park on the site. Think about the noise, that's not where I'd want to go to hang out when Falls Park and McPhearson Parks are just up the streets. Also, it's the gateway, I think the city want to make a statement to visitors, rightfully so. A lot of people are blown away by our downtown and the opportunity to increase the "WOW" factor is too great to pass up IMO. I think we can count on a building or several.

By the way, Welcome to UP, gvegascple!

Edited April 11, 2007 by GvilleSC

[gvegascple]

The thing is that the sale of the land was originally meant to be used to help pay for the Bilo Center. Even 10 years later, I'm pretty sure this is still true, hence the arena's financial difficulties. The price over the years has increase as downtown has become more and more attractive. As a result, when the site is sold, it's going to go for a lot. A developer is going to want to get the most bang for his buck and that's going to translate into lots of space to lease or sell, whether it be residential, office space, or retail. I really don't think there is way around it, and I'd rather not see the city step up to pay for a park on the site. Think about the noise, that's not where I'd want to go to hang out when Falls Park and McPhearson Parks are just up the streets. Also, it's the gateway, I think the city want to make a statement to visitors, rightfully so. A lot of people are blown away by our downtown and the opportunity to increase the "WOW" factor is too great to pass up IMO. I think we can count on a building or several.

By the way, Welcome to UP, gvegascple!

Great points, I agree with the benefits of more "wow" as people arrive downtown and also with the Bi-Lo Center's needs to gain returns on their investment and I certainly do not want them to loose any money. There is also a growing need for more residential units (that don't cost 350,000 dollars and up) to help supplement growing downtown retail needs especially north of the West End.

P.S. Thanks for the welcome, glad to be here!

[gs3]

There is also a growing need for more residential units (that don't cost 350,000 dollars and up) to help supplement growing downtown retail needs especially north of the West End.

Excellent point.

When you look at this site from the air, it's quite sizable. Anyone know the size? Would be nice to see multiple buildings with a street between (much like the internal street in Riverplace) to help create a "town center". One building could be cost effective condos, one high end, one offices and all have street level retail. Gateway Commons....Gateway Center......Gateway Town Center.....Church Street Station (ooops, Orlando has that one taken).....Church at North......just throwing out names here.

It is a real plus that this has never sold. As GvilleSC states, this piece of land will bring in much more money now that Greenville is coming into it's own.

Welcome gvegascple!

[Greenville]

This is very interesting news about the gateway site! There is certainly a lot of potential for it...

My hope is that the higher land cost for this site will urge a developer to build up to maximize their investment. A couple of 15-20 story buildings would look great here!

Edited April 11, 2007 by Greenville

[erm1981]

^^^ Thats what i hope happens.

[breed]

The site, if you include the entire triangle, is about 2.25 acres.

Based upon a parking study undertaken by the city last year, the parking garage across the street is almost completely empty during the week. If the pedestrian bridge that connects to the garage got a bit of a makeover, it might lend itself well to a high-end development, although having parking that is technically off-site (something common-place in larger markets) is a tough sell locally... at least right now.

It would have to be something truly special to work. Maybe better suited toward retail... or maybe some kind of entertainment venue... a museum, perhaps? It might not be a bad place for a transit node as well.

[RestedTraveler]

The sale of the gateway site is on the City Council Meeting Agenda for Monday night.

[breed]

I've heard less-than-promising stuff on the potential Gateway development... which got me to thinking... what would work there? It would have to be something unique that won't be put off by the unfriendly traffic.

Something comparable to the Jay Pritzker Pavilion in Millennium Park in Chicago might work. Of course, it couldn't be on the same scale, but close. We already have a comparable facility in Heritage Park in Simpsonville, but having a comparable higher-end facility downtown would add to Greenville's downtown in a big way.

http://www.bluffton.edu/~sullivanm/illinoi...umpavilion.html

[Greenville]

I've heard less-than-promising stuff on the potential Gateway development...

So based on what you have heard, is it dangerous for us to expect to see a 25-27 story building on that site?

[gvegascple]

Since it's the gateway site, and the traffic is a nightmare there, how about more of a gateway type structure? Lets give the tall-building and iconic-something folks a nod and make a tall space needle esque spire or perhaps a St Louis Arch entrance with an observation deck to view the mountains.

[btoy]

Since it's the gateway site, and the traffic is a nightmare there, how about more of a gateway type structure? Lets give the tall-building and iconic-something folks a nod and make a tall space needle esque spire or perhaps a St Louis Arch entrance with an observation deck to view the mountains.

I live downtown, I driave past this site everyday. It is almost never a nightmare. Even during rush hour during a Bi-Lo center event with traffic back down into 385 there is no more than maybe 10 min extra tops. That is not a nightmare; it is life.

[Galley]

I was watching "American Inventor" today. This week's episode was taped in Tampa. There was a shot of a large stainless steel arch that appeared to be some type of a gateway into the city. Something like that might be nice where I-385 ends.

[breed]

I live downtown, I driave past this site everyday. It is almost never a nightmare. Even during rush hour during a Bi-Lo center event with traffic back down into 385 there is no more than maybe 10 min extra tops. That is not a nightmare; it is life.

I don't think traffic is that bad either, but for this market that property is a tough sell. I can't think of any developed locations that are currently functioning with six lanes of traffic on one side, five on the other, and three on the third. Whatever happens with the site, it has to be something special enough to overcome that.

The one thing that bodes well for something (anything) happening with this property is the low price the developer paid.

[btoy]

I don't think traffic is that bad either, but for this market that property is a tough sell. I can't think of any developed locations that are currently functioning with six lanes of traffic on one side, five on the other, and three on the third. Whatever happens with the site, it has to be something special enough to overcome that.

The one thing that bodes well for something (anything) happening with this property is the low price the developer paid.

The City gives property away, they always ask to little, The site and Main & Broad is the biggest example and now this. Rumor has it that they turned down a bigger offer because the developer wasn't local.

Edited July 20, 2007 by btoy

[vicupstate]

The City gives property away, they always ask to little, The site and Main & Broad is the biggest example and now this. Rumor has it that they turned down a bigger offer because the developer wasn't local.

There was a RFP on Broad and Main, wouldn't those be available for public inspection? I doubt the city turned down a different offer strictly because it wasn't local. It may have been a less desireable project, or the developer was less able to pull it off. Of course, who you know always can get in the picture too. I hope that wasn't the case.

As far as the Gateway site, it is a white elephant in many respects, and to get anything reasonable for it would be a blessing at this point. The land was been under contract a few times already.

[btoy]

There was a RFP on Broad and Main, wouldn't those be available for public inspection? I doubt the city turned down a different offer strictly because it wasn't local. It may have been a less desireable project, or the developer was less able to pull it off. Of course, who you know always can get in the picture too. I hope that wasn't the case.

Oh, I was referring to the Gateway Site.

[gs3]

When are we supposed to hear more about this project?

[GvilleSC]

However long a market study takes I guess?

Speaking of which. Who does such a thing? Is it formal or just a general look at what's there?

[whitehourseview]

However long a market study takes I guess?

Speaking of which. Who does such a thing? Is it formal or just a general look at what's there?

Well, I don't know about this specifically, but I know folks who work at market research firms and have clients in business, non profit, and government to do that sort of work. Even Sen. Demint got his start at his own market research firm off of Laurens road.

[btoy]

from G-Main:

Pazdan-Smith is the architect for the 25-27 story highrise proposed for the gateway site. They are teaming up with DLR Group out of Kansas City to design the building. Renderings should be ready for release in September.

[breed]

from G-Main:

Pazdan-Smith is the architect for the 25-27 story highrise proposed for the gateway site. They are teaming up with DLR Group out of Kansas City to design the building. Renderings should be ready for release in September.

That bodes well.

[vicupstate]

I had an idea I thought I would share for commentary.

The city could buy back te Gateway Center property at the original purchase price. The developer would probably be glad to get it's investment back, as it is obvious that this has not moved forward to any big degree. This site has had it's challenges to say the least from other deals that fell through.

Once having the property back, the city would offer to jointly build a combined city-county administration building with the County. The city would provide the land and the parking, which is already in place at the existing garage. The city would reimburse itself from the land purchase by selling the existing city hall. The county could pay for the building since it would need most of the space and is getting the land and garage for free. I would expect the building would need to be at least 10 stories, maybe 20. Operating expenses and mangement of the building would be shared based on square footage used per government. Florence City/County already do this in their City-County Complex facility, so there is an example to follow.

Pros:

* Since the land and building would be under the direct control of the city, there would be no chance that the building would be lackluster or not the 'landmark' that they (and we UPers) all want.

* Virtually every floor would have incredible views of both Downtown and Paris Mountain (and on a clear day even farther). Not a bad thing when the President of some major industrial prospect is chatting with the City/County officials about expanding to the area.

* County employees would be closer to the restaurants DT, whereas it is quite easy for them now to just leave the surburban parking lot and head south.

* The Gateway site egress has always been a BIG issue in the private sector projects, but that wouldn't apply here so much, because there is no 'competition' to a government building.

* The County Square property could be set up as a TIF district to provide additional funding of this plan.

* The County Square site redevelopment would be a catalyst to better connect DT with the residential areas and the Master Plan for Haynie-Sirrine. There is a vast amount of now vacant land on Church St that would increase in value substantially. Without a doubt, the Church Street corridor would see more interest from developers.

* The city's recently revised master plan calls for expanded development of both County Square and the Bi-LO Center area.

* The County would be free of the County Square building, which is expensivve to maintain.

* The vast, 30 acre County Square site would be available for sale with no acreage 'held back' for a replacement county facility. The sales price would certainly pay a big chunk of the expense of the new building.

* The 30 acre canvas that County Square would provide could be developed very densely and it's incredible views would be a major selling point for condos, offices, etc.

* A gapping hole in DT area (Gateway site) will not only be filled, but would be a major showplace and an icon of local pride and progress.

* The City Hall site would be available for redevelopment just as it is increasing in value due to the Main and Broad project. Once the economy turns, it would no doubt get some interest.

* Whatever went to the city hall site could potentially (and hopefully) have more of a 24-hour impact on DT and Main Street , which a City Hall would never be able to do.

* The county offices would be immediately adjacent to the county's other major building, the courthouse, for whatever benefit that might bring.

*Working in the same building would allow personal relationship to develop between the staffers and public officials of the two governments. That would be a good thing.

*The city could get the first floor council chambers that it wants.

Cons:

* It would be a complicated deal that would require both governments to come to a major agreement.

* There would have to be contracts for the city hall and county square properties, before the plan could go very far in implementation.

I realize it would have been better to do this before selling the parcel in the first place, but that is water under the bridge.

Thoughts, more Pros and cons that I missed?

[distortedlogic]

I would be all for it provided that the building would truly be iconic, and that the current county square site be used for something of very high density including residential and at least one true highrise. But... as I have maintained before, i just don't see these type developments happeningin DT anytime soon, there just isn't a demand for true large scale office highrise type development, and I think the lack of progress on any such proposal reflects that. Perhaps in about 10 or 15 years. Also, I don't see the county putting up millions for that type of a building.

[vicupstate]

The scenario assumes that selling County Square coupled with the TIF, will pay for the new building, with the understanding that land and parking expenses are already covered. Theoretically, the County would not have to cough up new funds.

I think the expense of parking is what keeps most office projects from DT. My hope is that with a site that large and many users, the parking costs would be shared to an extent that it would be more reasonable, and therefore more competitive with the burbs.

[gman430]

Vicupstate, I sent your email to the city manager and this was his response:

Thanks for the thoughtful e-mail. At some point exploration about a City/County complex might prove to be interesting. I am not sure that the old auditorium site would be the best location for public access, but it certainly would be dramatic. Please be aware that the developers of this site are very interested in proceeding and have done a great deal of work outside of the public eye. They have prepared plans and have done a good bit of marketing work. Project highrise is anticipated to be around 30 stories with a mix of apartments, condos, and hotel. In this present economic and financial market it has not been feasible to proceed. This is really true for almost all projects around the country. It is pretty much those projects that were far enough along that have proceeded. The site owners would not be interested in selling this site back to the City. This is also something that would be fairly infeasible since we would not be in a favorable position to market our existing site either.

Thanks for your thoughts.

Jim Bourey

Edited April 27, 2009 by citylife