The Gateway Site

[distortedlogic]

Thanks for sharing your email, it does contain some very encouraging comments for this project! Hope to hear more about it soon.

[vicupstate]

Thanks for sharing your email, it does contain some very encouraging comments for this project! Hope to hear more about it soon.

Indeed. If the Gateway project proceeds, I think we would all love to see a project of that size go there.

[Greenville]

Bourey's email response was polite and encouraging. I am glad to hear that the Gateway site developers are working hard and doing things behind the scenes in preparation for this project. It's no guarantee, but I'll take their supposed determination over Bob Ellis's amotivation any day of the week.

[goodbye]

I know this question is based on nothing more than pointless speculation at this point, but it would be interesting to learn whether Mr. Bourey is referencing a solitary 30-story highrise or the previously mentioned pair of highrises totalling 30 stories combined. Neither plan would be disappointing news in this economy, not to mention during this long highrise drought in Greenville.

[GvilleSC]

I know this question is based on nothing more than pointless speculation at this point, but it would be interesting to learn whether Mr. Bourey is referencing a solitary 30-story highrise or the previously mentioned pair of highrises totalling 30 stories combined. Neither plan would be disappointing news in this economy, not to mention during this long highrise drought in Greenville.

I was wondering the same thing... Surely it's the sum of the previously rumored two towers. However, I would not complain if a 30 story tower were to grace Greenville's skyline.

[Greenville]

I was wondering the same thing... Surely it's the sum of the previously rumored two towers. However, I would not complain if a 30 story tower were to grace Greenville's skyline.

This would be in addition to the potential highrise involved with Project New Year. It seems that these are complementary rather than conflicting projects, since Gateway is mostly residential and hotel, while New Year is thought to be corporate.

[Greenville]

Vicupstate, I sent your email to the city manager and this was his response:

Thanks for the thoughtful e-mail. At some point exploration about a City/County complex might prove to be interesting. I am not sure that the old auditorium site would be the best location for public access, but it certainly would be dramatic. Please be aware that the developers of this site are very interested in proceeding and have done a great deal of work outside of the public eye. They have prepared plans and have done a good bit of marketing work. Project highrise is anticipated to be around 30 stories with a mix of apartments, condos, and hotel. In this present economic and financial market it has not been feasible to proceed. This is really true for almost all projects around the country. It is pretty much those projects that were far enough along that have proceeded. The site owners would not be interested in selling this site back to the City. This is also something that would be fairly infeasible since we would not be in a favorable position to market our existing site either.

Thanks for your thoughts.

Jim Bourey

We haven't heard anything about this project in a while, but hopefully Jim Bourey's email to g-man in April still holds true. Anyone have any new info to share?

[vicupstate]

I thought someone said this project was dead.

[gman430]

Dead? No. Still on hold? Yes.

[distortedlogic]

For the most part, "on hold" has meant dead around here. Still keeping my fingers crossed though...

[cutiger]

I was driving by the Gateway site this evening and noticed "for sale" signs on the green wall at the East North Street/Church Street intersection. Not sure if these signs have been here for awhile, but I assume the most recent proposed project is "officially" dead??

[gman430]

I was driving by the Gateway site this evening and noticed "for sale" signs on the green wall at the East North Street/Church Street intersection. Not sure if these signs have been here for awhile, but I assume the most recent proposed project is "officially" dead??

Not suprising. The project is pretty much dead and has been for sometime now. Did the signs say which company was selling the site? They are definitely new.

Edited December 26, 2009 by citylife

[Greenville]

Not suprising. The project is pretty much dead and has been for sometime now. Did the signs say which company was selling the site? They are definitely new.

The Gateway project has not been "pretty much dead" for some time now. Although we have not head much publicly, Jim Bourey himself said not too long ago that things were happening behind the scenes with the project and that the owners were committed to making it a success. I'm not saying that couldn't have changed in the interim, but this project is not one that was declared dead a long time ago.

They were obviously in a holding pattern due to the economy, and perhaps they have decided that the wait won't be worth it. I just hope it ends up in the right hands, because this site needs to be developed. Hopefully the city can get involved somehow.

[GvilleSC]

The Gateway project has not been "pretty much dead" for some time now. Although we have not head much publicly, Jim Bourey himself said not too long ago that things were happening behind the scenes with the project and that the owners were committed to making it a success. I'm not saying that couldn't have changed in the interim, but this project is not one that was declared dead a long time ago.

They were obviously in a holding pattern due to the economy, and perhaps they have decided that the wait won't be worth it. I just hope it ends up in the right hands, because this site needs to be developed. Hopefully the city can get involved somehow.

Well, hopefully it might be developed in such a way that compliments and goes along with the new plan for downtown. This area known as the gateway district has some very critical components, with this site being one of them... Hopefully any City involvement will lead to a very positive product !

[cutiger]

Not suprising. The project is pretty much dead and has been for sometime now. Did the signs say which company was selling the site? They are definitely new.

The site is being sold by the Furman Company. Sorry for the slow response...

[distortedlogic]

Is Furman the one who currently owns the building? Anyone want to email Jim Bourey back to see if they can get any details on how this one bit the dust? Man I just don't know what to think about this site. It has already been soooo long. I don't think anyone though it would still have the green monster in 2010, but it could be many many years now. Perhaps a "gateway" projest is just not feasable here. Perhaps they should just put up something. A few offices a a deli would be better than the green monster.

Edited December 29, 2009 by distortedlogic

[Greenville]

Is Furman the one who currently owns the building? Anyone want to email Jim Bourey back to see if they can get any details on how this one bit the dust? Man I just don't know what to think about this site. It has already been soooo long. I don't think anyone though it would still have the green monster in 2010, but it could be many many years now. Perhaps a "gateway" projest is just not feasable here. Perhaps they should just put up something. A few offices a a deli would be better than the green monster.

I disagree. We've waited a long time for something worthwhile on the Gateway site, and I would be extremely disappointed to see something crappy go there just because we're desperate. We have invested this much - why give up now?!?

There is no reason why we can't at least have an attractive 20-25 story building that gives our skyline a nice boost and also contributes to the city's master plan for this neighborhood of downtown. Lowering our standards for this site is something I believe we would regret over and over again moving forward. It is that important.

I think the Marick guys had a good idea to have a hotel, condos, and apartments there rather than office space. Either could work, though. If the next developer wants to do something besides a highrise, they should consider somewhat of a destination development with unique restaurants and/or retail that is not offered anywhere else in the area (and definitely not downtown). Have a small lifestyle center with 3-5 stories. Ground-level restaurants could include places like Dave & Buster's, a fun bar like Yard House, Grape Wine Bar, BD's Mongolian Barbecue, etc. Have a well-known fitness center there for residents to use (and perhaps downtown workers at Liberty Square as well). Heck, get Barnes & Noble or Joseph Beth to get on board. We need to think big here, because local retailers would certainly fail (since the perception is that this area is "by itself" - even though it isn't). I am not sure how retail would work there, but I think it could if it is the right kind to truly draw in the people. I am thinking young professional/upwardly mobile crowd - slightly different from the family feel of parts of downtown. Make this the "really fun" area/entertainment district. The Bi-Lo Center would complement that really well.

I'm not sure how big the Gateway site is, but if it's built in an urban fashion with everything up on the sidewalk on all sides it would maximize the space. This would be a nice spot for arena goers both before and after an event, as well as attracting regular patrons who want a different feel from Main Street. And we're only talking about a couple of blocks off of Main, so the walk would certainly be doable for most. But it has to be different than stuff people can get somewhere else.

Edited December 29, 2009 by Greenville

[distortedlogic]

Greenville in principle I absolutely agree with you. But at some point it becomes kind of like cousin Eddie (from Christmas Vacation) holding out for a management position. It has already been over 12 years. How much longer are you willing to see the green monster in hopes that something signiture come to the spot; 10 more, 20 more, 50 more years? Remember that some of the failed projects here were not even "signiture" quality. As much as we would all like to see a signiture building here, I would rather see something more commonplace (still of quality) than to see the green monster for 12 or more additional years. If we knew it would happen in the next few years then I would be willing to wait. But I am ready for the green monster to go away.

[Greenville]

Greenville in principle I absolutely agree with you. But at some point it becomes kind of like cousin Eddie (from Christmas Vacation) holding out for a management position. It has already been over 12 years. How much longer are you willing to see the green monster in hopes that something signiture come to the spot; 10 more, 20 more, 50 more years? Remember that some of the failed projects here were not even "signiture" quality. As much as we would all like to see a signiture building here, I would rather see something more commonplace (still of quality) than to see the green monster for 12 or more additional years. If we knew it would happen in the next few years then I would be willing to wait. But I am ready for the green monster to go away.

I don't think we necessarily have to hold out for an iconic skyscraper for the Gateway site (although we would obviously love that), but I do think we should expect something new, dense, and beneficial for our downtown. A willingness to compromise is understandable, but putting a few offices and a deli there just because it's something besides the green wall would be a huge mistake IMO.

[Birdbrain]

I don't think we necessarily have to hold out for an iconic skyscraper for the Gateway site (although we would obviously love that), but I do think we should expect something new, dense, and beneficial for our downtown. A willingness to compromise is understandable, but putting a few offices and a deli there just because it's something besides the green wall would be a huge mistake IMO.

Despite getting near-desperate to see something/ANYTHING in place of the BIG VOID, I have to agree that rinky-dink office buildings do not constitute a "Gateway." Really - if GVille is the downtown showplace for all other cities to emulate (see "How outside views Greenville" threads) then how can the city allow anything other than a SIGNATURE LANDMARK?

(Yes, I know, the city is not a single entity that decides what goes in there. I occasionally grasp reality...)

Whatever goes in there, I hope someone visits Buckhead first for some ideas. Amazing architecture there, both sublime and grotesque, but always interesting.

[vicupstate]

Since the last plans for this site have obviously fallen through, I thought I would re-post my previous idea for this site. I have corrected some typos and added one new 'Con' and several more 'Pros'.

I didn't get much commentary the first time, apparently because there seemed to be private plans in the works for this site. Now that those are out of the picture, I'd love to read some more input.

The city could buy back the Gateway Center property at the original purchase price. Once getting the property back, the city would offer to jointly build a combined city-county administration building with the County. The city would provide the land and the parking, which is already in place at the existing garage. The city would reimburse itself from the land purchase by selling the existing city hall. The county could pay for the new building since it would need most of the space, and is getting the land and garage for free. I would expect the building would need to be at least 10 stories, maybe 20. Operating expenses and management of the building would be shared based on square footage used per government. Florence City/County already does this in their City-County Complex facility, so there is an example to follow. I believe Orangeburg has a similar setup for a joint facility as well.

Pros:

* Since the land and building would be under the direct control of the city, there would be no chance that the building would be lackluster or not the 'landmark' that they (and we UPers) all want.

* Virtually every floor would have incredible views of both Downtown and Paris Mountain (and on a clear day even farther). Not a bad thing when the President of some major business or industrial prospect is chatting with the City/County officials about moving to the area.

* County employees would be closer to the restaurants DT, whereas it is quite easy for them now to just leave the suburban parking lot and head south.

* The Gateway site egress has always been a BIG issue in the private sector projects, but that wouldn't apply here so much, because there is no 'competition' to a government building.

* The County Square property could be set up as a TIF district to provide additional funding of this plan.

* The County Square site redevelopment would be a catalyst to better connect DT with the residential areas and the Master Plan for Haynie-Sirrine. There is a vast amount of vacant land on Church St that would increase in value substantially. Without a doubt, the Church Street corridor would see more interest from developers. This would be simultaneous to the streetscaping that is already set to take place on Church St.

* The city’s recently revised master plan calls for expanded development in BOTH the County Square and Bi-LO Center areas.

* The County would be free of the County Square building, which is expensive to maintain.

* The vast, 30 acre County Square site would be available for sale with no acreage 'held back' for a replacement county facility. The sales price would certainly pay a big chunk of the expense of the new building.

* The 30 acre canvas that County Square would provide could be developed very densely and its incredible views would be a major selling point for condos, offices, etc.

* A gaping hole in DT area (Gateway site) will not only be filled, but would be a major showplace and an icon of local pride and progress. Asheville already does this with its City Hall.

* The City Hall site would be available for redevelopment, just as it is increasing in value due to the Main and Broad project. Once the economy turns, it would no doubt get some interest.

* Whatever went to the city hall site could potentially (and hopefully) have more of a 24-hour impact on DT and Main Street, which a City Hall would never be able to do.

* The county offices would be immediately adjacent to the county's other major building, the courthouse, for whatever benefits that might bring.

*Working in the same building would allow personal relationship to develop between the staffers and public officials of the two governments. That would be a good thing.

*The city could get the first floor council chambers that it wants.

* Construction costs are down due to the recession, so this is an opportune time to get a relative bargain on the construction. It would also boost our down economy.

* This would be a bold project that would encourage the private sector to do likewise. Private money follows public money, and this would be a significant expenditure of public money.

* The functions currently served in the Municipal Court building on North Main (next to the 400 North Main condo) could be moved to the new building as well. This would free up that site for sale to a developer also. The city has considered this idea in the past.

* Between the Municipal Court Building, City Hall and County Square, about 35+- acres of land would be added to the tax rolls, in exchange for about 3 acres at the Gateway site.

* Given the location, it would allow a new building to be added to the skyline, that would NOT interfere with the pedestrian scale of Main Street.

Cons:

* It would be a complicated deal that would require both governments to come to a major agreement.

* There would have to be contracts for the city hall and county square properties, before the plan could go very far in implementation.

* The adjoining properties that are owned by Canal Insurance would have to be added as well, so there would be that expense. All of the property in the Church-E. North-Beattie block is not one parcel.

I realize it would have been better to do this before selling the parcel in the first place, but that is water under the bridge.

Edited January 1, 2010 by vicupstate

[mallguy]

Vicupstate, I think that's a great idea. The City Hall site is under-utilized- with a foul-looking government building on what should be a prime site for a commercial development- and if Bell Tower Mall worked once (it did for a while- even with nothing around it other than a downtown that was going downhill, and it had a poor choice of anchors- Woolco that went bankrupt and Edwards that was bought by Wal-Mart), perhaps a residential/retail development on the site could be done and succeed once the economy picks back up.

The Metropolitan development in Charlotte could be a good model for County Square's redevelopment- a big-box/residential development, next to the center city.

[distortedlogic]

VIc it sounds good for the most part. I agree that it would help give the city the ability to ensure that it is a true "gateway." However, realistically (I know, that word you guys hate )it seems like way too much to get a new county building, especially when the county would be required to foot most of the bill. The county looking to use proceeds from the sale of county square to help pay seems too iffy to me. Perhaps in a different economy, but county sq could easily sit with the old offices vacant for many years. This would also put a lot of sq footage of unused office space on the market which, although we hope would get redeveloped into a dense multiuse project, could help to deter other projects from going forward, ie Riverplace, etc.

[vicupstate]

VIc it sounds good for the most part. I agree that it would help give the city the ability to ensure that it is a true "gateway." However, realistically (I know, that word you guys hate )it seems like way too much to get a new county building, especially when the county would be required to foot most of the bill. The county looking to use proceeds from the sale of county square to help pay seems too iffy to me. Perhaps in a different economy, but county sq could easily sit with the old offices vacant for many years. This would also put a lot of sq footage of unused office space on the market which, although we hope would get redeveloped into a dense multiuse project, could help to deter other projects from going forward, ie Riverplace, etc.

The City would be contributing the land and an expensive parking garage, so they would NOT be getting a discount of any kind. Any imbalance could be worked out based on the square footage each government would receive in the finished building.

NO ONE would buy the County Square just to re-lease the existing space. It would be a HUGE under-utilization. They would demo what is there, and build new. That's the only way a developer could justify paying sufficient money to make the deal work. That said, a developer could keep himself busy for YEARS with 30 densely developed acres. They could even postpone doing garage parking until the latter phases since the site is already so large and paved already.

The Riverplace argument has real merit, but there will always be SOME project SOMEWHERE in DT (ie Washington Square)that would be in competition to anything done with County Square no matter when it is done.

For ANYTHING to EVER happen with County Square, the County will have to build new somewhere else. With this proposal, we also get a lot of side benefits. Hopefully by the time the construction ended, the economy would be on an upswing from where it is today.

Edited January 1, 2010 by vicupstate

[B&R]

That is a good plan.

I have preferred the idea of a mixed use development there to bridge the space between the BiLo Center and Main St. but there are also reasons why a major office complex, that would be used in the day and work week, would work with the BiLo - which gets a lot of use at nights and on the weekend. A parking garage at the Government center could be available for BiLo patrons most of the time it is needed.

It doesn't seem that far from County Square to the West End restaurants and it seem to be a pleasant walk with the Park and Governor's School nearby but I have no idea what County Square employees actually do when lunchtime comes around. Where do they go?

The County Square property should have great potential as a dense residential area with some light retail or office added. Because of the size of the property it could be developed incrementally as Vicupstate suggests. I think development could move very fast.